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Post by Rob S on Feb 12, 2013 7:51:25 GMT
Keiko Fukuda sensei passed away on 9 Feb, at almost 100 years old. Despite being the only surviving student of Jigoro Kano sensei, and practising with Kyuzo Mifune sensei, the Kodokan were not too fast in awarding her a 9th Dan. She received a 10th Dan from the USA Judo Fed for her lifelong service. Are the martial arts sexist? Why was she not promoted? Why are there so few karate women out there with senior (above 7 Dan) grades? Is it because of their maternal life? www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHdPh3CEfGMwww.timeout.jp/en/tokyo/feature/4709/Keiko-Fukuda-Judo-10th-dan-at-98-years-old
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 12, 2013 9:56:03 GMT
Hello Rob
Truely a remarkable Lady who was "married" to her chosen Art of Judo, she is such an inspiration to all who have followed and possibly the catalysis in making the male dominated arena change to the knowledge and experience of female participants.
We all like to think that our respective Art whether it be Karate, Aikido, Judo etc is an evolving one but one wonders if indeed Judo in this particular case had actually stagnated simply because the higher male echelon's failed to recognise that knowledge and experience are not gender based. What IF Jigoro Kano or Gichin Funakoshi or Morihei Ueshiba were female?
As Jigoro Kano was the Father of Judo, Keiko Fukuda was indeed Judo's Mother.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Rob S on Feb 12, 2013 13:44:18 GMT
Hi Allan, The Q would be does Kodokan still have a women's division? It appears so as there are women's classes! Karate appears equally sexist. Your comment about what if the the founders were women would be interesting to debate.
Go back to history. Many believe that Uesugi Kenshin was perhaps a woman, masquerading as male, to sit in the position as a samurai. Gozen Tomoe is perhaps the most famous woman samurai - as in known to be female.
Does the martial art fraternity still need male dominated leaders? Credit to Pauline Bindra, she took on the UK, and to all accounts was very very successful!
As have Py Bateman/Pauline SHort and others back in the US.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 13, 2013 13:18:21 GMT
Hi Rob
Personally I think the reasons why the main stream long established organisations have patriarchs as opposed to matriarchs is simply because the male of the species got there 99.9% first so to speak.
As you will know Vernon Bell organised the earliest karate organisation in Britain which was the British Karate Federation on 1st April 1957 but as a professional judo instructor he had been training in karate since 1956. Fortunately Vernon Bell had great insight (some might argue just to make numbers up!) since he allowed both male and female to train, one who was Pauline Laville/Fuller/Bindra.
Clive Layton and female karateka Dinushni Muthucumarana wrote "You don't have to dress to kill" which followed early female Shotokan karateka of the British Isles during 1957 to 1966. Mentioned in the book is Dot Pemberton who married Charles Naylor (later KUGB) who was a founder member of the Liverpool BKF dojo in 1961 so she also trained in Karate in those early years. Their daughter Jane (and husband Richard) keeps the family flag flying.
To not recognise the contribution of female Budoka is to be blind to a wealth of technique.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2013 16:28:23 GMT
Are the martial arts sexist? Why was she not promoted? Why are there so few karate women out there with senior (above 7 Dan) grades? Is it because of their maternal life? There area couple of issue here. Firstly, what makes you think the fact she wasn't promoted has anything to do with gender? Perhaps there where other reasons and you have just assumed it was gender because you are not aware of them. The other issue is surely all organisations are sexist? How many allow men and women to compete against each other? Someone could not turn round and say they are not going to fight men as they have an unfair advantage, and then turn round and say I must be an equal grade as the men, you cannot have it both ways. (not that I am suggesting she did that)
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 14, 2013 19:52:50 GMT
Hi rne02
Apologies but do not know your name!!
Firstly, was she not told it was about gender?
Secondly, surely ALL organisations are sexist is a very bold statement! Grade, whether male or female is NOT an indication of the ability to fight.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Feb 15, 2013 13:23:13 GMT
Are all orgs sexist? Well, I think you can not paint all orgs with the same brush for one thing. Its kind of like saying are all Dojos racist? Some may vary well be, but not all. Are all martial arts sexist....I dont think so, I think some martial artists may be sexist but not all.
Secondly, why did she have to wait to get such a high rank, Not sure. I knew of the lady through my Judo years and thought it was cool, but she was very small and participated when their were not many ladies doing judo...which means she was tossing around bigger guys and making them look bad...which to me would make it obvious that you need to make this "little lady of Judo" a higher rank simply because she PROVES the ideals of Judo are true...that a smaller person with better techniques can out do bigger MEN.
In my local organization the top three ranking instructors go like this....My instructor (a 72 year old man that moves like a cat to this day and makes some 20 year olds scared), my instructors DAUGHTER...who is very skilled and second highest ranked in our area,...and then me. We dont base rank on sex or race here..but I am sure it may affect some old school sexists and racists a bit.
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Post by Rob S on Feb 15, 2013 17:13:33 GMT
... what makes you think the fact she wasn't promoted has anything to do with gender? Perhaps there where other reasons and you have just assumed it was gender because you are not aware of them. Well it was clearly stated to her 'proposer' that as she was a woman no 9 dan could be issued (and it took many years for that to eventually be granted!) It was clearly stated to Fukuda Sensei herself, during her 30year wait that no woman could go above 5 dan! There were clearly gender issues at stake. My question concerning karate women is simpler. We cannot name so many who have been granted 7 dan or higher by Japanese groups. And we cannot name that many who have been been granted such grades by Western groups. Why not? Women have been involved in karate for many decades now. We have the Dot Naylor, Pauline Bindra, Tomiko Bellamy (Mitsuoka) and others. BUt how may can you name off the tip of your tongue? Take a challenge. Name every 7 Dan or higher male you can think of instantly. Now do the same with the ladies. Is there a difference in your list?
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Post by kensei on Feb 15, 2013 18:30:51 GMT
ONce you are done with that...name every 8th dan or higher westerner that you can think of off the top of your head!
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Post by Rob S on Feb 15, 2013 20:15:12 GMT
Ray Dalke Malcolm Dorfman Norman Robinson Pemba Tamang Fred Serrichio John Mullins Charlie Gidley Jan Knobel Craig Hargis Pat McCarthy Nigel Jackson Malcolm Phipps Nick Adamou Andy Sherry Gerry Breeze George Carruthers
That took less than two minutes!
For sure there are more:
Pauline Bindra as stated above etc.
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Post by nathanso on Feb 16, 2013 1:25:25 GMT
I'm pretty sure that Cathy Cline got her seventh dan before the ISKF split from the JKA. She's now an ISKF 8th dan.
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Post by kensei on Feb 17, 2013 15:58:24 GMT
How many got the ranks from a Japanese org......
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Post by Rob S on Feb 17, 2013 20:43:53 GMT
Well I can say that Norman Robinson got his from JKA (Asai) in Switzerland 1998 (Asi, Kagawa, Abe, Yahara, Naito et al.). And I can say Malcolm Dorfman got his from KWF (Yahara, Isaka, Hozumi, Kakihana, Naito et al.) in 2000 - as I was present at both gradings.
Can't comment on the others as I do not know.
But grades are relative only to the organisation you are training in. It would be wrong to suggest that some of these names are below par because it was not a Japanese organisation. It would be equally wrong to suggest that western associations promoted more easily.
There are a large amount of women participating in karate. Yet the amount of kodansha is not relative to the ratio of male to female karateka (or Aikidoka, or Judoka). IMO!
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Post by kensei on Feb 18, 2013 2:55:24 GMT
Hey Rob, I was not suggesting that the orgs were giving lighter ranks or anything like that. I was suggesting that the Uber Traditional orgs are more stingy with rank...in general.
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Post by nathanso on Feb 18, 2013 5:45:37 GMT
It is worth mentioning that Ohshima's SKA hs not awarded ranks above godan, with his rationale being that was the last rank that GF awarded before he died. Ohshima has graded many of his students to godan, i.e., to the rank that he holds.
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Post by Rob S on Feb 18, 2013 10:29:19 GMT
James you may be right, in the case of certain associations in particular.
Stan Shmidt has not been promoted, yet both his students who left the association have been - to a point above him? Why?
Easy! Keep the money and power in a central unit. Don't let the 'provinces' keep the 'taxes' make sure it all goes to the 'shogunate'. (So to speak).
It would seem that some 'mainline' associations are not 'all for one and one for all!'
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Post by nathanso on Feb 18, 2013 17:03:11 GMT
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