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Post by andyupton on Feb 23, 2014 13:57:17 GMT
Why is the name of this Kata sometimes spelt Empi (with an 'M') and sometimes spelt Enpi (with an 'N') ??
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 23, 2014 20:10:23 GMT
It is apparently just a mistake. It should be enpi, empi is the alternative term for hiji-ate or elbow strike and translates as something like monkey arm.
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 24, 2014 9:30:39 GMT
That's not my understanding of it. Technically both are correct as it is due to the transliteration of kanji to romanised lettering. Due to the massive differences in the 2 alphabets (English and Japanese) there will always be imperfections in the translation. More examples would be zuki and tsuki, geri and keri.
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Post by garage on Feb 24, 2014 11:07:42 GMT
That's not my understanding of it either. I thought it was Enpi which means "flight of the swallow" becuase of the up and down flowing moements of the kata.
Funkoshi changed the name to make it more Japanese sounding form the original okinawan to help with the racist additude towards non Japanese things. Nothing changed much then.
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 24, 2014 12:25:28 GMT
A quick google search suggests that both spellings are equally as common. The kanji used as the name of the kata means flight of the swallow or whatever similar variant but kanji can never be translated correctly into perfect English text as the alphabet is different as are the sounds of the vocalisations.
A further example would be "egg flied lice" as the oriental languages tend not to use the same RRRRRR sound that we do. Also consider the French "we won ze World Cup" as they don't use the "TH means fffffff" sound and the Dutch/Flemish GGGGCCCCHHHHH sound from the back of the throat that we native English speakers struggle with.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 24, 2014 13:17:53 GMT
Enpi and or Empi is about being lost in translation. Even the books from various
Zuki/Tsuki and Geri/Keri is different as it is about association. If you read my interview with Sensei Vilaca Pinto on TSW you will note that he was very specific on the spelling of same. In fact when I wrote the original interview draft out and shown it to Vilaca he was quite specific in the spelling simply because of the context of punching and kicking. I was not aware of the effect of the spelling when associated until it was pointed out. For that I thanked him.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 24, 2014 13:23:18 GMT
Previous post should read...
Even the books from various instructors/publishers read both Enpi or Empi.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by makoto on Feb 25, 2014 13:09:21 GMT
It can only be Enpi. Because in romanji there is no m. There is ma mi mu me mo, but no m. However, there is "n" only in romanji. I hope I explanined this well, if not google romanji and you will see what I am talking about. It is called Enpi not Empi.
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Post by kensei on Feb 26, 2014 12:47:28 GMT
Most of you are right. The spelling Empi or Enpi depends on whom you trained with and which "Ban" they spoke. The thing is when the Kanji is being translated in the begining they originally had a person read the Kanji for them and translate, the Pictographic alphabet of Japanese did not always come with a direct English to Japanese translation. They had to work through things and when an instructor would say "Kono kata wa Empi/Enpi to iu namae ga tsuke rare" the translater would say "this Kata is named empi" Now if the translator was from the south it may sound like "Empi" or from the north "enpi" or even "Enpai" They would not say "this form is called flying swallow" as some terms are not "common" in Japan.
I once had a student from Japan living with a friend of mine and we went through the Japanese Kata names and she said NONE of them really translate well. I showed her Tanaka senseis book and she translated it like " Okay, the Mae Geri is placed in such a way as to hit the abdomen prior to Mawashi geri". I said "oh, thats cool, they translate the same way"....she looked at me and said "what is Mae geri and Mawashi geri"?
We have to remember that some of the Japanese we use is not common terms but more like technical Jargon that you would use at work "the sternocleidomastoid muscle...." Yah, no one knows what the hell that is unless you say "oh, the neck muscle in the front of the neck here".
Enpi or Empi both mean the same thing and if you ask an instructor who knows Japanese well they probably pronounce it in such a way as you even can see it can be spelt both ways in our writing. Funakoshi did try to change a few names, but more so to make them Japanese over Okinawan. The original name of Empi was NOT empi....in Okinawa it was Wanshu. So he did change it to Enpi/Empi. He also tried to change Gojushiho to "wood pecker" or Kitsutsuki, but it never stuck.
Many of our "Japanese" terms are jargon and we simply have to remember that the "translation" of front kick may very well be "Mae Geri" but you may have to say Fronto Kikku to a japanese student if they dont know what "Mae Geri" is (bless you google translate).
Anyways, thats my 2.3 cents worth.
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Post by makoto on Feb 26, 2014 13:31:24 GMT
It might sound like Empi north or south of where I live, but when you put romanji to it, it can ONLY be spelled ENPI. It has nothing to do with translations.
After post. "N" by itself is a syllable in Japanese, but there is no syllable for "M" alone. So E-M-PI is impossible. While E-N-PI is the standard.
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 26, 2014 14:03:17 GMT
Why would it be translated via romaji? Isn't that just a way to put our 26 characters into Japanese?
While we are round about the subject what about jitte and jutte? Jiu jitsu and ju jitsu? Even jitsu and jutsu?
No two languages will ever translate perfectly especially if they do not even use the same alphabet surely.
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Post by kensei on Feb 27, 2014 13:03:15 GMT
Why would it be translated via romaji? Isn't that just a way to put our 26 characters into Japanese? While we are round about the subject what about jitte and jutte? Jiu jitsu and ju jitsu? Even jitsu and jutsu? No two languages will ever translate perfectly especially if they do not even use the same alphabet surely. While Gazrichards has forgotten to sign his post with his name...he is right. And part of the issue as I pointed out is in the way people "SOUND" when they say the Kata name. by "north" "South" I was illustrating that each center in Japan has their own "Ban" or dialect, kind of like putting a English person in a room with a Canadian, A Ausie, a souther US person and a northern US person with a South African. The thing is we may all be speaking the same lingo but we dont all sound the same...hell just have us all say roof! When someone was translating the Kata names or learning them someone obviously sounded like they said Empi. I remember thinking that the way Okizaki said some things and the way that Yaguchi said things was different, and they were pretty similar...then I trained with Ueki, Saeki, Tanaka, Imura and the thing is...I understood what they were waying in broken english (for those that had less English, Saeki Sensei speaks English better than me!) but their Japanese was all different.
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Post by makoto on Feb 27, 2014 16:09:26 GMT
Seriously??? If we follow those that do not agree with me, then by all rights, it is not karate, it is KALATE. It is like, in spite of me checking with people who do karate, and speak Japanese, aside from myself, you are telling me your misunderstanding of how Japanese words should be said in English and in Romanji is correct. Really?
When people look at a Japanese person say Enpi, they think it is Empi, because of the way the lips move. The lips come together in preparation for the p-sound. But make no doubt about it, the n-sound is said, and they are not saying m-sound, because m-sound as a single syllable does not exist in Japanese. The Japanese do not say Empi, it is not Empi. It sounds like Empi because you are an English speaker and that is what you hear.
jitte, not jyutte(jutte). ju jitsu, not jiu jutsu(G OO JUsuuuu)
It does not matter what language you speak, if you correctly say the romanji is the spelling and pronunciation is the same. Many non-Japanese here in Japan use Romanji to mail each other when Japanese is the only way to talk, and when one of them can not write Japanese.
"but their Japanese was all different". hmmm, that is like saying all the people I met from Quebec, all their French was different. It might sound different to you, but, I am sure they\(The Japanese Instructors) did not say M(a separate syllable)in Japanese, because it does not exist. Please understand, the sound M(as a stand alone syllable) does simply not exists. It is not a Japanese word, sound, whatever. You do not get to make up words at scrabble and claim to be a winner at the end. The same goes here. It is said and called, and correctly written as E-N-PI. Earlier version were due to a lack of understanding. But, if you people still want to say bad Japanese in the dojo, and continue to spell things wrong, and argue against people when told the correct way, then please feel free to do so. If it makes you happy.
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Post by makoto on Feb 27, 2014 16:25:59 GMT
燕飛. Google translate this. Look at Romanji.
First Kanji, can be pronounced EN(E+N) Sencond Kanji, can be pronounced PI
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 27, 2014 18:48:20 GMT
Whilst I am now bored of arguing the correct wordage of enpi/Empi I will just say that I believe its ROMAJI and not ROMA-N-JI Although it should technically have an accent over the O
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Post by kensei on Feb 27, 2014 19:42:30 GMT
John,
I got this from three different Japanese sources (instructors) one of which has perfect English. Im not arguing with you and Not going to say you are wrong. I am just presenting what I was told. The same however could be used to argue my side that you used.
For gods sake man, I just laid out what Nakayama, Tanaka, Yaguchi and several others have told me, what is wrong with you (I say with a smile). Im going to present what my side has to say, you say what yours has to say...but you never explain the use of Empi at all...what would you say was the reason for the use of the alternative spelling if your side basically says its wrong and does not exist???
And just to be clear, Im not serious in any way...but I do want to know your explanation.
J
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Post by makoto on Feb 28, 2014 6:32:59 GMT
forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1097965If you copy and past this link above, you can see the answer to if it is EMPI or ENPI. The problem comes from there being two kinds of Romanji rules. The older rule says that before P N turns into M. While the newer version of Romanji, just leaves it at N. However, the pronunciation of ENPI is still the same, it is said as EN+PI. I can tell you with out a doubt the syllable M does not exist. I am not sure how I can prove what does not exists. But, my link above should explain the EMPI and the ENPI problem.
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 28, 2014 8:55:06 GMT
But it is still romaji, someone on that forum even makes that point! It really boosts your credentials as a pedant and a know it all if you can spell the thing your are boasting to know all about, correctly
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 28, 2014 12:06:03 GMT
Oh dear pistols at dawn..or is it dawm?
Enpi used to be call Wanshu...Meikyo (with an M not an N) used to be called Rohai. Is this another case of "lost in translation" if no M exists?
Best Regards Allan
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 28, 2014 12:28:53 GMT
But wanshu and rohai have different meanings to enpi and meikyo. Wanshu means "dumping form" or some such and rohai means "visions of a crane". Funakoshi often didn't translate straight from Okinawan to Japanese but actually renamed the kata to have an alternate meaning. One exception would be nijushiho which is otherwise known as niseshi. Both of which mean 24 movements or steps. Also the tang soo do version is e sip sa bo in Korean which also means 24 movements.
Using the "old" names in this case won't help get to the correct answer I'm afraid.
Also a point that John (makoto) made is that the M sound isn't used in Japanese. That doesn't mean the ME sound isn't because I'd imagine it is. This just further adds to tne argument that you can not translate a Japanese kanji into an English alphabet without some problems.
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Post by kensei on Feb 28, 2014 12:34:34 GMT
Mawashi Geri-Round house kick Moto dachi-Fighting stance Mae Geri- Front kick Morote Uke- Augmented block Mac Donaldos- Eating house from hell Musubi Dachi- Feet together stance Mokuso- Meditate, no snoring Magetori Barai uke, Rising double knife hand block Mikazuki geri- Cresent kick Mawatte- turn around Mune-Chest Makiwara- Punching board Mukyu- No level rank Matsubayahsi ryu Pine forest style, A style of Shorin ryu Just having a hard time digesting that M does not exist with this evidence. Now, I dont speak Japanese and I have not seen the link (I will look in a tad) but to me as a English speaking North American who has had 30+ years training under Japanese speaking people and hearing "M" when refering to Empi...Im at a loss. I have asked and been told what I presented above of Japanese speaking people and I think maybe their is something lost in translation at some point. I dont pretend to be an expert in Japanese, just a fair handle on Karate for over 30+ Years so this is not my area of expertise...but Im just saying, if it looks like an "M" and sounds like an "M" is it not an M?
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Post by grunners4 on Feb 28, 2014 12:50:22 GMT
As Makoto said there is no English "m" pronounced 'em' by itself in Japanese. It is always used in conjunction with another vowel - so... ma/mi/mu/me/mo. Kensei you will see all your words above have this. There is however the "n" pronounced 'en' by itself - Shorin, Sochin, etc hence the argument that it should be Enpi. Here is a list of the basic sounds that make Japanese:
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 28, 2014 12:53:37 GMT
He isn't sayin that the letter m doesn't exist. Even though if you think about it, it doesn't. The MMMM sound exists but the letter doesn't. There is a kanji to represent the sound MO, ME, MI, MA etc but nothing to represent MMMM-P. That's my understanding of the other forum mako to links to (I took the time to read some of it before posting!)
Let's take this right back to basics...... In katakana and hiragana there are symbols (which I suppose the Japanese would think of as letters) to represent sounds that the mouth makes. There is a symbol for A, E, I, O, U etc and then others for KA, ME, HI etc etc.
The Japanese letters for karate involves 2 funny squiggly pictures that make up the sounds KARA and TE. In English we use 6 different funny squiggles that when all put together make up the sounds K A R A T E. The 2 can never be translated properly hence the need for a romaji (romanised Japanese) alphabet
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Post by grunners4 on Feb 28, 2014 13:07:22 GMT
Further you can write karate in Kanji or Hiragana - kanji would have two characters like you said but hiragana would have three because of the three syllables "ka" "ra" "te"
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Post by kensei on Apr 25, 2014 11:15:49 GMT
I am honestly curious as to why we call this Kata Empi! I am now told here that their is no "M" but again when taught the Kata by Okazaki, Yaguchi, Tanaka, Ueki, Koyama ext they all say Empi, not Enpi. Now it could be that I am hearing the "EM" in my head or something...which if you know me would not be unusual to hear things in my head that dont actually exist (not that I am saying Im Crazy or anything...just that its possible!).
I am not a linguist and I only speak Karate-nese so I am not saying I even know what I am talking about, just that its what I hear (again with the voices!). for those that do speak Japanese or at least know much more about it than me...any ideas?
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Post by garage on Apr 26, 2014 1:14:46 GMT
There I was swooping and soaring like a swallow everytime I did the kata, what an idoit. I am going to take off the feathers and stop eating flies and worms, and stop trying to think of the real name in the original bird chirps.
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Post by savicava on Jan 17, 2016 15:29:14 GMT
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