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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 23, 2012 4:17:35 GMT
I have just returned home from a weekend of training with the head of the International Shotokan Karate Federation Shihan Teruyuki Okazaki 10th Dan. First of all let me just say that in British Columbia we have 23 member dojo`s & it was fantastic to train with such a group of representatives from most of these dojo`s. It is quite the feeling when you are in a black belt class with over 60 black belts ranging from shodan to rokkudan. Master Okazaki really focused on Seika Tandan, using lower abdominal muscles. He also had us use in forward & reverse fashion, both with hand techniques & kicking techniques a combination that he is famous for utilizing seven ( 7) stances. Actually including Jyu Kamae it would be eight. I`ll describe one way we use the stances. From Jyu Kamae, sliding to Zenkutsu, stepping back to 4 o`clock Fudo dachi, stepping forward to 10 o`clock Hangetsu dachi, pulling back & out to 8 o`clock kiba dachi, spinning around to forward 12 o`clock Kokutsu dachi, stepping back to Sanchin dachi & finally shifting back to Neko-Ashi dachi. We did this of course both sides & starting forward & stepping back, then sliding back, then going forward. The first couple of classes, I think most of us were mixed up a good part of the time when the speed started increasing, but by the last couple of classes we were getting it, & the last class felt good. Also we did some one step sparring both with one & two partners. Lots of fun with two attackers!!! The katas that we primarily worked on were, Bassai dai, Hangetsu & Nijushiho. He emphasized the need to work on both Shorei & Shorin. We can have one for individual because of body style, but we should also train the other. All in all, it was a very good experience. With 70+ countries in the ISKF Master Okazaki is quite busy & it has been quite a while since we have had a chance to have him visit us & it was something that most of us will remember for quite some time. A number of us also joined him for a few lunches & dinners out & had some very nice social time. Now I`m not about to tell you that Master Okazaki is capable of Super Human feats, but at 81 yrs of age to be able to have the flexibilty & ability to move the way that he can move, well it is very inspirational. As most of you know, I am a loyal ISKF member & to me it was a privilege to be able to train & socialize with this living legend of Shotokan Karate.
Osu
Paul B
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Post by andyupton on Oct 23, 2012 10:19:32 GMT
Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between Shorin Ryu Nijushiho and Shorin Ryu Nijushisho ? Which method does the JKA practice ?
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 24, 2012 0:31:20 GMT
Shorin kata movements are performed with the mind and bodyset of being flexible, soft and slow, with quick sharp movements.
Shorei kata movements are performed with the mind and bodyset of being strong, solid, with solid movements, strong-hard foundation.
Sorry Andy not quite sure what you mean. Nijushiho or Nijushisho? I`m thinking that one is a spelling error, as `sho` means small or lesser. Nijushiho is originally a Shorin kata, but of course evolved over the years to a more Japanese & Shotokan feel.
Osu
Paul B
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Post by nathanso on Oct 24, 2012 2:41:49 GMT
This distinction is frequently made by shootokan-ers, since it can be found in GF's KdK. However many historians cast doubt on the whole thing. One example can be found here.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Oct 24, 2012 8:54:29 GMT
Hi Paul I think what Andy means is what is the difference between Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu Nijushiho Best Regards Allan
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Post by andyupton on Oct 24, 2012 9:15:38 GMT
Hi Paul I think what Andy means is what is the difference between Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu Nijushiho Best Regards Allan Trust me not to check my spelling !! Of course, I meant to say was "What is the difference between Shorin Ryu Nijushiho and Shorei Ryu Nijushiho" It's my favourite Kata, so I should have known how to flipping well SPELL it ! ;D
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 25, 2012 4:13:36 GMT
Hi guys; I think that I may have been misunderstood, so I`ll try & clarify. The kata that we do fall into two distinct types of catagory. Shorin & Shorei. The kata are either one or the other. In a nutshell, Shorin being more athletic & Shorei being stronger. Here is a list of the 26 Shotokan kata & where they fit into these catagories;
Shorin: Heian 1-5, Bassai dai, Kanku dai, Enpi, Gankaku, Bassai sho, Kanku sho, Unsu, Nijushiho, Wankan, Chinte, Gojushiho dai & Gojushiho sho.
Shorei: Tekki 1-3, Jion, Jiin, Jutte, Hangetsu, Sochin & Meikyo.
The point that Master Okazaki was trying to make was something like this; If your personal kata is Jion, you should also study Enpi. Or if you train Hangetsu, then maybe you should also do Nijushiho. Myself lately I do Sochin & study Gojushiho dai.
I hope that this makes sense. Gichin Funakoshi studied under two instructors. Azato was shorin & Itosu was shorei . In Shotokan we are exposed to both diciplines.. We are lucky that Master Funakoshi had such a diverse background & exposure..
Osu
Paul B
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Post by kensei on Oct 25, 2012 14:22:05 GMT
Hey Paul, Don’t take this as anything other than further ADVANCED clarification on a subject. The way Okizaki Sensei presented the information was for simplicity sake, so that all students “got it” without going into a hour long history lesson and such, and this Dogma creates some false truths that I really dislike. I also learned it this way and after studying things I found out that I WAS DEAD WRONG. And when I went to Yaguchi sensei about it….20+ years ago, he said that they teach it this way because its easier for students to understand quickly…let me explain by working with your post…… Hi guys; I think that I may have been misunderstood, so I`ll try & clarify. The kata that we do fall into two distinct types of catagory. Shorin & Shorei. The kata are either one or the other. In a nutshell, Shorin being more athletic & Shorei being stronger. Here is a list of the 26 Shotokan kata & where they fit into these catagories; The “Categories” are used simply to clarify the “types” of Kata that are taught…they come from multiple different back grounds when you look at each Katas history and somewhere along the line someone felt it important to put them into a category and “cubby hole” them for teaching purposes. The truth is that a number of the 26 Kata were made by Itosu Sensei and some from other masters much older than him…and some adapted to Shotokan/ Karate from Chun Fa back grounds. They don’t fit perfectly into any two categories but the Instructors teaching do this for ease! It’s a generalization and only used for convenience! I always explain this to students when presenting the idea of two kinds of Kata saying “each Kata is unique after the basic Katas (H1-5), and even the Heian Series is a unique kind of training, but we use a two category system to generally separate and organize the Katas…much like we call some basic Kata, intermediate kata and advanced Kata”. I hope that this makes sense. Gichin Funakoshi studied under two instructors. Azato was shorin & Itosu was shorei . In Shotokan we are exposed to both diciplines.. We are lucky that Master Funakoshi had such a diverse background & exposure.. Osu Paul B Funakoshi Sensei trained under more than just Azato and Itosu…who were both students of Matsumura and others. They were not instructors of different styles…they knew the same information from Matsumura and taught similar Karate. Azato is said to have trained only with Matsumura and had a Kenjutsu back ground….Itosu however trained with Matsumura and Nagahama in Shuri te Karate. They both did Shuri Te (Castle or royal style Karate) and Itosu also learned Kenjutsu. About the only difference between the two was that Itosu had studied Naha te for a brief time and shared his new ideas with Azato! Both were shuri Te students/instructors. This distinction in teaching…is false unfortunately and has been taught to far too many students over time. Shorin Ryu is Shuri Te essentially. Shorei ryu comes from Naha te and was brought to the islands by Kanryo Higashionna and others after him. Higashionna original studied with Itosu but left him to THEN go and study in China and bring back the style of Chinese White Crane style that was changed to make Naha te. Some original Naha te systems were learned in Naha through the Kumemura area exchanges, but it is highly unlikely that Itosu learned Naha te before his pupil went and trained in China. However some evidence does suggest that he learned some Kata from that region and passed them on to both Azato and his other students. The false separation of Shorei and Shorin is similar to the false suggestion that Azato only taught one style of Karate and Itosu the other. But again, for ease of teaching it’s a quick suggestion and quick fix…but in the long run it just serves to confuse and proves false in the light of any research. Again, no disrespect for Okizaki Sensei or yourself but its important on a forum that has seniors and juniors to be as straight laced as possible. By the way, reminds me of the time that Yaguchi Sensei called Sensei Okizaki “teriyaki” and convinced all of us that’s how you said his name! Oh, and then he used a Chiropractic tool to “strike” him behind the ear! Great fun the masters camps used to be.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 26, 2012 1:26:53 GMT
Thank you Kensei. Perfect!! Believe it or not, I almost finished that last post by stating that this was the simplified version & maybe Kensei could fill in some blanks for us. I absolutely respect the research that you have done on the history of karate. For example one article that you had written on another site mentioning the 30 families from China. Maybe you could at some time do a post on this subject. I do know that both Azato & Itosu were students of Sokon Matsumura & of course each had their own other experiences. As you mentioned Azato & Kenjutsu for example. I think that Azato came from the Okinawan equivalent of samurai lineage. My understanding is that Azato was built more like Matsumura, tall & lean, while Itosu was built shorter & thicker. Azato more a Unsu type of guy & Itosu more a Sochin type. Hence easy enough to say one was more Shorin & the other Shorei. I do agree that what we have received has been the simplified version of the facts. I do appreciate you stepping in & giving us more detail. Thank You. As far as Master Yaguchi twisting Okazaki`s first name around a bit, well it`s not the first prank that he has pulled at Master Okazaki`s expense. One story goes that Okazaki doesn`t like Butterflies & of course Yaguchi knows this & so on one occasion Yaguchi managed to get a lot of Butterflies & put them in Okazaki`s quarters. When Master Okazaki opened the door & all these Butterflies were flying about he just yelled out `YAGUCHI`... Okazaki is quite focussed & can be quite serious & while Yaguchi can be like this, he also can be the class clown....
Osu Paul B
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Post by kensei on Oct 26, 2012 13:07:24 GMT
Hey Paul, I did not want to come off to “nit picky” but I just cant stand when “simplified” stuff goes out and people take it as historically accurate. But then again, some people say “its only Karate not a history of importance” which makes me pull my ever thinning amount of hair out! I guess as long as you train the rest is just kind of “story time” to keep it simple and fun to listen to….like a three little pigs story or something. Thank you Kensei. Perfect!! Believe it or not, I almost finished that last post by stating that this was the simplified version & maybe Kensei could fill in some blanks for us. I absolutely respect the research that you have done on the history of karate. For example one article that you had written on another site mentioning the 30 families from China. Maybe you could at some time do a post on this subject. I will get on it. I did a lot of research into the “exchange” town and would be happy to put it together and post it….give me a few days or so! I do know that both Azato & Itosu were students of Sokon Matsumura & of course each had their own other experiences. As you mentioned Azato & Kenjutsu for example. I think that Azato came from the Okinawan equivalent of samurai lineage. My understanding is that Azato was built more like Matsumura, tall & lean, while Itosu was built shorter & thicker. Azato more a Unsu type of guy & Itosu more a Sochin type. Hence easy enough to say one was more Shorin & the other Shorei. Most of what I have read and the very ODD photo or picture attributed to the men…most of which are not accurate in anyway by the by…..show that they were similar in build when they got older. But then again you can not judge height by the photos. And the stories of strength seem to be given to both men at one point or another! I would venture that Itosu was a tad taller and leaner growing up and Azato the shorter but stalkier of the two…but not by much. Now the use of the Kata styles you mention would be kind of accurate if not for the fact that the Sochin we know is not the original Sochin. But rather a Kata created by Funakohsi Yoshitaka….so not created while the masters were alive…..but we get your point and I am being “nit-picky” again aren’t I! Itosu’s family were “low ranking Samurai” on Okinawa, actually called Pechin. His family was actually Chikudun or Lower cast samurai, but he raised to the level of Shizoku or Scholar official under the Sho family and worked mostly with the Anji or cadet branch of the royal family till his instructor brought him to work for the Oji or “Prince” of the Sho family (basically the king but given the title of Oji…this I don’t know why). Azato however was Tunchi or Hereditary town or village chief and worked at the head authority to the Asato villiage which was half way between Suri and Naha. A lot of people suggest that Azato was actually the smaller of the two but Itosu the stronger and could outwrestle Azato. Azato became friends with Itosu through their instructor and did exchanges of information were Azato taught Itosu his knowledge of Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu, archery and both were great scholars. As far as Master Yaguchi twisting Okazaki`s first name around a bit, well it`s not the first prank that he has pulled at Master Okazaki`s expense. One story goes that Okazaki doesn`t like Butterflies & of course Yaguchi knows this & so on one occasion Yaguchi managed to get a lot of Butterflies & put them in Okazaki`s quarters. When Master Okazaki opened the door & all these Butterflies were flying about he just yelled out `YAGUCHI`... Okazaki is quite focussed & can be quite serious & while Yaguchi can be like this, he also can be the class clown.... Osu Paul B We hosted Okazaki only a few times, but each time his technical knowledge and ability to demonstrate was above reproach. He is truly a excellent technician, a tad stuffy at times but very excellent on the floor teaching. I did find him a bit intimidating and reserved and perhaps the only instructor whom I felt warranted distance when not training with him…..IE I did not talk to him too much off the floor! Yaguchi Sensei on the other hand would put his hand out to shake mine then pull me in for a hug and say “Oh, James you so funny” as he tried to crush the life out of me in a bear hug! He also went for lunch with us on many occasions and would “sneak” food off my plate when I was not looking and take my athletic tape all the time! It became a bit of a running joke in the Dojo that he would ask to borrow a strip of tape and then put the tape in his bag while he smiled at you and changed the subject. The saddest part of their leaving is that the JKA members in Canada and the states are now separated by organization red tape and political BS. I hope some day we can all just get together under one banner and just train for the love of Karate.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 26, 2012 22:25:17 GMT
Well described Kensei; We need guys like you that have done their research & can transfer their knowledge in a way that others can understand. You just go ahead & be `nit picky` as far as setting the record straight when I try & come off like I know what I`m taalking about & get the tale twisted. Human nature is such that we can`t even repeat what we have heard without changing something in the story & when that story has been handed down a few times,then it becomes fiction instead of fact. Always look forward to reading your description of karate history!!
Osu
Paul B
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