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Post by sakura on Sept 18, 2014 18:18:59 GMT
Yes spelled wrong purposefully.
Seriously who is this guy? Must be a child posting the rubbish he posts. Jr I'd obvioudkyvan extremely insecure inciped little child who had no concept of karate do. Rather a baby crying for hid rattler. Our response is to pray for him as he needs divine intervention and possibly medicines. Sounds pschycotic, narsisistic, fearful, afraid, etc. He has never read nor understands the dojo kun. Its shameful. Thus why he attacks.
However it is a compliment and greatcadvertiding for this american who us genuinely a threat person not to mention his teaching skills and above average ability to impart into all who study karate.
Remember pray for Andre Bertel. We all need to be loving when could open their mouths. Feel pity for him. Font attack him and play the bullies game, ignore and love. Maybe the crratet of the universe seen and jnsern can impart something in Andre Bertels foolish mind and I'll intentions. As we have recently been taught by both the Americans that viditrf Europe, karate is love!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Sept 18, 2014 22:36:01 GMT
Hello Sakura
Could you please sign in with your real name so we can all see who you are?
Best Regards Allan
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Post by garage on Sept 22, 2014 15:33:58 GMT
andrebertel.blogspot.co.uk/Firstly it makes a great change to discuss shotokan, instead of the usual quotes from the portly blokes from Wado Ryu and Aikido. To begin with I found the post a bit of a rant and wondered why someone would post something like this about someone they had never met. Then I checked the blog, and the latest post is equally ranty, Everything is Western drival and if you went to Japan they will smash your teeth in. Whatever happened to Asai Karate disappointed to see that went out the window. Oh well, two trolls does not make either right.
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Post by kensei on Sept 23, 2014 12:43:34 GMT
LOL, Bert...I like that...might have to "borrow it".
Trolling against someone, Andre included, is not what the OSS is about. This post had no real quality of sharing other than someone pissing and moaning about a guy that is not on this forum. I would not even have replied if not for your great line, again I intend to use that going forwards.
I found this posting to be rather disrespectful, right from the childish post using a female name and then lighting into him for his views.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Sept 23, 2014 20:59:30 GMT
Oh dear me here we go again...please do not think that this is in defence of Andre. More about the principles of double standards!!
James you say you found the post disrespectful but that did not stop you from sounding off yet again!! What is so different between your's and Sakura's posting???
You obviously have an issue with Andre (or is it people in general who move associations) since you go into great detail expressing your dislike for his journey which I understand started 33 years ago today which has let him arrive at the JKA which I understand is an organisation that you (and I) are a member of. Don't you think you are being disrespectful to the JKA and it's membership since it is the JKA that has welcomed him with open arms.
Do you know Sakura by any chance?
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Sept 29, 2014 22:25:25 GMT
Hey Allan,
You are correct, For those that did not see my drivel...its not worth the read. I posted it while very tired and not thinking. and in fact I dont actually have an issue with Andre and upon re-reading my sleep induced stupidity I found I offended myself. Many appologies for the typed vomit that almost passed as a post. I have watched Andre over the years from about as far away as a person can get and while I may not agree with many of his ideas, I find him to be intellegent and more importantly he has a great deal of passion towards Karate. My last post made it seem as though I was upset at something a person who is about as much a stranger as you can get had done...many appologies to those that had to read my sleepy drewl of a post.
As far as moving associations, I dont have an issue with it really, I think that as long as its not politically motivated or on a promise for advancement of rank and its for legit reasons...go for it! I myself had left an association or two in my day and I am JKA again. I tend to like the JKA and want to stick with them as long as I can. I dont find that my (False and really not worded well) post was disrepsectful to the JKA, it is a monster of an association that has many moving parts. I dont think that even if I was upset for "letting someone in" that I could be upset with the whole organization...or even a group of members. Personally I hope that many more people come in, More people to train with!
I dont know who Sakura is, He did not sign his email and I suspect that since his little post he wont be back. But if he does, welcome to the OSS, were I hope even sleep deprived posters like me are forgiven!
J
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Post by garage on Sept 30, 2014 12:17:27 GMT
Let's not be dis respectful to the JKA, but it is ok for it's members to sweepingly say that everyone from the west talks drival and that if they came to Japan they would need dental treatment after they have been shown the error of their ways.
I think that shows that you can never graduate from Karate as the rules will always change to suit those that make them. This does not detract from the physical skills of some of it's members being outstanding, but the attitude is appaling.
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Post by kensei on Sept 30, 2014 17:55:09 GMT
Bert,
First "Members" meaning one person with a Blog right! I am a member of the JKA and know several JKA people from Japan, they dont say such things. Also, I know of western Karate ka that say the same things about Japan and the west. Lets remember its one person that says these things and he probably, like myself, would prefer to have not printed it in such a way.
The thing with blogs and posting here is that we are often victims of our own verbal (typed) Diahrea and we dont think before we hit send.
As for your last bit, in some cases that is so very true. I think SOME PEOPLE have lost sight of what Karate is for. Its not a sport, its an art that has some sport aspects to it, I know that some people who are high level 7th Dans who teach who are not able to keep up with young guys like Andre, so does that mean they dont deserve their ranks?
Lets temper our contempt for the WHOLE JKA with the understanding that the blog post was made by one person that just came back and is enamered with his new organization. I think for some part its kind of healthy....
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Post by garage on Oct 1, 2014 8:42:12 GMT
I do no know people from the JKA but have been in a room at the same time as they have been a little drunk and they did say similer things. I always found it is always your round.
I have equal comtempt for any organisation that forgets at the end of the day you are a customer and should be provided with the services you pay for. Be it golf or Karate
It is not that the 7th Dan's can't keep up with the younger guys that means they don't deserve ther ranks it is the fact they proabably awarded them to their selves and each other that makes me feel they don't deserve them.
Respect is a 2 way street.
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Post by kensei on Oct 2, 2014 11:25:12 GMT
I do no know people from the JKA but have been in a room at the same time as they have been a little drunk and they did say similer things. I always found it is always your round. dont paint everyone with the same brush, even if your experience is not good with a group of people. In our organization (Local) My instructor will not stand for boast, ego or being an ass and in the last two years we have seen some of those types of people leave because of the fact that they dont get respect when they demand it and we tend to remind them that everyone can be beat in a sport, but no one should feel beaten in an art...regardless of skill! I would say that any and all organizations, be it Karate, TKD or full contact tiddly winks will have their share of ass heads that simply dont know when to keep their mouth shut (I often fall into this catagory by the way) and or stop being an egotist (of which I would like to think I never suffer from). And you will run into a fair share of drunken morons, but that could be true if you were a foot ball (Soccer for us North Americans)fan and ran into fellow fans at a pub (Bar for those of us from the new world). I would say that this experiece is saddly not going to end as long as you have ego driven people doing Karate...or any other endevour. I have equal comtempt for any organisation that forgets at the end of the day you are a customer and should be provided with the services you pay for. Be it golf or Karate I completely agree, but part of the issue is also with the masses that throw themselves at the organiztion flag holders like they are Gods. For those of us that hold a healthy level of respect for those that came before but realize they are flawed and not gods its not as big a deal. In Canada we have Saeki Sensei who is NOT an ego driven person and is honest and probably a bit to protective of us. He brings in instructors to help us along the way but he also makes sure we get what we pay for each and every time. I have not been to his Koyo in a bit but plan on going this upcoming year and continuing to visit in the summer at that camp. Its well worth the cost and the annual dues are low enough that you dont flinch when you pay them. some organizations want your money and give you little back, our National body is not like that and to be frank, I have never been burned by the JKA at all, ever. However I have been burned by other organizations that we left, which is always the answer. If you feel burnt, dont bitch and moan and carry on like a idiot waiting for the answers...you have your answer .....Leave! Find a group that is good for your development that respects you. Some will settle with the JKA and ignore the individual members that seem to be a bit to high on themselves and train with those that are great and help out. Remember these bad organizations are only as bad as the top guys! An organization may be fantastic, but have a few Yahoo's that you need to avoid. Actually I would suspect that every organization has its good and its bad. The trick is seeing if the good is worth staying for and the bad is able to be ignored! It is not that the 7th Dan's can't keep up with the younger guys that means they don't deserve ther ranks it is the fact they proabably awarded them to their selves and each other that makes me feel they don't deserve them. My strong belief is that up to Godan the ranking is based on what you can do with your Karate, after that its based on what have you dont for your Karate! After Godan most ranks are political and we need to drop the guise that its not. I mean look at age requirements and tell me that a 20 year old Nidan is not going to mop the floor with a 7th Dan. I mean on average the age of a 2nd Dan is 18-25 years of age, in their athletic prime. Most 4th Dans are between 30-40 and 5th Dans45-50, You get to 7th dan and most are in their late 50-60's in legit organizations. If real fighting has shown us anything most people are past their prime for Kumite at least around 40! You may excel at different areas and be a great teacher...but a athletic 20 year old will kill you in Kumite...and I would have to say that the strict legit guide lines for promotion should include a notice that once you get a 6th Dan and techncially you are on decline...well your ranking is more based on what you are doing to give back to the organization and Karate. We need to stop fooling ourselves, Not everyone is dangerous at 60 like Yaguchi was or Tanaka. You have to look at the person and ask if they have given back and why thay are getting rank. Also, if you self rank, well you open yourself up to ridicule like a mad man. I totally respect what Yahara did for his 8th Dan and he is not even JKA. To say "no, I wont accept being given a rank, I will grade infront of a board of my peers" well thats true spirit! It could be said that he was going to be given the rank regardless of his test, but the truth is that he did not just take it from someone he actually graded for it. However, having said that....If someone was "Granted" their 7th,8th or 9th after serving the JKA or other organizations for 30+ years I would back it up 110%. I mean thats a life time of service and work! But I also agree, saying "As of today I am a 7th Dan...dont question me, I deserve it" Yah, that triggers my flight reaction! Respect is a 2 way street. A while back I had to deal with a sempai that demanded respect and gave little or nothing back in return, he demanded his every whim be taken as law and he went over the cheif instructors head often and tried to force his ideas and commands on us. It forced me to really look at and examin what my ideas on respect were and I was months away from leaving my instructor and the organization to join a different group if it had not been for the sempai leaving himself. I completely agree with you on the 2 way street thing. I always say "to get respect you must know how to give it first".
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Post by garage on Oct 10, 2014 8:43:14 GMT
I can only agree with the points made above.
Free sparring is not free at all it is a set of rules to allow some sort of practice. It reminds me of cowboys and indians; "bang" I shot you no you didn't etc. Reality is a lot easier.
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Post by kensei on Oct 10, 2014 11:15:12 GMT
I can only agree with the points made above. Free sparring is not free at all it is a set of rules to allow some sort of practice. It reminds me of cowboys and indians; "bang" I shot you no you didn't etc. Reality is a lot easier. I think that rules are important, but a unbiased observer to say "no he got you" is kind of important if you train with the kind of person that does not admit your technique would have scored a point. However, I dont care about points, my partner is a tool (meaning a implament used to improve...not "you are a tool", which many people could say about me and I would whole heartedly admit to!) and as such I dont really care if they score or admit that I score, Im learning, growing and improving thats my goal, not if a Gyaku zuki would have earned some silly "point" in Kumite. Real Kumite is an exchange of ideas, techniques and philosphy on a very physical level. What irks the HECK out of me is when some Tool (used as in "Christ that guy is a tool") Want to talk and point out their great form and strategy or how they just "got me"...Man, I know you got me...now shut up and DANCE! Point being Kumite is about personal growth and that only happens if you A) work with like minded people or B) ignore the ignorant and push past the Tool that wants to prove something....I actually think the only thing they prove is how big a tool they are.... This post brought to you by the word "Tool"
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Post by garage on Oct 10, 2014 12:26:53 GMT
Actually I was thinking about this whilst waiting to be interviewed by the Police about some confrontation. I was thinking I must change job as there seems to be no respect for age, and I am not getting any quicker and I am forced to take on 20 year olds that have clearly been trained and become misguided as they think resorting to violence is the first and only option. Sparring is helpful to work on things in real time, but if you do not lose the rules quick you are going to get hurt.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Oct 11, 2014 17:43:59 GMT
The situation dictates the rules...reasonable force come to mind. Overstep the mark and you could become a guest of Her Majesty.
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Post by kensei on Oct 12, 2014 15:21:25 GMT
Speaking of rules, I had a great time talking to a junior of mine who is an actor. We dont often get to train together but he came out to class after training for a movie he is doing and we had a great chat. we turned to Thai boxing, Kyokushin and Tae kwon do, which he has trained in. He reminded me of something I said once that made lots of sense...it happens. If you train a specific way with rules that limit your counters you get muscle memory that will cause you to stick to those rules in a real fight. So the "no punching the face" rule in Kyokushin and TKD really hinder you more than help.
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Post by daveb on Oct 12, 2014 17:42:16 GMT
Why is this thread still going when discussions on "the soul of karate" struggle to get participants? I for one would love to hear what a pragmatic JKAer like Kensei makes of Hangetsu kata.
I think this thread should be deleted, mostly due to the childish nature of the opening post. It doesn't make a good impression for visitors.
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 13, 2014 13:47:12 GMT
Yes, the first post in this thread was childish and an obvious trolling attempt (and I nearly deleted it at first read on that basis) but was left on the off chance that it was a real person who may have had a point to make and would come back to defend it (I'll admit it was a slim chance ). From that point members started posting and so it becomes a legitimate thread in my book. The last post however does raise some issues which I will address as best I can. 1)The thread is still going because people are still posting in it (simple really) 2)If threads on "the soul of karate" struggle to get participants then I would suggest it is because nobody is interested enough to participate and we cannot make it so just by wishing. 3)If you want Kensei's (or anybody else's) opinion on something, why not just ask? If the question is interesting enough it'll get a response and may stimulate further debate. 4)..(and this is the kicker for me ) Should we start imposing an editorial layer on an open forum? I personally don't think so but I'm open to feedback from others, admins/mods and membership in general. What do we not allow and who's opinion on what is and isn't "stupid" content has the final say (not mine I'd suggest ). We have a little over 750 registered members but, if we are being honest, the reality is that we probably only have 12 active members (who regularly check the forum) and probably half that who actually post. As for giving a bad impression to visitors, I believe we had 176 "guests" in the last 24 hours, we had 9 "guests" when I started writing this but if you check the I.P.s you'll find that 2 were Google, 2 were Microsoft, 1 was Amazon and the other 4 were a database monitor. I'd be very surprised if we get as many as one real guest a week. Just saying
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Post by kensei on Oct 13, 2014 17:00:28 GMT
ask me specifics and I will answer. When a thread wonders its okay to hang on and go for it! Yes this started off as some guy dissing Andre, and it morphed into a bit of a conversation worth having....I think.
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Post by daveb on Oct 13, 2014 19:21:21 GMT
K, Check the kata thread. The hangetsu topic starts with two very specific questions.
I realize that peoples interests are elsewhere, I just find it disappointing that we post to sling mud and not to talk about karate.
I'm generally finding it across the board, that karate forums lie stagnant as though everybody's decided they have all the answers.
If people's interests are elsewhere, it begs the question, where exactly and why aren't they sharing.
I think when people stop asking questions about their art, especially one like shotokan that sits with such gaping holes in it, it doesn't bode well.
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 13, 2014 20:10:42 GMT
Hi Dave, I understand the disappointment, and the desire for more relevant topics of conversation, I'm just a bit wary are imposing censorship further than the rules of the forum as they stand (which generally works ok but if you are here long enough you'll spot we all have buttons that can be pushed ) I think that part of the problem, and I see it on (nearly) all the forums I visit, is that anyone who's been around a while has already said what they want to say and are done with just rehashing the same old same old (I know that's not a lot of help to anyone asking their questions for the first time). If you add to that all the traditional issues with trying to say anything even remotely contentious whilst having to pussyfoot around in case someone takes offence makes you think "why bother" (which is why typically I don't these days). I certainly don't think I have all the answers but I do at least feel I am asking the right questions as far as my own path is concerned. I still feel totally routed in Shotokan (although not necessarily 1950's JKA style) but many "traditionalists" would probably say I'm not doing shotokan at all any more, it's all about interpretation and "traditionally" asking questions has been actively discouraged. I'm always happy to share my thoughts, just don't feel the need to defend them every time I say something because it doesn't fit someone else's view of "the way". Such is life
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 13, 2014 20:11:44 GMT
See, this is turning into a proper thread after all
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Post by garage on Oct 14, 2014 7:57:24 GMT
If you are disappointed because you do not get an expected outcome, they you really stopping any chance of discussian. It is only any good if it is a quality response. I assume you read the guadian and never read the sun.
I have post a number of posts just to keep things going which, I thought might be of interest some getting zero response, ones that I thought where trivial seemed to get the most replies. That is the joy of interacting wiht other people the unexpected that makes you think.
Most karate forums are populated by people who over react, who you often offend by accident, who then you have profusely apologise to keep the threads going or they will sulk or flame you at every opportunity. They feel these bullying tactics make people agree with them, instead it just leaves people that agree.
In a karate club it is the same except the fall out and visit hospital now and again.
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Post by snorri1 on Oct 14, 2014 12:05:45 GMT
With regard to the amount of regular members, I look in almost every day but I don't log in. On other forums there is a facility of "log in automatically each visit" but if that's available on OSS I'm not aware of it. As far as posting is concerned I have my opinions but nothing original, it seems it's all been said before. The old KU forum covered just about everything.
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 14, 2014 13:38:39 GMT
Hi Dave,
If you look under the box where you fill in your user name there is a check box saying "remember me", that should do it for you.
Cheers
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Post by snorri1 on Oct 15, 2014 8:44:19 GMT
Thanks Bob, I wish I was clever like you.
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Post by D.Ram on Oct 20, 2014 9:36:14 GMT
Oss! Hi David S, could you please clarify what the old KU forum is/was, and whether I can read an archive somewhere? Just FYI for those interested - the chickens website is no longer available - last time I had checked, there was an archived site with all discussions, some of them very good. But the whole site is gone now :-( ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by snorri1 on Oct 21, 2014 22:39:54 GMT
Hi Deepak, KU stands for karate underground a forum that ran for quite a few years but it's closed down now and there's no archive that I know of. Quite a few of the members on here were regulars on there and may know more than me. It was run by a Canadian guy called Mark Groenwald and I learnt so much from that site.
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Post by kensei on Oct 22, 2014 11:22:12 GMT
Mark was a Alberta guy that moved to Japan to open some very popular and successfull English schools. Mark had a lot on his plate and after a while he announced that the KU would close down. It ran for many years but has been dead for more than a few now and the archives were left open for a tad but had to go. This site is the next generation as it were of the site. some others grew out fo the KU as well but the OSS was the site that took over for the KU in many ways. Much more open and we dont often edit or sanction people here, you are free to speak your mind as long as it is not rude or insulting and we respect all those that come here, much like the old KU was. other sites edit and restrict content and wont even let you say curse words....Damn that would put limits on half my vocabulary!
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