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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 15:43:37 GMT
When you reach any grade, how fit should you be and how would you measure that level of fitness?
Should we formally measure how many push-ups etc a person can do? Should we just expect that if a person can fight for a few minutes as the right level of fitness or should we say that if you can train for an hour and a half then that is enough?
I have seen on the net the syllabus for both karate and kickboxing clubs who specify certain numbers of sit ups, press ups and even a timed distance run.
Personally, unless your training to be a professional boxer or martial artist I do not see the need but would like to know what others think.
Cheers
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Post by elmar on Jan 28, 2013 16:22:17 GMT
IMHO - since rank is somewhat relative to the individual being tested , e.g. a 60 year old with bad knees vs. an 18 year old made of whalebone and rubber, objective measures of physical strength/endurance is a bit silly. If they can do the required 2 - 3 kata, the required kihon, and the required kumite to a level that doesn't embarrass the rest of the dojo or the outside world, they are fit enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 19:26:45 GMT
Sounds reasonable but how bad do they have to be to cause embarrassment?
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Post by garage on Jan 28, 2013 20:00:33 GMT
Most Karate ka think they are fit, that causes embarrassment.
Belt under stomach or over?
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Post by malk103 on Jan 28, 2013 21:36:48 GMT
I suppose it depends on what your students want out of it, if they are training to enter competitions or survive being beaten up every Saturday night then it's up to them to become the fittest they can be. If they are just doing something to keep their minds/body active and they don't like football then who cares? They may be getting more mental Zen like good vibes from training in an Art than actual muscle size. It may also depend on what the Club/org is stating - if they are boasting that all of their Black belts could beat any other club in a competition and that anyone training with them will gain super human powers....
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 29, 2013 4:37:41 GMT
We all progress at our own rate. Also we don`t all have the same goals. Some like karate as a way to get out of the house do an activity that enhances both strength & flexibility, gets the heart pumping a little bit & gives some focus on self defence. Others want to be a champion & train that way. As long as we are progressing that truly is all that really matters. To ask students to do push ups, sit ups, run etc is not what we are about. Are we going tom penalize a student who is trying hard but has arthritis so bad that two push-ups cause him major pain, or his knees are so bad that running is a thing of the past. No of course not, karate training can help you live with some quality of movement by exercising those aching joints & muscles, let the young tear themselves apart. The key is balance. Find a decent level of fitness & a workable balance of flexibility & strength. Let karate help you enjoy life. To much of anything this exactly that `Too Much`.
Osu
Paul B
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Post by elmar on Jan 29, 2013 12:32:44 GMT
Sounds reasonable but how bad do they have to be to cause embarrassment? Subjective judgement - that is up to the person granting the rank, because it is their name on the certificate.
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Post by th0mas on Jan 29, 2013 12:39:07 GMT
...it seems as I get older my tolerance for embarrassment increases
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 17:20:20 GMT
thanks for the replies . what you have said is what we do in our club. Always difficult to know if we are doing the right thing. Best to compare with you guys. cheers
Alan
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Post by garage on Feb 1, 2013 19:44:32 GMT
Karate is not enough to keep you fit. On the other hand instructors who say I teach Karate the fitness is up to you are doing a disservice. The conditioning for karate is all round and no other training really covers this.
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Post by makoto on Feb 3, 2013 14:18:00 GMT
garageFirst you say, karate training is not enough to keep you fit. Then you end by saying the conditioning for karate is all around. Sorry, but that does not make much sense. Which is it, is karate demanding or is it not. Also, teaching only karate is not a disservice. It is using training time effectively. You want to exercise, join cross-fit, or kara-aerobics, or something. How much training time should be given to doing conditioning excercises? How does being able to do 100 push ups make your reverse punch better? How does, doing 300 sit ups, make your kick better? The only conditioning you need is what gets you through your class and have the ability to learn and improve technique. Being able to run 10k in under and hour is great. But, it is not going to help you in a 30sec confrontation. I am not knocking doing conditioning exercises during a class, just think it is arrogant to think one is a better karate guy than another because of the number of push-ups he can do. It is irrelevant. It is like expecting a 5th dan to be able to beat up 5 guys all at the one time, and if he cant he is not a real 5th dan. It is an immature expectation actually. Each to his own.
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Post by garage on Feb 3, 2013 15:41:33 GMT
makotoYes I agree not very clear. Karate is often sold as the answer to everything weight loss fitness etc. On it own it will not control these things. There are general exercises stretching and general conditioning that are specific to karate, no one is going to show you at a gym. So when an instructor does less than hour and shows no excercises specific to karate where are thay going to get these from a book or the internet? The other side of the coin is where most of the class is conditioning probably because the instructor knows very little about karate despite his 4 5th dans by the time he is 30. If you have a basic level of fitness Karate is not demanding and you can concentrate on techniques. Second last paragraph most people advocate running away so 10k in hours is a bit slow and a quicker take off would be better in a 30 second confrontation. (That is meant to be funny). Last paragraph got lost how you got there. I think I am not disagreeing with anything you say you just said it more clearly. I also think you are right that I am arrogant and immature which why I train on my own in the garage. Thank you for your reply it was informed and meaningful.
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Post by makoto on Feb 4, 2013 6:51:47 GMT
garage. I agree with everything you say. I misunderstood some of your previous comments. I took you to be one of these guys who like karate classes where people are puking on the floor and beating the crap out of each other to feel good about themselves. Extreme I know. Glad to see we are on the same page. I did not mean to call you arrogant or immature, just thought your statments were. But, I see I was wrong. Glad that I am. My apologies. By the way, isnt training in the garage great. I love it. I also go to the dojo, but it is the garage where I learn.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 4, 2013 9:22:33 GMT
Whilst I think some conditioning is necessary ( and fun ! ) the best training for karate is to do karate. When we indulge in circuit training it is pertinent to karate and would include pad work etc. I remember being on a course many years ago and afterwards in the changing rooms my friend struck up a conversation with two very athletic-looking chaps from another club who were built like race-horses. He remarked that the training had been strenuous, especially after the previous nights indulgence. The two guys remarked " Oh we dont drink" , my friend replied " Cmon lads, its one thing being dedicated but theres no need to be miserable about it !".
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Post by kyshotokankaratedo on Feb 5, 2013 19:23:43 GMT
I believe karate is the perfect all around sport. Karate's best attribute is its diversity. One night its a puke fest with high intensity interval workout, then the next day its slow motion kata. I think we are discussing the wrong aspect here. Karate or any sport done without intensity for one hour a week will not make you fit. As for belt rank and fitness I'm willing to let everyone start where they are. I do like my upper belts to be fit. We have intense black belt tests, part of it is pushing past what you think you can do. If a student shows an iron will and pushes through then I commend them.
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Post by malk103 on Feb 5, 2013 20:36:29 GMT
That's a good point about going beyond, if you are in the gym or out running then its very easy to give up when tired. A good Dojo with a good instructor will push you, or you will push yourself.
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Post by kensei on Feb 5, 2013 20:39:51 GMT
I would say that Karate and fitness go hand and hand but are not dependent on each other. I would never say to a student during testing "Kay, gimme 10 on the deck" like my military days.
conditioning is for class and to give your students some idea of what they should do at home if they want to be fit, and it should be "no pressure" kind of stuff.
Karate is for learning the kicky-punchy stuff man, and its fun. yes you will be "fitter" for doing Karate, but its not an aerobics class or cross fit work out.
Also, what is wrong with the classes that make you puke? I love giving them and lord knows I love getting them! ;D
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Post by elmar on Feb 5, 2013 23:29:09 GMT
...We have intense black belt tests, part of it is pushing past what you think you can do. Hmmm - I normally don't have this at the formal 'test" - I feel that it is more important to watch the mental state than to simply do a exhaustion test. A shorter test means that more pressure exists on each and every movement - if it is not perfect, then there is no real opportunity to "recover".
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Post by garage on Feb 7, 2013 7:01:20 GMT
One of the people I train with is training for a sport like it is his job.
He trains to win with a measurable outcome being in the team. We train hard often tell he is sick. Special diet avoiding food that would cause him to fail drug tests. skills and conditioning and then more.
The skill set is practiced tell it becomes reflex. The coach says it is no longer good enough to have good skills, you have to be an athlete, be able to deliver because you are better conditioned than your opponent. That is what the training for because that is what makes the difference between winning and losing.
Why is karate any different?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 7, 2013 11:15:24 GMT
It needs to be put into context. If you are training for sport then a certain level of fitness is required. If you are training for, for instance MMA and you are required to do lets say 6 rounds of intense randori, then stamina is a pre-requisite. However if your focus and your training are geared towards self-defence, your focus will be on ending the fight as quickly as possible, You need the stamina of a sprinter for that. short sharp bursts. Self-defence should work for you no matter your level of fitness, state of health ( within reason) environment etc. Otherwise karate would only be for young athletes and i am sure no-one is suggesting that!?
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Post by kensei on Feb 7, 2013 12:54:26 GMT
Karate has many functions and many applications. the thing is even athletes can not work at a 110% pace for ever. They have to cycle their training and work at a medium and even lower level pace or they will burn out and injuries will shut them down.
Karate is for the older person trying to stay mobile and enjoy movement, the younger child learning about their body and dicipline and also the athletes, the lawyers the bus drivers the.....you get the point.
Everyone can benefit and it will influence your fitness level...but for some people the interest to train like an olympian is just not their.
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Post by malk103 on Feb 7, 2013 15:04:25 GMT
Lance Armstrong could train at 130% but that's a different story.....
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Post by kensei on Feb 7, 2013 18:26:26 GMT
Lance Armstrong could train at 130% but that's a different story..... LMAO, it takes a lot of "balls" to train that.....er wait....never mind.... What...To soon?
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Post by nathanso on Feb 8, 2013 0:23:21 GMT
Lance Armstrong had an amazing cardiovascular range. At his peak, he had a resting HR of 32-34 and max HR of 201. (I looked it up a while ago to show my med students.) Yes, he had pharmacological assistance, but he sure trained hard as well.
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Post by garage on Feb 8, 2013 7:17:49 GMT
My resting hr is 45 I just took it as I read this, peak is 220. I have done this without drugs or making my team mates take drugs with unknown side effects.
I am over 50, why would I want to compete in a race with a cheat? When I get beaten I like to know we are playing by the same rules.
He has made a lot of money so why doesn't he keep it and shut up instead of wanting to carry on as he hadn't done anything and complete in the odd race so he can feel good about himself.
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Post by kensei on Feb 8, 2013 13:18:52 GMT
First off Bert, I agree with you 100%...however, their are a few things that are easily washed over here that we need to go back to. This is not a simple black and white situation at all...their are many facets to the whole thing.
Is Lance a Cheat...Yes, he cheated ergo he is a cheat. Did drugs help him win, in some ways yes and some no. He was assisted by healing faster, having some what augmented abilities to generate the physical power and stamina to do this...and I will get back to that....but its not like they took some 40 year old off the street and said "hey you are 40 pounds over weight and we are going to stick this needle in your butt and make you a GOD"....no he started great and got better from their. The drugs augmented his already fantastic skills.
Now, having said that...lots of people come forward and are caught cheating in the tour De Druggies...er France and it has been documented since 1903 when it started. Early tour members would drink booze and snif ether to dull pain during the contest...cuz buddy that thing is a killer. Now with this culture of drugs the term "no dope...no hope" has come out when talking about this race, and one German paper states..and I quote "the tour is only possible because-not despite the fact- there is doping".
So, Lance went into a challenge known for doping, in fact based on the fact that you will need to dope to win or even compete and dispite tehm saying that they are banning the drugs....their have been, since 1998, 93 members of the tour who have finished in the top ten and been stripped of titles, tested possitive or sanctioned for irrecular tests, admitted to doping with out possitive tests or been accused of doping with out a test but some proof existed. In fact 8 other people other than Armstrong have been stripped of their titles because of possitive testing and many people say it would be more if the testing had been more sophisticated and cought more people.
So, before we jump all over poor Lance...even if I liked making a bit light of him.....lets look at the sport he excelled at, what others are doign in that sport that he was also caught doing and before we cast a stone at him...lets focus a few on the whole corrupt race!
Just sayin'
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Post by kensei on Feb 8, 2013 13:19:59 GMT
Now to bring it back around. I know of one instance in the '70's were a Karate student doped to try and kill some pain and ended up hurting their opponent.
Does anyone think that proffesional run team members still dope today or is that a thing of the past?
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Post by garage on Feb 8, 2013 15:58:13 GMT
More worrying is not the professional teams, is what you can buy at the local gyms and what it can do to you.
The dose for a horse is slight bigger than for a human.
In gyms everyone trains hard. The ones taking drugs used to pull out a few more reps, where as I would have to wait to recover before I could continue. They soon pulled ahead there is no way I could keep up.
Yes I agree they worked hard but the drugs make a big difference and knock years off the training times.
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