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Post by tomobrien on Jul 24, 2013 1:28:15 GMT
What say you about it? What does it mean to you?
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Post by kensei on Jul 24, 2013 11:48:30 GMT
Zanshin- a state of relaxed awairness!
I remember back in when I was a teen and I kind of experienced this for the first time, it was weird and great all at the same time...then I got hit in the face when it broke. You kind of have this total "no thinking" your inner voice is silent and you just have this relaxed focus that takes over. Your sparring partner could shift his little toe and you would see it as a huge movement and react to it appropriately.
Because my speed was better I could hold fast and wait till the last second to catch the right second to move and my Kumite was spot on...then you think "damn this is great/weird" and its gone and you are back to normal and getting pelted with feet and fists.
Zanshin to me is just a name for that place you go when you need to be primal and reactive to situations.
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Post by elmar on Jul 25, 2013 11:42:32 GMT
Zanshin to me is just a name for that place you go when you need to be primal and reactive to situations. I think you are referring to a related concept: munen-mushin (no thoughts, no mind). Zan shin is "remaining mind" and refers to that state following a successful technique. Just as at the end of a kata performance, it's no "over" until after the final "yame" posture in shizentai - beginners often simply collapse their imind after the last "technique" inkata - zanshin is the continuing mental tension pressing out into the world.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jul 25, 2013 12:30:48 GMT
I was always taught that Zanshin was always "peripheral" awareness. Prior to, during and after ANY situation.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 12:45:37 GMT
Zan shin is "remaining mind" and refers to that state following a successful technique. Just as at the end of a kata performance, it's no "over" until after the final "yame" Remaining mind is just the literal translation of the words, translating things literally from one language to another gives you the right words, but not necessarily the context. Zanshin is a awareness (code yellow in Coopers colour codes). Being aware of other road users so you don't pull out into another lane and hit a car. Being aware of what is going on around you in the street so someone doesn't come up behind you unnoticed and attack you. In the dojo it means, for me at least, after a technique keeping up your guard up, looking around (in violent confrontations you develop tunnel vision, so need to get into the habit of checking for his mates rushing in) and also maintaining eye contact with your partner as you both walk back to your starting position to perform the next technique (as opposed to turning your back and sauntering back to your stating position like you're in a world of your own, adjusting your Gi and thinking about what your going to have for tea when you get home).
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Post by kensei on Jul 25, 2013 12:48:56 GMT
Zanshin to me is just a name for that place you go when you need to be primal and reactive to situations. I think you are referring to a related concept: munen-mushin (no thoughts, no mind). Zan shin is "remaining mind" and refers to that state following a successful technique. Just as at the end of a kata performance, it's no "over" until after the final "yame" posture in shizentai - beginners often simply collapse their imind after the last "technique" inkata - zanshin is the continuing mental tension pressing out into the world. "remaining mind" to me is that feeling of relaxed awairness that you need to be reactive to a situation, I think perhaps its more my wording that you dont agree with, but to me the moment of relaxed readyness were not thought enters your mind and you are focused on the moment, the area around you and ready to move is primal! When we were cave men...some of us not to far off from that spot might I point out (or more point at myself)...we had to have Zanshin in the times when the situations were dangerous, which were more times than not. We had that complete primal readyness that we adopt for our own safety. Ready to pounch or retreat and counter, ready to bolt towards or away from a stimuli and open to the possibility of needing to do one or both! Zanshin is simply total awairness and open mindedness that frees you from thinking and does so with out force but just is how you are, you dont think "Man I need to clear my mind"...well because you are not doing it...you just relax and become more awair. To me that is primal and something that wenow have to train to meet. and thus ends my smidge of Zen moments I can muster before going out to club a deer!...or in my case get a breakfast made or me....oh, but their will be meat! ;D
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Post by tomobrien on Jul 28, 2013 3:06:38 GMT
The old saying - "Protect yourself at all times." comes to mind here. A lot of good stuff. I think most of it is applicable. Thanks
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Post by garage on Jul 28, 2013 5:33:09 GMT
The final yamae is when you die.
To begin with I was frightened that I would not be quick enough so was aware at all times. I have trained to be automatic, now I am scared that I will not be aware and will react to incoming at the last moment without thinking and bad things happen as they have on a few occasions.
It is my responsibility not to hurt people by accident. So be aware untill the final yame, there can only be one.
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Post by malk103 on Jul 29, 2013 22:38:47 GMT
Our club is named Mushin, I think it is kind of awareness but different to Zanshin - tricky to get into words... I think Zanshin is more about concentrating and awareness, not figiting or being distracted. When military people are told to stand at ease they still need to keep a form of Zanshin, whilst stood to attention or stood-to, they are in complete Zanshin.
Now i've totally destroyed Zanshin, here's my take on Mushin, reaction without thinking. We try our best to train this by having 3 or 4 set attack/defence moves that we drill, then we mix them up until they are done at random, if you try to think about it you will always do the wrong defence or be too late, if you crack it then you can react/defend accordingly. Some partners may be slow or give you clues to which attack they are about to do, they either look to their attack point or make a slight move that gives it away. Good training partners just launch with speed - there were plenty of these at the friendship course this weekend - good Karateka that is.
There was a good example of Mushin in the film the last Samurai, naff film but good to see shorty get hit with a stick. ;D
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Post by kensei on Jul 30, 2013 11:27:32 GMT
The final yamae is when you die. this is why I never want to stop sparring
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Post by kensei on Jul 30, 2013 11:35:10 GMT
I love reading about martial concepts, here are a few that kind of grab me all the time.
Zanshin: "remaining mind" a state of total awairness!
Mushin: " No mind", a state of relaxation with out thought, a flow with your environment and the current situation leaving someone free to react.
Shoshin: "Beginners mind" to me this means the mind that has a grasp on the fact that their are endless possibilities in life and the moment. Dont sit on Dogma and trained reactions for long, create in the moment and explore with an open mind and express in the moment. Great for kumite when you dont just sit and do the same thing over and over again.
Fudoshin: " Immovable mind", kind of like when you have a goal in mind and no matter what distractions come your way you push on and you get to your goal! In Kata its keeping focused even if a crowd builds and is moving about making for a distracting moment, you must keep focused on your kata. Or when a opponent fakes a sweep to land a lunge punch, focus on the events not the fake and you should make it to the block on time.
Kensho: Seeing the natural essence", now if that aint confusing. To me it means that initial moment that you get it...the "Ah ha" moment. IF you can find them and line them up in sequence they tell the tale of you developing your own style of movement and skills.
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Post by elmar on Jul 30, 2013 13:11:52 GMT
Mushin implies no "verbal" mind, not brainlessness - simply no words and no formed thoughts. To my ears it sounds like a left to right brain shift in locus of control (oversimplifying, but you get the idea).
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jul 30, 2013 14:39:52 GMT
Like I said... I was always taught that Zanshin was always "peripheral" awareness. Prior to, during and after ANY situation. Best Regards Allan
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Post by nathanso on Jul 30, 2013 18:26:03 GMT
The final yamae is when you die. As is the final hajime.
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Post by tomobrien on Jul 31, 2013 2:10:25 GMT
Fudoshin is my favorite! Total commitment & belief in what you are doing! Nothing is gonna stop me!
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Post by kensei on Jul 31, 2013 12:10:32 GMT
Fudoshin is my favorite! Total commitment & belief in what you are doing! Nothing is gonna stop me! Yah, me too!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2013 4:47:01 GMT
Hi Kensei, I like the terms shoshin and fudoshin (beginners mind and immovable mind). I had not come across those Japanese words before. Linked together they form an interesting spectrum.
Start off with an open and questioning mind, consider the possibilities, then when it is needed, be focused on what you need to do.
nice one.
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