|
Post by tomobrien1 on Jul 20, 2014 2:44:26 GMT
|
|
|
Post by daveb on Jul 20, 2014 11:47:32 GMT
Hmmmm...
Now there was some good advice in the article but little detail on how to realise the ideas. Those details are the difference between a good article and an irresponsible joke. Roll on pt 2....
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jul 20, 2014 13:29:19 GMT
There are a lot of things in the article that are true but even from the guys who understand the difference between training for competition and training fundamentals there is still no acknowledgement of the flaws in the way Shotokan is typically taught. I may well be taking these quotes out of context (and I suspect they are only there as "sound bites" in the original ) and Now this may be true and it is the sort of training I grew up with BUT it is also very apparent that many who have spent years training this way may have excellent technique and body dynamics but still have absolutely no idea of how to apply these under stress in the chaos of a real confrontation away from the dojo. I have had decades of being told that "kata is the core of karate" by seniors who believe this but clearly have absolutely no idea why and how (hence neither do their students, and so it goes on ). Another section that is true in itself but is not reflected (generally) in training The problem is (IMO) that, much like our basics, we seem to have confused quantity with quality, our forms ARE "chock-full of self defense" BUT are seldom, if ever, trained this way in most "traditional" clubs where your grade is (seemingly) judged by how many kata you know and how precisely you can perform them rather than can you demonstrate the full functionality of even the most basic kata? So the upshot of this ramble is that I agree that Shotokan has pretty much everything you need for self defence, that simple is best when it comes to a response so practice a few basics well and often so they become second nature and look to kata for application practice. What I don't agree with is the "we don't train for sport therefore we are doing the real thing" attitude (at least kumite competition puts you under some level of stress) and that "kata is the key, train long and hard enough and understanding will come (it'll have to because you'll get no explanation from us)". There is nothing wrong with practising Shotokan as a sport or as a "Do" for it's own sake and for many that's what they want, just don't pretend that "self defence" will magically drop out of this as a side effect in any sort of efficient way. For any self defence art to be useful you should be able to take something from it that you can use within months (or even weeks) and so need to train that way (if self defence is what you are after). Shotokan CAN do that for you IF you train in the right place.
|
|
|
Post by daveb on Jul 20, 2014 16:45:35 GMT
Precisely!
I'm hoping that part two acknowledges these things and describes actually training self defence techniques from the kata. It's certainly not an approach that the JKA is famous for, but things may have changed (Im not in a position to know).
The bottom line is you will not develop skills that you don't practice. That includes landing a punch on a moving opponent and escaping from common holds.
Furthermore the habits you train with are what you will take into the real world. That includes stopping after a single counter punch.
Shotokan has fantastic tools for self defence, but there are very very few who understand both what those tools are and what real self defence requires. IMO if you really want self defence as a Shotokan man you should find a good Kapap school or equivalent accredited reality based school and learn as much as they have to teach.
It''ll be clear before long where their lessons intersect with our technical knowledge and Kata sequences and as well as building skills in controlling and escaping opponents, it starts to become clear how training in martial arts is about developing one's abilities not clinging to any one tribe.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Jul 20, 2014 22:36:43 GMT
Change the "1" to a "2" in the url for part 2.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 11:33:15 GMT
"Remain aware" You see this all the time "be aware" "stay aware" but no one ever tells you to what to be aware of or how to do it?
“When you walk into parking structures and other potentially dangerous places, you should always be aware" Yeah great, but aware of what and how do I "be aware?". Firstly without details this is just pointless, secondly you should be aware ALL THE TIME you're out of the house not just when you walk into a car park etc.
You need to inform people of practical thing like Coopers Colour Codes, explain in detail what each one means, explain how you transition from Yellow , to Orange to Red etc etc and give practical real world examples of what each colour MEANS so people an relate and understand.
Throw away comments like "be aware", with no further information or instructions is like is like saying to a child "don't get run over"' Pointless unless you teach them who to avoid getting run over.
Okay, so you student is in the Parking Structure and they are aware someone is following them, then what do hey do? The answer is they don't know, because you haven't taught them that they have to move to Code Orange and set their action triggers which will tell them to either go into Code Red or Code Yellow depending on what the assailant does. You haven't taught them, you've just told them to "be aware" because you have no idea what practical self defence means and therefore have no idea what to teach them, but hey you've told them to "be aware" so I now I can put the words "teaches Self Defence" on my website and that will get more people through the door.
Also "“Shotokan karate is self-defense" is nonsense. No martial art is self defence, Martial Arts have next to nothing to do with Self Defence. The Suzy Lamplaugh Trust teach self defence, yet don't teach a single physical technique.
95% of Self Defence is Threat & Awareness Evaluation and Target Hardening. 4% is Verbal & Physcal de-escalation. And 1% when everything else has gone wrong, and you have no other option (not even escape) then and only then do physical techniques come into it.
When you are looking at Self Defence, if you end up on the ground you need to learn how to get back up as quickly as possible (you certainly don't ant to be rolling around like BJJ looking for joint locks as while your doing that his mates are using your head as a football) where in Shotokan do you learn that? This is just one example.
Martial arts and self defence they are two very different things.
Self Defence is:- Threat & Awareness Evaluation Target Hardening The Fence Coopers Colour Codes Verbal & Physical de-escalation Learning the Rituals of Violence Self Defence & the Law.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 21, 2014 12:40:52 GMT
I cannot go along with the assertion that karate is not self defence or is not equipped to teach it. As an instructor I have a responsibility to make my teaching reality based and relevant. That means understanding the lessons kata teaches. Understanding conflict dynamics and cross training to fill the gaps that a striking and upright grappling art has. It is easy to highlight these gaps ; that karate is useless for gound fighting or against a blade or at close quarters. The reality is that you are unlikely to encounter someone skilled in ground work . No unarmed combat will help against a determined knife-weilder and karate is fabulous at close quarters. Students should be shown gross motor skills first. These are techniques requiring little training to be effective. Its not the art, its the approach.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Davis on Jul 21, 2014 13:43:48 GMT
Very much agree with this. Karate is very much a close quarter art (IMO) but is not practiced that way in many (if not most) traditional schools which is why a lot of what we do doesn't seem to make any sense and why "classical" kata bunkai looks so foolish. I did spend a very good weekend in a field recently with a group of mixed style (Shotokan, Goju & Wado) Karate people where the emphasis was very much on the practical, including ground fighting using karate techniques (it can be done ), Again, I very much agree with this sentiment BUT the reality is that instructors who teach this way seem to be quite thin on the ground and many (myself included) have no basis other than dojo training to teach from. This is one of the reasons I train around with people from a variety of backgrounds (not all classical MA's), to fill those "reality" gaps in my knowledge. I find it encouraging that in all the times I've done that, if I approach with the right mind set, my Shotokan training is entirely suited for and applicable to the situation. I will concede that the physical aspects (fighting) of self defence are a very small part of the whole "self protection" umbrella (for when everything else has gone wrong), however those ARE the aspects that people come into a dojo to learn and if they want the rest then a Karate club is probably not the best place to learn it.
|
|
|
Post by daveb on Jul 21, 2014 18:52:19 GMT
I cannot go along with the assertion that karate is not self defence or is not equipped to teach it. As an instructor I have a responsibility to make my teaching reality based and relevant. That means understanding the lessons kata teaches. Understanding conflict dynamics and cross training to fill the gaps that a striking and upright grappling art has. It is easy to highlight these gaps ; that karate is useless for gound fighting or against a blade or at close quarters. The reality is that you are unlikely to encounter someone skilled in ground work . No unarmed combat will help against a determined knife-weilder and karate is fabulous at close quarters. Students should be shown gross motor skills first. These are techniques requiring little training to be effective. Its not the art, its the approach. The problem is that the attitude displayed in the article is one of sheer complacency. Rne02 nailed it: the physical techniques of self defense are a fraction of what a responsible teacher of self defence passes on. So quoting the precepts like it's the bible and adding obvious pointers with no additional depth is irresponsible because it reinforces a false sense of competence. I don't dispute that the right approach can bring superb combative methods out of Shotokan Karate. I do dispute that endless repetitions of basic techniques will reliably lead to effective understanding and skill in those methods. I am happier denying that "Shotokan is self defence" because if nothing else it will make those who want self defence look harder to find what that phrase means instead of thinking they are sorted by marching up and down punching air.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 9:52:22 GMT
As an instructor I have a responsibility to make my teaching reality based and relevant. I am interested in how you make things relevant for your female students as I am sure this would be of great hep to others. Shotokan and karate in general is designed by men for men to deal with the sorts of violence men face. Men are statistically more likely to be kicked/punched to death, by strangers, in the street. Women are more likely to be strangled, at home, by partner/ex partner. (Working on UK statistics here, we don't tend to shoot each other too often). Most instructors talk about violence in terms or male on male violence, street/bar fights, being hit with bottles/beer glasses, the dangers of "his mates joining in", that sort of thing. Women face different sorts of situational and different sorts of attacks. uk.news.yahoo.com/video/estimated-two-women-week-england-050012897.html
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 6, 2014 11:29:26 GMT
To answer the question addressed directly to me; I make my teaching relevant by research, reference to previous experience which , unfortunately for me , is extensive and by adapting to the situation. However most of self defence needs to be preemptive where possible and reactive where its not. It is unworkable IMO to say if opponent does this you do that. Principles apply across the board regardless of gender. Due to the nature of my work I have a lot of experience in disengaging and escape techniques which I carry into my teaching and have cross trained in several martial arts. I am not perfect by any means but I do feel a great responsibility to my students to teach effective, functional techniques that will not worsen a situation or be ineffective.
|
|
enso
Member
Posts: 5
|
Post by enso on Jul 24, 2016 19:31:35 GMT
I know this is an old thread but the title caught my eye and (my apologies here) but I had to chuckle a bit. I thought Shotokan and self defense was an oxymoron! Before you throw stones at me, thinking I'm from a different system I'm not. I've studied Shotokan for many years...old school. You know....since the days before Joon Rhee invented safety gear? Yea...who the hell is Joon Rhee right? Anyway, I guess you can make anything (or try) into self defense. How well that works out for you is another story. Classroom success and real fights/self defense are two very different animals. But back to Shotokan and what it is or isn't. Without a long history lesson here...we are on the Internet aren't we? Look it up...Shotokan is pretty new. Funakoshi's karate had little to do with today's Shotokan (or Shotokan at all). Let's cut this even shorter. Funakoshi practiced Te (ti or Tode etc) back in Okinawa (not Shotokan). He made his way to Japan at some point many years later and began teaching there. He taught Nakayama who decided to re-tool it and make Shotokan. Nakayamas eyes must have been wide and his excitement uncontainable as he saw notoriety in his future by the prospect of taking karate,as it was now called, to the Olympics and the sport arena and and reforming it into this great Sport/exercise program. Kata? Yea he kept them but now made them exercise routines with no real application other than the empty stuff shown at the end of all those old Shotokan kata books. Not real. Laughable actually. Basically self defense was taken out of karate and replaced with form practice, exercise and competition. A moving mediation of sorts is what Shotokan kata became and now called "karate-do" perfection of character was sought. Sure you learned to kick and punch and if you were athletic enough could probably fight but is that karate? Kickboxers do the same thing? Sorry but in reality Shotokan is sport and exercise with discipline and self improvement included. Self defense is in the kata and Shotokans class structure clearly isn't designed for that. Okinawan karate is...the class revolves around application and solo kata is reserved for home practice not perfect form in class. Kihon and kumite aren't separated from kata in pieces. Kata "is" the class.
|
|
|
Post by garage on Jul 26, 2016 19:45:03 GMT
If you read about shotokai this was the way that carried on from Funakoshi. Gives a perspective on the petty politics. Funakoshi's funeral was not attended by some people because they where not allowed to organise it. From a land of honour how do you ever come back from that? Emulate the way of Shotokan you need a massive fragile ego and be really racist.
It is not something that I want. Glad it still makes you laugh, I find it all very sad and pathetic. Perhaps next week I won't care.
|
|