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Post by malk103 on Nov 21, 2012 16:50:57 GMT
Does anyone know of any training techniques to work on Kime, if you see Kime as the focus on point of impact then a technique could have Kime at different points. Taking a punch as an example, the point of impact could be at 95% or 50% of it's full travel. I assume that you adjust the Kime to match the target.
What if you are at close range and you can't see the target but can "feel" it's going to be there? Just tense and go for it?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Nov 21, 2012 17:57:36 GMT
I would say kime should be past the point of impact. The best way to get a feel for this is use of a makiwara but you can get the same " feel " from a decent pad or heavy bag. If you have done any tameshiwara you will get what I mean. You need to punch through the surface or past the point of impact then kime comes on.
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Post by kensei on Nov 21, 2012 19:22:12 GMT
I agree with Jim, the worst thing to do when working on Kime is to tense before or at the point of impact, this drops the actual impact that you impart to you target.
their are some schools that suggest you dont use Kime at all, and I dont agree at all, slap fights with no focus or not true Karate. The point being to find your target, execute a nice...straight or not...technique and when you land your attack sink it into the target then focus your whole body to complete the technique.
I once read a report and watched a YouTube vid from a GKR gent that advicated tension right at the point of impact and he demo'd it on a student...silly and no real power. Its like throwing a baseball but just going limp right when you let the ball go...it will never make it across the mound!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 21, 2012 19:50:38 GMT
Hello Mal
Kime is not the focus on point of impact. When we train in the "traditional" way our technique is arrested at a point some 5-10mm from the target. In reality the "target" is internal so the technique actually travels beyond the surface area of the body to cause internal damage. Some would say that the target is actually beyond internal to the point of the technique exiting similar to a bullet going through the body. This is why you should experience training on a makiwara and tameshiwara in addition to the accepted partner work that we are all so familiar with. Key point is when the target is internal (as opposed to external) your Maia must be adjusted to suit.
Mentioned this before in another posting but the recent Andre Bertel course in Blackpool omitted "kime" in the tension sense and allowed us to explore faster and more focused technique since we were not arresting our technique but allowing it to continue on it's flight so to speak. If you read the second part of the Blackpool IJKA blog it mentions someone who has trained 40 years (actually 46) experiencing this "no kime" which impacted heavily on his previous training...that person was me. In reality I have actually experienced this "no kime" during previous one hour training sessions but not to the extent of 2 x 4 hour training sessions over one weekend.
I am convinced that not having to "kime" in the traditional way actually helped me get through the sessions plus 2 x 90 mile round trips in spite of my hypertension, 2 x hernia's and 3 x disc prolapse. Next time you train give it a try it might work for you also! After all you have nothing to lose and possibly a lot to gain.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 21, 2012 20:00:55 GMT
Hello James
Actually composed my posting whilst yours was being posted.
I can assure you that having no "kime" does not amount to slap fighting. I took a number of shots from Andre and some of the IJKA attending karateka and can attest to the effectiveness of those techniques. Like I said experience it from someone who can actually do it!!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by elmar on Nov 21, 2012 20:13:50 GMT
Punch both a candle flame, and a sand bag. Kime I think becomes more obvious
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Post by kensei on Nov 22, 2012 1:11:00 GMT
Hello James Actually composed my posting whilst yours was being posted. I can assure you that having no "kime" does not amount to slap fighting. I took a number of shots from Andre and some of the IJKA attending karateka and can attest to the effectiveness of those techniques. Like I said experience it from someone who can actually do it!! Best Regards Allan Soooo, what you are saying is he slaps hard? I have watched his videos and I know you are one of his supporters, so I am not going to get to much into his stuff (besides I have little real experience with his stuff one on one) but I watched this kind of stuff when Kempo was big in my area, got into it at work with one of them, he slapped me six times before I could hit him once...my once was enough ;D I just think that if you dont focus you slap to much...
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Post by middleton on Nov 22, 2012 2:20:49 GMT
Good evening,
Interesting discussion with two distinct ideologies regarding Kime.
I think that it would be extremely helpful to define what Kime is by those that are supporting a particular method while negating another.
Kind regards, Scott Middleton traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca
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Post by nathanso on Nov 22, 2012 5:02:37 GMT
I think that it would be extremely helpful to define what Kime is by those that are supporting a particular method while negating another. I'm tempted to say that Scott has kimed this question. I like the explanation that kime comes from the Japanese word for decision, and that a technique with kime is done decisively. Part of the difficulty in this whole issue is easily seen in the way that Malk posed the original question, namely, where do you "focus" a technique when done against the air, instead of a target. While you have to tense antagonist muscles when punching air to stop quickly and to prevent hypertension if a full punch, your target does that for you when you actually hit something.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 22, 2012 10:48:54 GMT
Hello James The "shots" that I and others took were not slaps but punches and kicks in the traditional way but without the recognised "kime" as we all know it. The "slaps" that you see on the video are a training method to help release tension so you can react quicker and respond sharper. Kata Seiryu allows you to explore the different "feeling" of an established method of contact. For the record I am not one of Andre's supporters so with all due respect you "know" nothing, I am simply someone who has an open mind who is prepared to experience something different and make my own judgement on whether it has any place in my personal training. I am neither JKS nor IJKA. Like I said before elsewhere in these forums I will intergrate the concept into my own training. I have not sacrificed one method at the expense of another. I personally think that both applications have something to offer depending upon the circumstances of their individual usage. Hello Neil Rest assured, these techniques applied without the recognised "kime" ARE decisive simply because they are not arrested at the point of impact but allowed to enter the body. Sensei Kanazawa when breaking boards used a similar principle which allowed him to nominate a board to be broken from say 3 held, ie front, middle or back. Talking of hypertension, I take medication to help arrest mine Best Regards Allan
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Post by malk103 on Nov 22, 2012 10:49:44 GMT
Some great things to think about here, many thanks! I have read about punching towards a candle flame and need to try this method as well as pounding a bag.
I am of the thinking that its better to have few stronger impacts than several fast/weak ones, maybe the use of fients to keep them busy while you are in a better place to give a decisive response.
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Post by Rob S on Nov 22, 2012 11:40:03 GMT
Few in the non Japanese training world seem to recognise the full value of 'kime' and what and where it is. I agree that it should represent kimeru, or decision. Kime should be the application of ki ken tai ichi (spirit/mind, fist, body as one) in a technique. But it does not need to be a 'muscle focused' or 'binding up'. I too have seen Andre, but before he became the famous instructor he is today. I saw him in Mr. Yahara's dojo in Japan, and he was open and willing to listen and learn to that teacher's take on 'kime' and 'ikken hisatsu' (evidenced by the 'Yahara'isms' in his karate as well as the asai'isms' - but then Yahara is an Asai protege as well). Allan is right, take on board what works for you, and augment your karate journey. Let's not become locked into 'our way or the highway!". We need to embrace learning and training. Not shut down our minds just because a book written by the late great indicates that 'this is the way'. Sometimes we have been sold the globalisation - i.e. Shotokan as acceptable only if done the association way! Perhaps the marketing genius is still working! Shotokan is not the way, not one way, just a way! Rob Redmond wrote an article on kime a long time back that gives a mechanical/physical breakdown of the kime. -Make yourself like water and ice. Water during movement, ice at the moment of impact. Try to be as fluid as possible in your movements, for maximum relaxation of all of your muscles. When you are relaxed, you can move fast. Then, when you reach the point where impact would occur, tense all of your muscles at the same time, making your body into a single, linked solid object. Try to achieve as large of a difference between your relaxed state and your tensed state as possible, so that the execution of your techniques is very dynamic. When relaxing, relax quickly and to a very relaxed point. When tensing, tense instantly and totally with all of your effort.- www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/12/01/kime-the-myth-of-focus/He also writes: www.24fightingchickens.com/2012/02/24/fighting-spirit/To answer Mal's Q at the beginning of this thread - Makiwara training.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 19:52:49 GMT
I am no longer certain about the concept of kime. I have been hit by inexperienced and experienced karate and non karate opponents and whether they used kime or not it definatly hurt. Do boxers use kime? I do not know but will search around.
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Post by kensei on Nov 22, 2012 20:15:39 GMT
Sorry Allan, Really did not mean to make you seem like you were one who just drank the cool aide and now is a disciple of Andre. I have read good and bad things about the man and watched his very good athletic performances on youtube as well as his sparring and such....by no means a great grasp of who the man is or what kind of instructor he is one on one.
My take on Kime is a bit more basic than most I think. I am not going to throw ideology into a basic movement but I can tell you the best application of Kime is a lightning fast contraction to focus power and then a complete relaxation back to normal tension like a spark! (to use a corny phrase).
Complete relaxation during movements is a waste of my time as I have been in the slappy fights and seen the Kempo guys slap away at each other with out making any progress in a situation.
My take on Kime is that its just a small part of a technique that should be trained and then incorporated during training...and forgotten when its natural!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 23, 2012 10:37:20 GMT
Hi Rob
I remember reading this article (Kime- The Myth of Focus) but being someone who had the kime/focus ingrained in me I carried on regardless!! Having now experienced it (several times) the article makes common sense. Reading further down into the article is this notation:
"To put a little more oomph in my punch, I learned to -unweight- my front leg a little to increase the weight that leans on the fist, but that is a topic for another article."
This is very interesting since part of the training involved an "unweighting of the front leg" by NOT having the front foot and punching hand contact the floor/target simultaneously. The punch connected slight before the foot connected with the floor allowing the punch to further penetrate the target and the foot to have more impetus since it had not yet landed. What was in effect happening was that both footwork and hand technique were not being arrested at the initial point of contact but being allowed to continue on their journey/flight as previously explain in my last posting to Mal 21/11/12 at 7.50pm.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by garage on Nov 23, 2012 16:14:31 GMT
www.keepbusy.net/play.php?id=slap-knockoutThere are plenty examples of the slap knock out make the head move faster than the brain and the inertia of the brain causes the knockout. Breaking tiles you can choose which one you break by focusing on one tile if there is a gap between each one. Ice a focus at the surface will break it. Wood you need to exceed elastic limit as per hooke's law and less you can withdraw your hand quicker than the wood can spring all the energy back into your hand. Kerb stones just below the surface. Brick just make sure they are not the blue engineering bricks. The candle flame goes out more often as a result of the vacumn from the withdrawing hand. It is easier to kick it out as the foot moves more air. Boxers punch through their targets. It breaks bones in the hand without the gloves on. So bodies are a mixture of material densities and are most easily damaged if they are supported by a floor or wall like the above materials. If you are cutting with a sword you cut right through without focus the faster it travels the better the cut. So my guess is you need to sweep through the target and focus at other times, snap and thrust as there are 2 versions of most strikes.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 23, 2012 17:06:34 GMT
Hello Bert
My understanding of why we as karateka (non karateka can also do it) can break different materials is simply their inability to absorb the impact of a punch, strike, kick etc.
Not looked at Hooke's Law yet, is this saying similar?
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Nov 23, 2012 20:24:41 GMT
I think that this is a bit of a Forcing a idea around a question. The elasticity of a substance vs the force it takes to cause that object to go beyond its elastic limits is way to deep into a question of "does slapping or orthodox ideals of focusing work better"
I have worked with people that have had head injuries for a decade now in both a clincial and non clinicle setting and to be frank I have never seen a person sustain a brain injury or been knocked out by slappy hands to the chest and face. Is it possible, yes! But not as efficient as a direct force strike to the chin or other areas of the head.
Its like running 20 miles to win a 5 mile race!
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Post by garage on Nov 23, 2012 21:14:38 GMT
Different materials break different ways. Tiles using focus as taught break no problem.
Wood on the other hand if you focus, bounces back and hurts your hand. Getting advice from TKD they say aim the other side of the wood and exceed it's elastic limit and it breaks no focus just speed. The speed seems more important on springy materials than sheer force.
If you slap the head sideways with speed it is suddenly stopped by the being attached at the neck and hitting the shoulder very little effort results in them losing consciousness have tried this a number of times and repeatedly got the same result.
The slap to the chest despite the ice hockey puck to the chest story I agree is unlikely.
Punches to the chin despite dislocation or breaking the jaw it often the fall backwards striking the back of the head on the ground that causes most of the damage at least in the ones I have scrapped up.
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Post by kensei on Nov 23, 2012 22:42:52 GMT
Different materials break different ways. Tiles using focus as taught break no problem. Wood on the other hand if you focus, bounces back and hurts your hand. Getting advice from TKD they say aim the other side of the wood and exceed it's elastic limit and it breaks no focus just speed. The speed seems more important on springy materials than sheer force. If you slap the head sideways with speed it is suddenly stopped by the being attached at the neck and hitting the shoulder very little effort results in them losing consciousness have tried this a number of times and repeatedly got the same result. The slap to the chest despite the ice hockey puck to the chest story I agree is unlikely. Punches to the chin despite dislocation or breaking the jaw it often the fall backwards striking the back of the head on the ground that causes most of the damage at least in the ones I have scrapped up. I actually, and respectfully dont agree with this at all. The method and mechanics of a KO would be acheived as easily with a big Slap (read swinging your arm and making contact with a persons head) as easily as a focused punch to the tip of the chin/side of head/ side of jaw ext and so forth. No one technique would really be better as far as displacement of the cranium around the brain and the only advantage I see to the big slap is that you dont need to have any kind of form and its just brute strength and a huge swing..the chance of missing or being "seen coming" is bigger than a straight line punch that does the same mechanical thing with more efficency than a big slap. Also the other issue would be if the person sees the swing coming and avoids getting KO'd by not letting the head loose as with a slap KO requirement. The punch would do pretty much the same thing...and has. Yes you can use a slap to KO someone if you catch them off guard and shake their brain pan as it were...but the chances of getting and effective slap to work for you this way would be...in my mind (pardon the pun) less than a straight line or even arching punch. Also the slappy crappy body stuff is a farse! One straight punch to the Solar plexus will put most guys down if you connect properly...done it to many times to count and count on it working more times than not....a slap to the body...I would just get ticked off and drop you. I watched a video of Andrei B, whom again I may look like I am picking on but I respect the guys moxy, and the guys he slapped were willing participants and let him do it with out reacting. I would have picked the little guy up and dumped him on his head if he slapped me like that in a real fight....if that was his whole attack arsinal I would say he was unarmed in a real fight...and day dreaming if he thought he could win a fight with that stuff. As for TKD and breaking boards. the only TKD guys that I have seen break boards all baked them to the point that dropping them broke them! Not a great source to get info from unless you are looking to just imrpess your date!
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Post by nathanso on Nov 23, 2012 22:55:41 GMT
As for TKD and breaking boards. the only TKD guys that I have seen break boards all baked them to the point that dropping them broke them! Not a great source to get info from unless you are looking to just imrpess your date! Not necessarily true, James. This could be applicable to a self-defense situation, if you could pre-bake your assailant, or maybe if you are attacked in a sauna.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 23, 2012 23:04:18 GMT
Hooke's Law???
Like I said the different material's have an inability to absorb impact.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by elmar on Nov 23, 2012 23:34:41 GMT
The candle flame goes out more often as a result of the vacumn from the withdrawing hand. Hmm - that doesn't work as an explanation if 1) the hand stays put (no withdrawal), and 2) you set up 2 candles, one behind the other with about an inch between the flames, and put out only the farther flame, not the closer one.
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Post by garage on Nov 24, 2012 6:27:28 GMT
I wanted to break boards and went to TKD and Kyokoshin as they do it as part of their gradings. They told me how they did things. I went to the diy shop brought some wood. Dropped it stood on and then broke it following their advice. I found no need to treat them. One set of tkd cowboys is not enough to dismiss them all. They are aiming the other side of their target to get strike at maximum speed. As I am experimenting on my own there is no one to impress.
I absolutely agree that big swinging movements are easier to see but sometimes if you are close you either push them away to get the range or use something else. When people are angry they seem to have tunnel vision and fail to see what is going on around them. The people I am dealing with are really angry.
Elmar thank you for the 2 candle idea I am looking forward to trying it.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 24, 2012 11:34:57 GMT
I remember my first experience of board breaking, it was many years ago whilst I trained at Ormskirk SKC under Sensei John Errington. He just presented a number of us with boards, said you can do it and we did!!
It is all about having the confidence in your own ability.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by elmar on Nov 24, 2012 13:34:50 GMT
Elmar thank you for the 2 candle idea I am looking forward to trying it. I remember starting to try this - back when I was young, fast and strong Took a while to get one candle out, then for grins, I tried to do 2 candles. That took a bit longer. Then, just by chance, only the second one went out. Took me quite a bit aback, I tell you. Just stood there and stared for a bit, had to call the wife to convince me that I was not hallucinating. Then began some of the most frustrating time - took weeks before I was able to do it again. And the aches in my arms - I about threw out my shoulder a few times. Eventually I got to about 20% hit rate, with the others interspersed with doubles, singles and misses. The cream of the crop was one night when I had my senior over for beer late at night. We were a six-pack in, and the topic of candle punches came up. So your's truly, slightly inebriated, went out the garage, got the chunk of wood with the candles in it, brought it in and set it on the Telly (just the right height), grinned at Pete, and punched. Wonder of wonders, only the second one went out (Bacchus smiled on me that night). Not being that blasted, I of course did the inscrutable sensei bit, smiled in a smug and superior fashion, relit the candles, went and sat down, looking at Pete. And equally of course, Peter spent the next hour throwing his arm out until he couldn't even get one candle out. The next day he confessed to me that he could barely use his right arm. Some time you just gotta savor the grace of Lady Luck. Bottom line - it is do-able. My working hypothesis has to do with laminar flow and the breakup of air into turbulence. Basically if the punch is smooth and fast enough, and the stop sharp enough without pullback, you push a cushion of relatively calm air in front of your fist that breaks up into turbulent flow about 1 1/2 inches away after you stop the fist in full extension. Distance is critical - you have to range it well for your arm. The nearer flame will wave dangerously, but only the second flame will snuff (thus the 1 inch distance between them). Dang - now I'm going to have to make me a candle mount again (holes drilled into a chunk of 2x4 board), and see if I can work my way back up to that kind of speed and sharpness.
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Post by garage on Dec 3, 2012 12:08:25 GMT
Hi Elamar. As I couldn't work out all the variable in Bounoulli's chaotic wave equation, I lazily went for experimenttation.
My guess is the fist creates a wave then when you stop your fist cause turbulance. So small wind tunnel with a flat surface. as the wind goes round the flat surface you can see 2 eddys and a vortex. The faster the air flow the longer the eddys are away from the surface.
The wider the surface the more effect you get. Therefore the fist is best if it finishes horizontally.
The is no way of measuring wind speed so I could only guess.
Set the candles up at the measurement you surggested. I spend a while trying to get it. Then someone asked what I was doing and proceeded to do it. I think there is an optinum speed and it won't work if you are too fast as well as too slow.
Anyway thanks for the entertainment as it has kept me amused for a couple of weeks now.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Dec 3, 2012 15:07:27 GMT
Hello Bert
Me thinks that your "exercise" regarding wave equation was very amusing!
Try this...light a candle and whilst standing vertically simply blow it out by relaxing the body but allow the blow to eminate from the hara and not the lungs. Repeat by tilting the head to the left and then to the right and blow it out. Finally whilst standing on your head blow it out. As you should now know if your "blow" is consistant with the mimimum amount of blow required the candle will extinguish on all four counts.
The above analogy can now be applied from the vertical standing position with the fist to the candle with the exception of the last three counts. Consider sundome being 5-10mm from the candle and adjust your Maia to allow shoulder extension from your hara............did the candle go out? If it did not the wave was not consistant with the turbulance so all the variable's need to be rechecked.
I remember doing a maths degree course many many years ago and the tutor said maths is not about get the right answer it is about the method used to arrive at the right answer.
In summary like the board breaking, just do it and do not worry or concern yourself about theories, hypothesis etc since when confronted by an assailant you are not going to have the time to work out how he/she hit you!!!!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by elmar on Dec 3, 2012 21:13:08 GMT
...Then someone asked what I was doing and proceeded to do it. Doesn't that just frost you? But think of the "woo" factor for the crowds! What a demo
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Post by kensei on Dec 4, 2012 12:48:29 GMT
In summary like the board breaking, just do it and do not worry or concern yourself about theories, hypothesis etc since when confronted by an assailant you are not going to have the time to work out how he/she hit you!!!! Reminds me of a little story. Years ago we had this very smart buy training with us who would try and work out every move to a math/physics kind of level. He would spout off about the creation of such and such power generated by rotational force and applied through lines of power existing between the floor and target and go on and on and on...but he hit like a cream puff! One day I was hitting the Makiwara and he came up and started working on my form to make it more physically in line with the theories he had.....I looked at him and said " Show me" he couldnt because he spent his whole time in his head! Two thing I learned from that...one is living in your head wont make your karate any better...the other is I hit harder than the guys that can tell me about how to hit harder, but cant do it themselves...so I win!
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