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Post by grunners4 on Jul 13, 2011 6:42:42 GMT
Thought I would open up a new thread regarding Andrew and Steve's conversation here: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=books&action=display&thread=533I DID IT - 3 decades ago i suggested we get away from the 'applications of Kata' terminology and instead use the 'implications of what the Kata is implying' . I see it used everywhere now = Job Done! = Sorry for being self indulgent and having a satisfying rant there! XXXXX Hmm my turn to be dumb butt Steve Am I reading you correct when you are saying ''get away from the 'applications of kata' terminology'' you are saying : - We should not be looking for 'the' application but rather find the principles behind what these applications are showing us. Charles Staley & Bob Orlando talk about techniques as the 'what to do's' and principles as the 'why to do's'. Myself I like to learn the principles. Over the last 27 years I must have been taught 1000s of techniques/combinations, how many can I remember? Next to bugger all. What I look for now are the principles behind what is being taught then I can make it up as I go along. I use this principle of looking for principles in just about everything I do, work and play. If we talk about principles, in your opinion what would some of these be? Just a couple to get started: 1) A block is not only a block but a strike 2) A jump is often a throw 3) Two handed blocks are often locks (i'm a poet.... ) 4) The direction you are facing is relative to your opponent Care to add?
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Post by superjock on Jul 13, 2011 10:06:15 GMT
Float, sink, swallow, spit.........stance will give you a clue as to which applies. There can also be combinations of these two or three working at the same time. Locks = bend and twist. Counter locks = go with it and reverse it with another lock. Muchimi = once you make contact with your opponent stick to him. Gyroscopic rotation think applying force in more than one direction. Block & counter with same hand....if your strike misses hit him with the same hand on the way back. Elbow to hand = shearing motion. Turns may be take downs. Look at the footwork in the kata it may explain a lot. Drill the kata backwards, forwards, in confined space. Look at the techniques before and after...are you starting your defence from the right point in the kata. Drill a generic initial response = all encompassing head block. Get your mates to attack you to the head without telling you which hand they are going to use. Avoid crying like a girl when you get hit. You need a flinch response that will serve if you get taken by surprise. Block stick to him then apply your kata. Have a beer
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 13, 2011 12:15:36 GMT
There will be over-arching core principles in all kata which are obvious.The principles of unsoku, ma-ai, embusen etc. But also key principles to each kata or set of kata which are encapsulating core teachings and they will be as it were a sub-set of principles. Then variations on those sub-sets which are there for the individual to discover for themselves. It is a massive subject and difficults to generalise except in general terms. Pick a Kata then ask the same question, the answers will be different!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 13, 2011 12:17:00 GMT
Practise each of the techniques of karate repeatedly. Learn the explanations of every technique well, and decide when and in what manner to apply them when needed.” – Anko Itosu
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 13, 2011 12:34:50 GMT
A principle I try to get students fully conservant with, because once understood it will help you understand any and every technique fully and thus be able to now the: What to do Why to do It when to do it where to do it when not to do it what speed to do it how to control it to your advantage how it is part of a synergistic process that has important consequences in relation to what happens next and 'the whole of the technique or combination of techniques' how to do it smoothly with no 'added/cosmetic and contrary to correct body mechanics' aspects to it where and when and how to add kime and how to to make the initial technique transition into the next technique In essence study everything (and I mean everything) in it's component parts to enhance the complete technique itself and it's influence upon additional techniques and this of course includes withdrawal and defencive postures/strategy and tactics. all of the above includes the requirement to consider not only the individual techniques but also the factors such as timing, distancing, balance,footwork, accuracy etc etc etc that have such a profound influence on the actual application of the technique/s being studied. this principle is the intimate and anylitical study of the 'Five Stages of Technique'Which are: Phase 1. Inception = a study of everything (and i mean everything) relevant to the start position of the given technique. Phase 2. Outward flight path = a study of everything (and i mean everything) relevant to the outward flightpath of the technique. Don't be confused by the word outward - this would also include techniques that actually come towards you. in essence this is the stage between initiate and Impact and includes everything that occurs in that phase of technique Phase 3. Point of Impact = a study of everything (and i mean everything) relevant to the point of impact of the technique. this includes not only a study of effective kime but also ensuring that in Phase 2 everything possible has been considered and structured to ensure that at the point of impact has been identified and actioned to stabilise and enhance the impact potential. Phase 4. Return Flight Path = a study of everything (and i mean everything) relevant to the way in which the technique is withdrawn from the point of Impact. be mindful that this will often include how the initial technique transitions in a part of the next technique and ensuring that this is a smooth and positive motion. Phase 5. Finish = a study of everything (and i mean everything) relevant to the way in which the technique finishes and this of course includes not only how it may transit into a second technique but also how the technique may finish with appropriate and advantageous Guard positions etc by studying everything in this manner you are able to be specific in ensuring that each stage is not only performed as perfectly as possible as a component part but also how it smoothly moves from previous phases and on into the next phase to create a deeply positive synergistic process. this applies to study of Kata, Kihon and Kumite in both basic and advanced formats. I apologise for the rather short explanations above but i am sure you can all understand that a complete analysis and description of what is reguired and why it is required would take (and in Fact , after bloody hours of typing and editing, is ) a whole chapter in a book including diagramatical and photo images to enhance understanding. sorry fur awl de spleink misdakes mi ti-pin is shute! ;D ;D ;D ;D oh and may i respectfully suggest you ignore Superjocks final advise - 'Have a beer' ONLY ONE don't talk daft Andrew! have several LOL! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by superjock on Jul 14, 2011 3:53:45 GMT
Going through some hazard awareness stuff today prep-ping for some training I have to deliver to our supervisors and found these gems in a 'hazard prompt sheet'. Mechanical: Entanglement hair clothing etc. Friction/abrasion Cutting Shearing Stabbing/puncturing Impact Crushing Drawing in Fluid injection Ejection Nip points With the exception of one, (you choose) this is what we should be trying to do to our aggressors. There are a few more like bending, twisting and posture in the ergonomics section. Karate, work, work, karate All the bloody same P.S. don't listen to that Fujicolt bugger doesn't know what he's talking about, got a hangover now. One beer is enough
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 14, 2011 10:01:25 GMT
Read the above, developed a headache and missed out all the intermediate steps and went straight for the beer.... was that right?
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 14, 2011 10:07:10 GMT
Is that not the "Fluid Injection" stage?
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Post by kensei on Jul 14, 2011 12:45:04 GMT
After now 32 years of training in Karate I am finally starting to realize three things..... One...the masters that I trained with winged it for the most part when it came to Kata! Two...Their masters winged it for the most part when it came to Kata! Three...every training class could and should end with beer! Seriously, I find that we are trying to understand more and more as time goes on and we are not standing for the same old stories and BS that were passed on to us. People like Steve are doing research into Kata that mostof our instructors and their instructors never really found a need for. They were to busy kicking each other in the nuts and head...not in that order! Personally, I think that Kata can be and could be so many different things that you can not lay out a single application that is "THE" application for a move. I think that is not an issue, its the beauty of the Kata. A double hand block can be a lock, or it could be a double hand block, a strike or just about anything that your mind can make of it....but does it work. That is were I am at in my training. Not only is it possible, but is it useable! I remember one of my seniors saying that a down block is simply a down block and challenging me to show him it was something else....in one move he was on his back and I said "oh, its a throw"......Man was he pissed! The point being that all the fancy words, phrases and the like that we make up is only good if we can apply it in a SD situation. Talk and write all you want...get yer arse on the floor and try it...thats the key!
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 14, 2011 13:17:46 GMT
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Post by kensei on Jul 15, 2011 1:33:12 GMT
Steve, By no means am I saying that all the research you have done is a waste of time, You above all else should see the benefits of research when working and applying what you have learned. What I am saying is that if you aren an intellect first and last and dont try to really apply what you are leraning...then what is the point? By no means am I saying that people who go out and learn more or stretch their practice into research are doing something wrong. What I am saying si that when someone sits behind a desk and writes a book, pushes their BRAIN to come up with fancy terms and writes about them...their is no point unless they can get out on the floor and actually do them. One should never remove training from their daily practice to sit back and read and think about Karate...its a physical thing! I respect the hell out of people like yourself who go out and research and apply the concepts you are learning and forming...What I dont respect are people who put them selves out as experts and dont actually strap on a gi ( or belt...or shorts and a tee shirt) and get out on the floor and push themselves to apply the concepts they are talking about. I know of one gent that is seen as an expert who admits that he bairly does Kata anymore. He is a fantastic writer who can argue and push the verbal attacks to the limits, but then he does not actually do Karate anymore! How the hell can you be seen as a expert or even a Karate student if you dont actually do Karate? That is all I am saying.... And for the record..It is ALWAYS my turn to be rude
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 15, 2011 2:31:12 GMT
Yes Dear - christ he gets more like the wife everyday! but back to the thread - get yer point but had Nakayama Sensei NOT recovered from that Skiing accident and only been able to write about Karate instead of being able to continue to Teach it = I woulda wanted the books he woulda produced! I also know many karateka - no longer actively training that could put a gi on tomorrow and definitely teach far better than many I could name and probably more than keep up with them in a class as well. Mmmm..... Oh Dear - row coming on here me thinks!
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Post by superjock on Jul 15, 2011 3:47:40 GMT
I can't argue worth a toss but the gi still gets sweaty and I love beer :-)
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Post by kensei on Jul 15, 2011 14:05:39 GMT
Andrew, Me thinks you know more than you let on..and just proved it with that comment Steve, Their are two things that will put me off a Karate "Instructors" faster than anything.... one is poor attitudes...demanding respect and not earning it, Ego! Feeling like they are entitled to things they are not and general "Bow to me...I AM SENSEI" BS If you dont have time to set up for class, do your own marketing and run a bloody dojo...and expect everyone that sees you to be humbled by your black cottan strap round your gutt...then sod off ye bloody wanker (Did I sound British their...really wanted to...didi I???) The Second is the "Do as I say...not as I do" instructor who likes to lecture, turn out books (web posts...web sites and blogs) who has no intention of doing Karate anymore. Now I am not talking about a high level instructor who has been injured, or an instructor who is so old that he can not perform the way he used to...keeping in mind most older instructors still strap on a belt and wear their white PJ's on the floor and even work out! No I am talking about the duffus that puts on his gi and marches around..has not thrown a kick in private or a dojo in years, or the guy that gives up Karate, does not do a Kata or kick for years and just because he went to Japan 10/15/20 years ago still feels he is some kind of expert. I would NOT read a book, blog or anything from someone so far out of touch with Karate! Now, Let me put it to you this way, would you read a book about brain surgery from a author that did learn nerology 15 years ago, who did do surgeries 10 years ago...but has not done any in 10 years, has not kept up on nerology in 10 years and basically started a guarden and is a DECADE out from being a nerologist.....I woudl hope not..and if so...GET THE HELL AWAY FROM MY HEAD! Its like a Cop who tries to teach self defense or other police who has sat in a rocking chair for a decade...the laws changed, everything has changed...I want the guy that is in their doing the surgeries, or the guy on the street using his skills! Thats all I am saying. I dont want a "academic" teaching me or trying to write fancy crap about a subject he has not done in more than a decade....unless its a biography and or historical book...but a technical guide? Not unless he has been on the bloody floor using it!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 15, 2011 15:40:24 GMT
Hear Hear !
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 16, 2011 1:26:52 GMT
Crikey BOTH JAMES's Do the following reports mean I should continue working on my book or is that it - I am knackered now so: _ - no use to anyone and shouldn't be listened to - have a 'few' health probs so shouldn't be given Respect and called Sensei in the Dojo - and my training experience, study, research and subsequent 'knowledge' would not be regarded as 'current and useful to others' and thus all this work i am doing trying to write a 'Different and hopefully informative' book is a waste of time and i should just dump it and accept no one will be interested..... BOYS I am wounded and sobbing here! Help me out and give me hope PLEASE!!! Sensei Hyland and guest instructors Sensei Desilva and Sensei Terry Oliver are entirely humble, approachable and friendly and all get stuck in with the evening's socialising helping us all to feel relaxed and have fun. They are approachable and helpful in a manner rarely seen and it has a distinct positive effect on the whole event.
Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=friendshipcourses&action=display&thread=492#ixzz1SE6DcEy6
Sensei Hyland is unfortunately currently dealing with a bilateral fracture in his spine and is therefore, at the moment, physically extremely limited. However he has called upon his encyclopaedic knowledge of Karate and related subjects and teaches via very detailed explanations and the ingenious use of various home made equipment to illuminate the information in an inventive and informative fashion that I have never witnessed before.
Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=friendshipcourses&action=display&thread=492#ixzz1SE6TY3Zd
However, despite their kind and helpful demeanour outside of the Dojo it is abundantly clear that, when Steve, Rod and Terry are in the Dojo in 'Sensei' Mode, you would NOT want to face any of them if they were protecting a loved one (a thought process repeatedly put to us to help raise effort and spirit!) as they would indeed be ferocious and skilful adversaries.
Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=friendshipcourses&action=display&thread=492#ixzz1SE6fcp1f
Unfortunately Sensei Hyland is suffering with fractures in his spine at the moment and this has left him very limited in movement and requiring him to use a walking stick. However, through the use of very detailed explanations and various pieces of ingenious equipment that he had designed and had made for us, he was able to make this the most informative and personalised course I have attended.
Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=friendshipcourses&action=display&thread=493#ixzz1SE75wwHF
The karate tuition was indeed fantastic – a high level of personal attention from Sensei and great instruction to boot.
However, it isn't just this which makes these courses so enjoyable – in the dojo, Sensei commands a great deal of deserved respect and without demanding it, his students treat him as a Very Senior instructor via the correct Dojo etiquette formats (Sensei discussed with us that knowing and using correct Dojo etiquette will enhance our Karate experience BUT we must remember that this is 2011 U.K. And not feudal Japan!
Out of the dojo, Sensei becomes Steve – holding no airs or graces despite his seniority, welcoming his students into his home which he and his family fill with fun and laughter.
Read more: ourshotokanstudies.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=friendshipcourses&action=display&thread=493#ixzz1SE7SS3c0
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Post by superjock on Jul 16, 2011 2:30:00 GMT
. Now I am not talking about a high level instructor who has been injured, Don't think he was talking about you there Steve. Should have made himself more clear though I would be disappointed if it came down to personal attacks on here, if I thought it was going that way my feet would be voting.
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Post by superjock on Jul 16, 2011 2:32:33 GMT
And yes keep working on that book both Fleur and me want signed copies. Pay you now if you want :-)
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Post by superjock on Jul 16, 2011 2:45:00 GMT
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 16, 2011 3:11:33 GMT
. Now I am not talking about a high level instructor who has been injured, Don't think he was talking about you there Steve. Should have made himself more clear though I would be disappointed if it came down to personal attacks on here, if I thought it was going that way my feet would be voting. Andrew - thanks for your support BUT I think tis I that shoulda been clearer Kensei and I are friends and have fun winding each other up with Rude posts - I did put in a lot of smileys! GULP! But yer correct Andrew, the Little git shoulda been clearer LOL! ;D ;D and for BOTH James's
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Post by superjock on Jul 16, 2011 10:30:34 GMT
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 16, 2011 11:57:43 GMT
And yes keep working on that book both Fleur and me want signed copies. Pay you now if you want :-) There are several people whom have been kind and helpful to me on this forum whom SHALL be getting signed copies for free - You and fleur are definitely on the list! Yer can send money anyway for my new walking stick fund LOL! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 16, 2011 13:40:27 GMT
Oh dear! my hear hear has left Steve wounded ! If I had known I was dealing with a man of such delicate sensibilities I would have been much more circumspect! Seriously Andrew, I have come to regard Steve Hyland as a friend and have nothing but respect for him, both as a hands on instructor and for his undoubted knowledge of all aspects of training both practical and theoretical. As for the book Steve, get off the forum and get working on it !
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Post by kensei on Jul 16, 2011 14:30:54 GMT
My my look what I did....Steve is now twisted and horribly offended..... ;D ;D ;D ;D Yah, like I have never been told I should be more specific before...Guys, I am married and over 40...means I am out of touch and wrong at just about every turn....so for the sake of Steves feelings I will be much more specific.
As instructors get older or are fall appart (yes steve...you..and pretty much all instructors I have trained with before) they become somewhat physically limited. However, their insight, knowledge and ability to help others does not. This was never a poke at those that keep Karate close to their heart and have the ability to pass on insight and those who still train to the level they can. I have nothing but respect for those like Nakayama< yamaguchi, Kase and yes EVEN STEVE HYLAND, who train to the limits of their physical ability, and often past....probably paying for it physically for days!
The Wankers I was talking about are guys who at one point did tournaments, trained with top level guys and simply stopped training or pushing themselves at all...but put themselves out as experts in the field and cant be bothered to even try to do much more than strap on a belt and gi...and some are not injured at all.....
For example.....we have a local "Cheif instructor" who would much rather bark orders and march around like an idiot regurgitating the things MY instructor taught him, accept rank for being an instructor and all he is...well he is a big blow hard that never could do much. He would point out he is nearing 60 years of age...I would point out that his ability is that of an 80 year old...and it has been for 30 years...my 70 year old instructor still moves like a 30 year old! The "cheif instructor" Could not actually come up with an original idea to save his life!
The second one I am talking about is an "author" who has never, to my knowledge printed a book that went to publish. instead he ran web boards, blogs and now has his own web site that he runs, but he admits that he had not strapped on a gi, put on a belt or trained in over a decade....but he still posts, carries on like he is an expert and says that he is a "well respected" member of the shotokan family...but everyone I speak with that knew him "Back in the day" says he was a huge pain in the ass, rocked the boat and acted like a child when he did not get his way. The guy is fantastic at debate and is condisending as hell (NO steve its not you), and comes across as a bully.
Now, as for the Principles of Kata...trying to get back on track. The study of Kata and its principles, the work that all the great minds of Karate are doing and have been doing is NOT for not. It is an important study and putting principles of Karate to paper is a fantastically important venture...but I will only study them and I will only give them ANY weight if they come from guys that strap the belt on, throw the gi on and get their arse on the floor to study them and put them to practice, not some well spoken Moron that wont even do Heian Shodan in his Garage to keep sharpe!
The theories are only important if one puts them to practice. If they simopy read about them in a book and never physically experience them...they are about as use full as a umbrella in a snow storm! (Canadian saying...you may get it you may not...we drink alot!) ;D
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 16, 2011 15:46:36 GMT
Hear haer ( oops! done it again )
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 16, 2011 15:56:26 GMT
BUT - isn't that a song Jim? LOL! ;D ;D ;D On another note - hope you OK mate after your tragic News.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 16, 2011 17:59:31 GMT
Thanks Steve. It has been not so much expected as overdue. Mick was a splendid character who was diagnosed at the beginning of this year with stomach and oesophageal cancer. He has fought bravely against odds he knew were against him and I have never heard him complain. He called a mutual friend of ours just Tuesday gone to ask if he was going for a drink, sadly he never made it collapsing a mere twenty minutes after the call. The funeral is Wednesday and knowing how popular Mick was I expect the crematorium to be packed . I still believe cancer will be beaten one day but until then it continues to take the best among us.
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 16, 2011 19:27:52 GMT
Condolences and best wishes to his family and friends Jim. He clearly had many good ones which speaks volumes about him. Chin up Mate as yer know we went through same last Christmas when my lovely Motherinlaw was taken from us. hard to accept when drug dealers live the highlife and violent murderers get short sentences! Anyway lets not interrupt the thread too much - what were we discussing OH YES you and James suggested people like me shouldn't be considered valid or write anything because we are unable, due to QUITE A FEW SERIOUS HEALTH PROBS, train flat out anymore! oh and then James said he didn't mean me! and then we all rambled a bit so.... You start us all back on the thread then Jim! LOL!
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Post by superjock on Jul 16, 2011 21:25:19 GMT
Condolences Jim.
Think I know the master you are talking about..........I fell out with him online about ten years ago.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 17, 2011 13:21:35 GMT
Anyway lets not interrupt the thread too much - what were we discussing OH YES you and James suggested people like me shouldn't be considered valid or write anything because we are unable, due to QUITE A FEW SERIOUS HEALTH PROBS, train flat out anymore! oh and then James said he didn't mean me! and then we all rambled a bit so.... You start us all back on the thread then Jim! LOL! Ok here goes! What James and myself were endorsing was balance I believe. That empirical research was the way forward and that theories and supposition were not. We all should be willing to listen to and respect someone who has new or challenging ideas if they are backed up by putting those ideas into practise. Job done and no one insulted ( I hope )
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