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Post by makoto on Mar 10, 2014 16:14:13 GMT
Ok, this is not about hitting things as such. But, when you are doing your basic middle body punch, where are you aiming your punch? Where do you feel the punching is going? (I am not posting this, to tell you are wrong later, just want to know what everyone else thinks first. I promise I will tell you my feeling about this after a few posts or comments have been made.)
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Post by garage on Mar 10, 2014 16:22:07 GMT
Solar plexus. If you hit the target they fall on the floor and stop. I actually don't care what anyone else does unless their method stops them quicker.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 10, 2014 16:25:42 GMT
Hi John
I have always been taught in Kihon Ido and Sonoba for Chudan to target the sternum with both punches and kicks...the reason being is that if you are on the button it closed down motor functions totally incapacitating your opponent. I remember being kicked mae geri in the sternum at the KUGB Nationals many years ago and I just folded up in a heap on the floor.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 10, 2014 20:39:11 GMT
For fresh air basics I tend to aim sternum height for OiTsuki and stomach height (about 1 fist height above the navel) for GyakuTsuki. With a partner (even for non contact) it changes.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 11, 2014 16:53:38 GMT
I focus the chudan level punch (reverse and stepping)on the Solar Plexus - and given I have no reference when doing air punching in Kihon - my own. However I like to do a lot of visualisation when doing kihon training and usually that involves the hikite pull down and the chudan punch aimed at my opponents dropped head (which conveniently happens to be at my solar plexus height... well certainly in my minds eye anyway )
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Post by Dod Watt on Mar 11, 2014 20:57:58 GMT
When I perform basic punching I don’t perticulary think either sternum or solar plexus makes any difference, it's the intensity that you deliver the technique, with proper speed timing and distancing, both can be equally disabling
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 11, 2014 21:35:31 GMT
For me the two levels of chudan between my oi tsuki and gyaku tsuki are not deliberately targeted it's just where my body mechanics fall if I perform the technique with form (I know people will say that if my form were correct then my punches would be consistant but if I don't correct these are my natural levels)
Good to see you back Dod BTW :-)
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 11, 2014 21:48:43 GMT
Hi Bob
Targeting is a prerequisite in kata, what is the point of punching randomly in the hope that we hit something!! Take Jion for example...when performing mae geri/chudan zuki/gyaku zuki the two punches hit the same target...known as waza waza it intensifies the impact.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 11, 2014 21:56:39 GMT
I don't disagree but kata is a different thing. There is a specific target as defined by the constraints and form of the kata performance and the relevent adjustments in level are made.
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Post by garage on Mar 12, 2014 6:01:52 GMT
I think it makes a big difference what you hit. Every karate book has a map of points, so what is the point if we ignore them.
There a whole raft of single knuckle and finger strikes that will only work against soft points.
By experiment if you do not hit the solar plexus above and around you will hit ribs which break easily this doesn't really bother anyone at the time having been on both sides of this experiment. I except if you get a rib to puncture a lung it may have the desired effect.
In full contact it becomes a war of attrition until you hit the button so I think it makes a big difference what you are aiming at. Most of the time on a moving target you are likely to miss.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 12, 2014 9:30:55 GMT
Please read John's original post! Is it not about targeting?
Kata is not a different thing...it is a template for Kumite as is Ido and Sonoba Kihon. There are specific targets whether our "opponent" is presenting themselves in Kihon, Kata, Kumite in a dojo or Joe Public in the street arena. What the 3 "K's" do is prepare us for the unexpected with Joe Public who is not "fighting" under the same rules that we encounter in the dojo environment.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by garage on Mar 12, 2014 9:50:27 GMT
Have re read the original post as instructed. It says " Where are you aiming your punch ". So I put where I am aiming and why.
Whilst I enjoy wasting time at work, I just confused as what you are trying to say?
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 12, 2014 11:24:23 GMT
Ok, I re-read the original question which is where am I aiming MY punch, that was the question I answered so I'm not sure how this became about my kata being "punching randomly" (which it isn't BTW).
If I'm preparing for fighting Joe Public in the street BTW I will not be targeting the sternum, I will be targeting the head (at what ever level it happens to be at the time) or a soft target like the ribs or gut.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 12, 2014 12:28:09 GMT
Cool a Debate...Hurrah! <With scant regard for his safety Mr Runge leaps in Metaphorically>
I would agree and disagree with Bob, Firstly I think visualisation is a very powerful tool when practicing technique in the air. As a principle I always attempt to be "in the moment" certainly with a target in mind as a minimum. I personally find this particularly difficult as I can get distracted by nearly anything (..should be working right now).
As a second principle, I have adopted in my kihon training the concept that chudan tsuki is actually a head punch with hikite, given that when fighting Joe Public - poor chap seems to have a beef with just about every martial artist - it is the high probability technique.
Hi Allan, I think I disagree with this ( not the punching randomly bit obviously).. as I am not sure I would emphasis Targeting in Kata, in fact I think targeting is naturally vague (or certainly not over prescribed).. for me kata isn't a series of techniques (performed at long range) but a set of fighting principles that are demonstrated through example. You then apply the principles by using techniques which you then target appropriately... So in the specific example you are bringing the targeting requirement with your interpretation of that set of movements in Jion. Waza Waza is not a japanese term I am familiar with, but I don't disagree with the principle.
If we accept that Kata is not an actual blue print on exactly how a particular fight will pan out..obvious general rules that support dominance (like continuous striking and hitting for example)are applied with those lessons learnt in kata as part of your wider response to a physical confrontation. As an example I interpret that section of Jion as the follow up take down after breaking grip and wedge blocking your opponent, which is a good flinch reaction recovery after being assaulted. Making my targets somewhat different from yours.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 12, 2014 15:44:54 GMT
Right....targeting is a prerequisite in kata ? Yes definitely but..most of the punches in most kata are performed at chudan level. Do we assume that kata just advicates body shots ? I believe not . I think it is more believable that the previous technique sets up a head shot at chudan level allowing you to drive the hips through . If you are going to specifically target chudan then solar plexus is a good target but then so is the floating rib, the liver, the kidneys. The bladder ? I could go on but then I think I have already.
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Post by D.Ram on Mar 13, 2014 6:57:57 GMT
I'll take a part of this thread, and completely deviate - on the topic of targetting, I assume some of you have tried using a bag/pad to aim your mawashi geri? I've found that kicking with the top of the foot provides significantly higher power, and ease of contact, than the more prescribed way of hitting with the ball of the foot. However, nearly all texts on the topic indicate that mawashi should make contact using the ball! Any thoughts - do some of you find it more effective to use the ball, instead of the top? <Edit: By "top", I refer to the face or the upper side of the foot!> ______________ The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 13, 2014 9:51:31 GMT
Hi John
"When you are doing your basic middle body punch, where are you aiming your punch? Where do you feel the punching is going?"
Ok...What are your feelings?
Best Regrads Allan
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Post by garage on Mar 13, 2014 12:31:28 GMT
Jim
"most of the punches in most kata are performed at chudan level. Do we assume that kata just advicates body shots ? " Why would karate be any different than bareknuckle boxing? If you read the history of this they tended to go for body shots to stop the damage to their hands as result of hitting a hard head. I have also seen the state of some peoples hands after they have hit someone in the head for real.
Dee Pak; the is a story that a stelleto heel in the head is the same force as an elephant standing on it. The ball of the foot has a smaller surface area so the same force is going through a smaller area. When using the instep you are spreading the force over a larger area. The instep makes a lounder noise as it is a slap so it sounds stronger. The ball of the foot sounds weak. The toes needed to be pointed and tensed to stop the small bones breaking. The ball of the foot is meant to be more leathal.
I notice when breaking baseball bats you tend to use your shin as the point of contact. The ball of the foot feels nicer when breaking tiles.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 13, 2014 18:34:40 GMT
Jim "most of the punches in most kata are performed at chudan level. Do we assume that kata just advicates body shots ? " Why would karate be any different than bareknuckle boxing? If you read the history of this they tended to go for body shots to stop the damage to their hands as result of hitting a hard head. I have also seen the state of some peoples hands after they have hit someone in the head for real. The key difference between karate and bare knuckle boxing is that for the pugilists it was a career. If you break a fist in a bout, that may spell the end of your fighting career and therefore your livelihood! Clearly in self-protection circumstances, that particular worry is hardly likely to be in the forefront of your mind. What is also interesting is how the change in rules and protective gear that was brought on by the marquis of queensbury and his legacy changed the very nature of the techniques employed in a boxing bout - including and not limited to, the angle of the fist (from vertical to horizontal), the position of the guard (from low to protect against throws and kicks to high) and the range at which the striking was undertaken (long range with barenuckle - to close range with good protective hand gear and a high guard).. I have discussed this very issue either on this forum or another (it escapes me which), but there are two very clear points to make: Firstly, kicking a punch bag is not the same as kicking a human being... the instep or shinh is much more effective against the flat heavy surface of a bag (or certainly feels so) than the ball of the foot. Secondly, there is a distinct difference in how you "air kick" vs how you kick a resisting target. I spent a large part of my early karate training perfecting the mawashigeri jodan kick - this was mostly done in the air with the ball of the foot. No false modesty - It was beautiful. The problem with that is that because you do not have any resistance at the end, you have to use your antagonistic muscles to stop the technique. When you apply the same muscle memory with kicking a bag (coupled with the flat surface) you don't get the proper follow through and do not apply the full body weight into the kick.. it took me a long time to untrain that one.. Interestingly a kick to the jaw on a real person never seemed to be a problem...
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Post by th0mas on Mar 13, 2014 18:39:10 GMT
Hi John "When you are doing your basic middle body punch, where are you aiming your punch? Where do you feel the punching is going?" Ok...What are your feelings? Best Regrads Allan yes John, cough up...
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 13, 2014 20:36:22 GMT
Particularly if you put them on the ground first
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 13, 2014 22:16:50 GMT
I maintain my position on this. Kata is a preservation of a civil fighting system. The raison d'ettre is to end the fight quickly. Body shots have too many variables; heavy clothing, muscular development, excess body weight, required accuracy differing body types . I understand completely boxing history and the advent of gloves ushering in an era of higher injury and death from an increase in targeting the head. This is not the same. I reiterate. Nearly all punches in kata are targeted chudan level. It makes no sense for chudan to be the target however. Not to me anyway.
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Post by garage on Mar 13, 2014 23:53:32 GMT
I see your point, with better food there are a lot more fat bas####s about but when the katas where developed maybe there where not as many people with gym membership and access to so much food.
If you hit a skull it as bits sticking out which cause point forces which after many hours hitting a post I can normally cause bone fractures to the eye sockets and sinuses. If you punch through the target I wonder if I am going to smash my hands like boxers who get in brawls. I will hit a brick wall as I am not going deep into the target, when I boxer does this he is punching through the target and smashes his hand. Punching a bag is nothing like hitting a person. I just have questions with no answers. If I am aiming the head I am still aiming at a point and per diagrams and places that have worked for me. I will bear this in mind the next time Joe public comes at me, a slow learning curve.
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Post by makoto on Mar 14, 2014 10:11:58 GMT
If I can, I would like to punch so my fist passes through his body like a bullet. But, when punching, I try to hit few inches below the surface. Not, right on the face or sternum, or the target, but deep into the target. Understand?
That is what I meant about aiming. Where are you stopping the punch. Should have been more clearer.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 14, 2014 11:03:25 GMT
Hi John
Yes...a better explanation would have possibly had a better response! But now your question and answer is understood.
Hopefully everyone understands that what we practice in kihon techniques entails sun dome...arresting the technique before contact is made. Whenever I mentioned targeting to students it is explained that the target is not surface but internal (or external) if going through the body. Maai is an important consideration for the two but shoulder extension plays an important role for going beyond the surface when punching as does closing the distance if not using shoulder extension. Sensei Asai (and Andre Bertel) was a great advocate of this "no kime" as we understand it concept.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by garage on Mar 15, 2014 10:06:11 GMT
Hi John, I thought it was good question, with a good response and a few view points expressed. If you had worded the question more carefully you would have pre determined what the likely answers to be therefore making the asking of the question pointless as everyone feels there must be a right answer and won't say anything for fear of being wrong.
I aim about 4 cm into the target. I practice to touch the target then adjust the foot position to get the depth when required. If I think like a bullet passing through the body I find that when I hit a body it won't go through and a lot of the force is disipated.
I also find finishing with the fist horizontal is not always the best as the wrist can collapse when it meets a greater resistance than expected. I think a punch is like einstien's rellativity, it is an event, in that when it happens is just as important as how.
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Post by makoto on Mar 15, 2014 14:35:31 GMT
I am still formulating a concept or an idea. But, Newton's cradle(Newton's balls? Does anyone think punching like this is the preferred method when punching something hard(ex: face)?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 15, 2014 18:05:29 GMT
Think I get the Newtons cradle idea ; transfering energy to your target ? I try to get as much of my body weight into the technique as possible and think that punching X amount of inches below the surface is only really useful as a visualisation tool . So yes, Newtons cradle !
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Post by garage on Mar 15, 2014 19:30:10 GMT
When the balls in newton's cradle strike the energy is transferred and the ball stops. So if you strike and stop can you get perfect energy transfer into the target?
If you strike a stack of tiles you are not going right through the stack you are only hitting the first one and the energy transfer is breaking the rest. I have found that if you strike a live target you can rupture internal organs such as the spleen without really reaching the spleen. Also backfist in the temple seems to get a knock out without really going through the target, I feel this is energy transfer into the head.
I feel they are different ways and you should have both. When it it a strike not a push?
A couple of boxers I have trained with have got in to brawls and their hands have required major surgery when they have punched through the target.
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Post by tomobrien1 on Mar 16, 2014 20:11:40 GMT
Solar plexus.
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