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Post by fujicolt on Jun 24, 2011 23:57:49 GMT
I am being contacted constantly by Karateka worldwide that DO NOT want to join in with the FEEDING FRENZY gossip that is occuring elsehwere but want to talk about their dismay, confusion, sense of let down and yes - ANGER over the situation.
I fear sounding like a hypocryt because of facing false allegations through my previous Social work BUT my case is very different and simply dysfunctional people that i worked with 'crying out' and actually asking for help. It is very different than HC's case and will fold out thus.
HC is clearly very ill and used his 'special position' to negative ends and in doing so immeasurably hurt his victims and their families BUT also hurt thousands of Karateka whom had trusted him as he waxed lyrical about the Budo way and how it Improved Character/behaviour etc.
In doing so he has brought a real doubt about the Budo way and it's claims and that affects and hurts us all.
So lets use this thread to comment and discuss that WHILST staying away from Gossip and Presumptions. Please post if you want to chat about how it has made you feel. I am confident that you will not be alone in those feelings and as a community I feel it is healthy to share the comon consensus and find ways to move on and jointly support the victims and ther families etc.
OSU! Steve H
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Post by chris313 on Jun 25, 2011 1:22:59 GMT
First off, I was as floored as everyone else when I first heard of this. I always liked Mr. Cooks contributions to the art, and even picked up a copy of his excellent Shotokan history book. So his arrest and admission of guilt has me at a loss for words. I did have a question about something, though. I don't know any of the details about what transpired between Mr. Cook and the young lady in question, and I'm not sure how sex crimes are classified under U.K. law, but strictly out of curiosity, is there any evidence that suggests this case was something equilvalent to statutory rape under U.S. law?
Regards,
Chris
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Post by Dave Gallagher on Jun 25, 2011 2:42:44 GMT
While I took some issues with some of Mr Cook's opinion and writing I must say that it seems he was never really a "Budo" man. I spoke to a very good friend about this issue and the impact on the karate world and he felt that there would be no real impact. I agree with this thought.
As time went by Mr Cook seemed to be moving farther away from shotokan anyway. I ask two things of people posting in this thread. One is to not think of Mr Cook as a true budo man and the other is conduct ourselves as Ladies and Gentleman and not flame this thread into a firefight that must closed by the moderators.
I know I am asking a lot for a guy making his first real post on the forum.
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Post by guyakuzuki on Jun 25, 2011 5:46:30 GMT
hi David,so far I think members have handled this very well.HC had moved from shotokan but I don't think that's important.Like Steve said:he waxed lyrical about budo spirit and all that but it was just a smokescreen.I think Michael Clarke(a very well known and outspoken MA)put it very nicely on his blog: "Karate doesn't develop your true character, it reveals it!" I chucked a dvd from HC in the bin.I'm sorry but I can't bear to watch it again.  my thoughts are with the victim ,her family/friends and also HC family,friends and dojo members... |
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Post by garage on Jun 25, 2011 8:02:35 GMT
www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/briefings/prevalencetable2_wdf49716.pdf570022 this is the number of reported cases of abuse in England 02-03 the above site give the figuares and defines it. It says most cases go unreported. On reported cases this means between 1% and 2% of the population. It not related to income group. So it is very likely you are going to encounter cases. Yet repeatedly it is stated on forums that it is rare. I hope the good that comes from this case is that people are more aware and some childhoods are not stolen. For these people are operate they are very nice and no one would possibly believe that they would do it. So much so, on cases I have had to pursue witnesses have lied because they won't believed that these nice people could do it. On the policy documents I have read it states that most cases investigated turn out to be true. I have noticed the church also seemed to deny this on numbers saying it is only 2% they seem more concerned with there employees than the victims. I hope the karate world is able to be more enlightened. If we consider these might be ture there would be less victims and as instructors ensure the opportunity for false accusations are reduced with good practice. Thanks for listening to my most humble opinion. Best wishes to all victims and familes caught up in this kind of turmoil.
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 26, 2011 18:04:42 GMT
Dave G - no matey - your a member so post away all interesting for us all to consider.
I opened this thread cos so many contacting me wanting to chat and wanting to know how others felt - Many in shock!
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 27, 2011 0:33:02 GMT
P.s. and at first i thought this was brilliant but then thought it through and sadly in this case it was a brave girl not Budo that revealed a practitioners true character! Budo Practice failed miserably on it's stated aims!
"Karate doesn't develop your true character, it reveals it!"
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 27, 2011 15:39:01 GMT
had someone contact me today to say =
'The OSS site is the only site handling this awful situation sensibly and endevouring to show respect and understanding to the victims, you must have very thoughtful Administrators and members who are true Karateka' thought you'd want to know that  |
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Post by Dave Gallagher on Jun 27, 2011 21:10:21 GMT
That's great to know. It's also great to be in the company of gentelmen.
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Post by kensei on Jun 28, 2011 1:32:22 GMT
Thier is a massive misconception in Karate and the world when it relates to Budo and training in Karate.
People think that if you enter into Karate it will make your charactor better...thus the first part of the Dojo kun. However, this is a reletivly new idea in Karate and Budo. I mean if you look at the Samurai, most felt that honor had to do with how you dealt with others on the battle feild..but rape and murder were not really against the code.
The Early Karate masters, with some exeption, were gentlement...but their were a few that were...well less than the Shuri castle knights that we think of them as. Several instructors partook of huge amounts of drinking and went to the red light district even when they were married....and some suggest that one instructor that was taught by Itosu was into small children and boys (NOT Funakoshi) and was known to be of ill temper all the time.
The point being that HC is not a island in a ocean of perfect people. He is not a one off that is never seen. We see many instructors not acting as if the ideals of Karate were ruling their lives. I know he is a big name because he is an author, but the outside world probably do not know who he is other than his crimes. and here across the pond...no one knows who he is.
The fact is, as someone wisely pointed out, Karate will not perfect your Charactor...it will shine a light on your charactor however.
I went thru shock and denial when I read about Harry, now I am just sad....yet another instructor acting like a ill minded moron!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 28, 2011 9:30:39 GMT
"I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him". I count myself as fortunate to have trained with Harry on more than one occasion and with a student of his on many an occasion. I agree that Karate should not be held up as a character-building enterprise or a barometer for good behaviour, it was the failure of the man not the art. Whatever guidelines you use as a template for life, be it religion, family values or your own internal benchmarks, it is how you apply them and how you adhere to them that is the mark of the man.
Idealising any code of conduct will only lead to greater shock and disappointment when people do not measure up.
We should view this as an appalling act of self-gratification by an adult against a vulnerable person and that in itself is sufficient cause for outrage.
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Post by pdmachin on Jun 28, 2011 20:56:31 GMT
I trained with Harry Cook for several years. I invited him to my club and my home. I trusted in him completely. This news has shattered my belief in every thing he said about Budo and character development.
I read that he now has been charged with 14 counts of sexual assault on several young children with more charges to come. How these children will recover is beyond me. To be assaulted by an adult is bad enough but to have it be done repeatedly by the karate teacher who is friends with your family must have been unbearable.
I hope he never sees the outside of prison again
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Post by kensei on Jun 28, 2011 22:06:53 GMT
as part of a history course I once took we were given four "writings" from different people on morals, obligations, good charactor development and how to be a good citizen. The authors were not given.
We read them and disussed them and we saw that the "writings" were all ways to be better people and we also thought them all very true and altruistic in thier approach.
Then we were given the authors.....Hitler, Ghangas Khan, Stalin and Charles Manson.....makes you think!
Not that I am throwing HC into a bag with them, but just because someone preaches something does not mean they follow it or that their views are not "more" than they are giving you a veiw on.
Harry may have been a great resource and a good teacher, his dark secrets were those that brought him down. All I can say is we should be better people than him and live life by a higher moral code!
its not what you say, its what you do. Steve is an argumentative old Git, but he is a great guy...case in point! ;D
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 29, 2011 3:30:58 GMT
I trained with Harry Cook for several years. I invited him to my club and my home. I trusted in him completely. This news has shattered my belief in every thing he said about Budo and character development. I read that he now has been charged with 14 counts of sexual assault on several young children with more charges to come. How these children will recover is beyond me. To be assaulted by an adult is bad enough but to have it be done repeatedly by the karate teacher who is friends with your family must have been unbearable. I hope he never sees the outside of prison again Paul - My Wife and I worked with abuse survivors for 20 years - sadly many do not recover and struggle terribly and can become very troubled and dangerous themselves in many ways BUT it doesn't have to be like that - over Last weekend (Wife and kids away so i was expecting quiet weekend).... I had a boy we raised from 10 yrs old (now 20) turn up at my house . Then my adopted Daughter and her friend (both had horrific background and now in their thirties - Came to us at 13) turned up. they had known each other since childhood point when they came to us. All stayed for weekend and we spent most of the time with them laughing out loud as I reminded them all what little horrors they were when they 1st came to us. It turned into a great weekend lots of reminiscing laughter, some very deep conversations and then laughter again, music and good food. They can have ups and downs BUT with the right help can go on to have very fruitful lives. It is one of the reasons I am trying to help the victim and families in this case as HC's case unfolds. The press will be awful and sadly 'gossip and prejudgments' can be shattering. This is why I am very proud that the family are thankful for the respect and good wishes the OSS Members have shown. I know from experience that 'victims' do better in recovery IF they know people are being understanding and supportive. |
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Post by plwilloughby on Jun 29, 2011 23:12:51 GMT
It is very sad and I am very disappointed.
Paul Willoughby
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Post by kensei on Jun 30, 2011 13:00:22 GMT
I had a friend of mine who was molested by his grandfather as a child. He never told us anything but we knew something was wrong. He had to live with him in his life till the old man died, the abuse stopped when he was old enough that the old man had no interest apparently.
Threw him a curve for the rest of his life. The friend of mine eventually grew up and opened a business several provinces away, he just kind of dropped off the face of the earth.
I ran into his sister a few years back and she explained that he cut him self off from the whole family, never got to meet his neices and nephews and basically turned into a kind of hurmit.
People who do these kinds of things to people are sick! And Steve for you and your wifes efforts to help, you should be honored by others....just dont expect me to be nicer to you! ;D
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Post by fujicolt on Jun 30, 2011 17:14:34 GMT
I would be worried if you did!
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Post by andyupton on Jul 18, 2011 17:02:43 GMT
Does anyone know the current situation of this case ?
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 18, 2011 21:21:58 GMT
I have been given information - that is not from the usual reliable sources SO in advance Please take this as it is = UNCONFERMED = but it does seem to make sense and if wrong the Police are failing anyway.
I am told that as HC taught at many Dojo as a guest Instructor the police are contacting Club Dojo that hosteed him to check if he had access to young girls. Also as he tended to travel to third world countries to teach abroad - the are very concerned and through international police forces are trying to check what he did and where he was whilst in countries infamous for trafficking children into the Sex Industry!
this is what i have been told - makes sense BUT i cannot confirm it as true BUT because of his guilty plea = if the Police aren't doing it they should be IMHO!
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Post by middleton on Jul 19, 2011 1:40:59 GMT
Good evening, I have been a member of a couple different Karate forum's in the past few years. Over this time I have made every attempt to avoid subjects like this, choosing more to "participate" on technical and philosophical subjects. This is strictly a personal choice and I do not pass judgment on those that do. My "avoidance" is probably why I am only finding out about this now for the first time. I am appalled, and saddened for the victim and family. I will adhere to my personal choice regarding the matter at hand, although I do have many strong opinions on the subject. I will however pass along my condolences to the victim and family. As a father of two young girls I can only imagine the pain they must be going thru. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/ |
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Post by plwilloughby on Jul 28, 2011 1:07:08 GMT
I have been given information - that is not from the usual reliable sources SO in advance Please take this as it is = UNCONFERMED = but it does seem to make sense and if wrong the Police are failing anyway. I am told that as HC taught at many Dojo as a guest Instructor the police are contacting Club Dojo that hosteed him to check if he had access to young girls. Also as he tended to travel to third world countries to teach abroad - the are very concerned and through international police forces are trying to check what he did and where he was whilst in countries infamous for trafficking children into the Sex Industry! this is what i have been told - makes sense BUT i cannot confirm it as true BUT because of his guilty plea = if the Police aren't doing it they should be IMHO! I am ignorant of the justice system in the UK but it seems strange to me that they would be investigating for crimes in which they would have no jurisdiction over. Would their plan be to hand him over to the authorities in said 3rd world countries? Paul |
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 28, 2011 2:43:28 GMT
Hey Paul - it would be, I assume, an interpol matter. There has been several cases in the UK press of men whom have travelled on Sex holidays to thailand just to abuse children whom have been tracked down and prosecuted via UK law and Interpol. So i assume similar investigative powers will be used here and in other countries BUT i am only assuming to know and have no reason to not believe those whom raised it with me.
BUT i repeat I am not certain about this info but raised it cos some of you who booked him MAY be contacted if this is the path of the investigation now!
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Post by andyupton on Aug 17, 2011 20:06:45 GMT
I'm not being...well, I don't know what the correct word is - lascivious or salacious, but how come this case hasn't been splashed all over the papers ?
Maybe it has been. I don't buy newspapers !
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 17, 2011 20:57:39 GMT
It was reported locally when he entered his plea in Court and was remanded. It will not hit the press now until the actual trial - unless there is a development - and then I imagine we will get it in National Newspapers - especially so when the case against him is presented. But I would be very wary of believing anything that is reported because it is usually a very limited and selective reporting ANDY.
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Post by kensei on Aug 18, 2011 12:18:13 GMT
I hate to say it, but its not big news. I mean a Karate teacher having relations illegally with a child is not something HUGE  even if he had violently attacked her and beaten her it may have made a days news. When you have riots in the streets, 5-10 rapes a day, murders and terrorist plats being fouled up...well its not big news. I speaks to the evil that men do, it is a horror show gone aray for those involved, its destroying the soul of those that are in Karate and tragic to say the least...but to the rest of the world its a blip on a screan soon forgotten in the termoil of life. To be frank, I had forgotten about Harry and the whole issue. I feel its best to let him be forgotten. For him that is probably the worst part of all this. All the teaching, research and work is going to fade and he will be a side note in the world of Karate for a few years then forgotten. We may hear about him again if he passes in jail then he will fall off the face of history for good. He may not even make it inot the very Karate history he so loved...and that is the best punishment I can think of. |
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 18, 2011 21:20:05 GMT
You don't have our press James - But I would hope (against hope) for the families involved that it wouldn't get big press and fade away to allow them to privately deal with its impact upon them.
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Post by antonio on Aug 27, 2011 17:36:01 GMT
I have corresponded with Mr. Cook in the past and would like to continue to do so.
...need the name of the detention ctr and his inmate number please.
thank you,
Bustillo,A
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Post by antonio on Aug 27, 2011 17:40:02 GMT
I have corresponded with Mr. Cook in the past and would like to continue to do so.
...need the name of the detention ctr and his inmate number please.
thank you,
Bustillo,A
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 27, 2011 17:49:18 GMT
Antonio - I will do my best to get the details you ask for - please be patient though. OSU!
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 28, 2011 22:26:48 GMT
This is the latest trustworthy information I have - the Court case rolls on - the Police still investigating and the Courts awaiting the final Charges.
HC is still in prison and not doing too well. He has admitted guilt on all counts and it is now for the judicial procedures to move forward as they will. The Families involved just want it 'Over' so lets keep discussion to a mimimum until it is EH? I can only ask!
False allegations are an horrific thing - trust me my 20 years in social care have shown me it to be so - but this seems 'cut and dried' so shall we all back off til the final verdict ? - i think the families involved would like that!
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even if he had violently attacked her and beaten her it may have made a days news. When you have riots in the streets, 5-10 rapes a day, murders and terrorist plats being fouled up...well its not big news.