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Post by andyupton on Jun 8, 2014 14:03:06 GMT
If a Sensei is teaching Kata, say, Jion, and there is uncertainty about a particular technique, is it acceptable for the Sensei to refer to "Best Karate" Jion book during class ?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 8, 2014 18:07:52 GMT
I personally do not carry a copy of any book with me to class but if there was any uncertainty or disagreement I would freely admit i was unsure and commit to having the answer at next class. I see nothing wrong with referencing either by book or google.
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Post by garage on Jun 8, 2014 18:52:14 GMT
I find the 2 volumes of kanasawa's books take up less space in the kit bag. I find an I pad is better with a utube video.
If you are arrogant like me and do not check you practice the wrong thing. Perhaps it shows the instructor is human and not a god or they do not practice enough and do know the kata. You have decide and judge.
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Post by malk103 on Jun 10, 2014 13:17:53 GMT
I think we are all students and all human, we also develop bad habits and there are several differences between styles and instructors. if questioned i think it's right for the instructor to investigate and come back with an answer, maybe not straight away, rather than just state they are correct. i often show any differences with relevant potential applications but will happily check any conflict
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Post by gazrichards on Jun 10, 2014 22:20:08 GMT
If, as an instructor you wish to follow the teachings the way they are written in a particular book then fair enough I suppose. It's not the way I do things in my classes. I'm sure all of us that are club instructors and coaches have multiple books on kata and refer to them from time to time (as well as youtube vids etc) and I have done it in a class to try and give an answer to a question on the spot. It's got to be preferable to the coach that just carries on teaching it completely wrong (which I'm sure many of us have dealt with too) Personally in my classes I explain that there are multiple ways of doing a kata and sometimes even try to demonstrate the variations that I know to the class, especially senior grades. But I generally only teach it one way and I try and keep that way consistent to prevent confusion but I have to admit that sometimes what I teach and what I train are 2 different things!!!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jun 11, 2014 10:06:36 GMT
Who decides what is wrong and what is right? Been on too many expensive "courses" simply to change the hand position in bassai-dai to worry about it any more. If the student understands the underlying principle and is performing the kata with good form and spirit, that is far more important to me.
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Post by ruestir on Jun 11, 2014 14:59:03 GMT
It's a bit funny this topic has come up. A guy I've recently started training with, a Godan in Kanazawa's lineage, is a real stickler for doing the kata "right". He has the Best Karate series on hand at the dojo and has pulled them out once to show me the book's justification. I'm with Jim on the, "understands the underlying principle and is performing the kata with good form and spirit" aspect of things then worrying about whether the hand should be "just below shoulder, or just above waist height".
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Post by tomobrien1 on Jun 12, 2014 1:47:31 GMT
I am always referencing the books & videos. There are 3 things that go on you when you get old. The first is your memory & the other 2 I forget
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Post by nathanso on Jun 14, 2014 20:03:04 GMT
As a general rule, I think that it is better for a teacher in any subject to admit that they don't know something and need to look it up rather than just make up something on the spot. I also think that it is fine to refer to a standard (book, video, instructional notes, etc.) when teaching kata as part of a grading syllabus or as performance art. The problem comes when the instructor claims or the student assumes that is the only unique way of doing it and that any applications derived from the kata have to rigidly follow the performance art template.
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Post by D.Ram on Jun 16, 2014 9:05:04 GMT
Oss Neil, I think the original question was, whether you would be okay with your Sensei opening up the book/video in class! Personally, I am very much in agreement that one should read/view as many viewpoints as possible for a more rounded learning - but I would find it quite disturbing if my teacher pulled out such an "aid" in class! I would instead expect that the teacher was already well-versed with whatever he had chosen to study :-) ______________ The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
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Post by nathanso on Jun 16, 2014 22:33:19 GMT
Depends on the flow of the class. I frequently ask students to pick an advanced kata that they want to work on or learn. Occasionally, they pick one that I don't practice on my own a lot. I don't think that I've ever needed to stop to look something up, but if we are going over it move by move with them asking questions, I may lose the flow and just have to start over and do it from the beginning without interruption to get it right.
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Post by ruestir on Jun 19, 2014 18:59:34 GMT
The problem comes when the instructor claims or the student assumes that is the only unique way of doing it and that any applications derived from the kata have to rigidly follow the performance art template. This is the issue I am presently having. It wouldn't be as big a deal for me if I had sought out this particular instructor to teach me, but he found me and asked me to come be an assistant instructor for him. I get not teaching people contradictory things, but I'm having a REAL hard time being told that the execution of my kata is incorrect because the movement of my techniques don't look like the way he thinks they should based on a still picture in a book. If I had heard similar criticisms from Elmar before going there I might be more open to what the guy says. The little rant aside, I'm not saying my karate is perfect nor am I above being corrected. I'm just having a hard time being corrected on something that isn't either relevant or wrong.
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Post by daveb on Jun 19, 2014 20:26:18 GMT
Are his corrections functional or just empty performance art? Is your own performance based on application?
If his changes interfere with your application then perhaps try showing him what his revisions stand to miss out?
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Post by garage on Jun 19, 2014 22:56:09 GMT
I have attended classes given by instructors from the 50's and 60's all having been taught by Funakoshi. What they do is not the same despite having been in the same classes.
I have taught classes in different associations and styles and just change it to suit what they think is important to them. There are more things in common than are different.
I find taking my thumb out my arse improves my look but that is just me.
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Post by malk103 on Jun 20, 2014 12:12:48 GMT
The problem comes when the instructor claims or the student assumes that is the only unique way of doing it and that any applications derived from the kata have to rigidly follow the performance art template. This is the issue I am presently having. It wouldn't be as big a deal for me if I had sought out this particular instructor to teach me, but he found me and asked me to come be an assistant instructor for him. I get not teaching people contradictory things, but I'm having a REAL hard time being told that the execution of my kata is incorrect because the movement of my techniques don't look like the way he thinks they should based on a still picture in a book. If I had heard similar criticisms from Elmar before going there I might be more open to what the guy says. The little rant aside, I'm not saying my karate is perfect nor am I above being corrected. I'm just having a hard time being corrected on something that isn't either relevant or wrong. I had this problem, it was fine as I was coming up through the ranks but from 1st Kyu I started to explore different applications and see slight differences, then came the realisation that most of the differences were just bad form. It was fine to show lower grades the basic bunkai but don't try telling a Shodan/Nidan the kids version, especially things like lower x block against a full on front kick! Only works if you have arms like Popeye and they have their arms tied behind their back... IMHO It came to a head after watching a grading and seeing students performing the Kata badly or missing out the same move etc. I now run my own clubnights indendantly and train with 2 local seniors who also have their slight variations but this is more due to personal preference, the application of their prefered bunkai or their own individual style. Both of them have stopped and showed slight changes between the styles but normally added their own reason for them doing it a certain way. certainly not just bad form.
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Post by kensei on Jun 20, 2014 12:27:12 GMT
you know what, I might use one of my MANY books to refer to when training and I normally only teach that which I have worked on that week in my personal training. If I am teaching a Kata I will often go and look at Enoeda Sensei's book, Kanazawa Sensei'sbook or Nakyama Sensei's book...or one of the other books i have, I even look at one book I call the "Dont do it this way book, and then make out a mental plan for things to teach. I never teach just "lets go through Jion" kind of classes. I break down parts of the Kata into skills that need to be worked on, be it turning or hip this or that, and then after going through drills and exercises I then do the whole Kata.
One thing I have learned over the years is that at any moment the JKA can change something or "clarify" it, this means that we end up with a slight variation in parts or an emphasis on something we never looked at before, so you must be flexibile of thought and after reviewing Nakayama senseis kata series that is the way I go.
I dont see anything wrong with someone grabbing a book and reviewing a move, I would not do it in the middle of class mind you but you can run to the office after and review it and then bring the correction to the class next time.
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Post by ruestir on Jun 24, 2014 19:12:43 GMT
Are his corrections functional or just empty performance art? They have a function, a questionable one. The hammer fist strike from Heian Shodan is done assuming your "attacker" has decided to grab your arm with both hands and you're pulling free. So, to do the kata "properly" I must pull my feet completely together turning sideways while simultaneously pulling my hand to my knees before stepping back out and executing the hammer fist strike. Yes, a cross handed grab with consideration that a punch from the other hand is coming. So far any thought that I've offered that doesn't coincide with his thinking has been immediately dismissed as a lack of experience on my part in dealing with "real world" attacks.
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Post by ruestir on Jun 24, 2014 19:14:56 GMT
especially things like lower x block against a full on front kick! I got this one last night while I was performing Kanku Dai. I bit my tongue.
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Post by nathanso on Jun 24, 2014 23:28:37 GMT
especially things like lower x block against a full on front kick! I got this one last night while I was performing Kanku Dai. I bit my tongue. That is the perfect application- while blocking the front kick with the X-block, you bite off your tongue and blow it out into your opponent's throat, thus crushing his windpipe. BTW, is it too soon to start trash-talking about the Apple Cup?
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Post by garage on Jun 25, 2014 10:23:02 GMT
I always thought the rising punch in enpi was to get people to bit off their tongues.
Go Cougars perhaps?
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Post by ruestir on Jun 25, 2014 11:17:02 GMT
That is the perfect application- while blocking the front kick with the X-block, you bite off your tongue and blow it out into your opponent's throat, thus crushing his windpipe. OSU! It's never too early. Leach is going to make Peterson wish he'd stayed at BSCC.
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Post by ruestir on Jun 25, 2014 11:20:29 GMT
I always thought the rising punch in enpi was to get people to bit off their tongues. Go Cougars perhaps?
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Post by kensei on Jun 25, 2014 14:53:49 GMT
we all know that some of the applications we are forced to smile at when instructors quote them are....how would the Brits say it...bullocks! I have been told some pretty funny applications in classes and tend to have to stop myself from rolling my eyes, and as many of you have guessed Im not one to hold my thoughts to myself...even when I really really should.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 25, 2014 15:06:00 GMT
As you might say "Close, but no Cigar"
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Post by kensei on Jun 25, 2014 15:21:22 GMT
Crap, how do you spell it, I have been using it like a git lately......was that close? Damn English English...so much easier to swear like an American than an Englashman!
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Post by nathanso on Jun 25, 2014 18:05:12 GMT
Americans don't swear- we cuss.
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Post by daveb on Jun 25, 2014 18:07:09 GMT
Swap the vowels. The hammer fist strike from Heian Shodan is done assuming your "attacker" has decided to grab your arm with both hands and you're pulling free. So, to do the kata "properly" I must pull my feet completely together turning sideways while simultaneously pulling my hand to my knees before stepping back out and executing the hammer fist strike... So far any thought that I've offered that doesn't coincide with his thinking has been immediately dismissed as a lack of experience on my part in dealing with "real world" attacks. Hmm sounds like you two need a pressure testing session where you both run through all the applications you know, looking for weaknesses etc and settle on best practice for the class. Best done with an impartial but well informed third party. If he's not open to that then I'd move on.
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Post by ruestir on Jun 26, 2014 13:16:13 GMT
Hmm sounds like you two need a pressure testing session where you both run through all the applications you know, looking for weaknesses etc and settle on best practice for the class. Best done with an impartial but well informed third party. If he's not open to that then I'd move on. I agree and I plan to chat privately with him about this very thing this evening. I've thought about it a lot since Monday night and it will become untenable eventually if it's not addressed.
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Post by daveb on Jun 27, 2014 8:13:07 GMT
I hope it went well.
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Post by garage on Jun 27, 2014 13:33:34 GMT
The other way to look at it Sensei should never be seen to look at a book as, he is the source of all knowledge, to create independant learners who could think for themselves whould interfere with the hero worship and income.
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