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Post by D.Ram on Mar 13, 2015 5:38:39 GMT
50 squats, or 20 burpees - these leave me with sore knees for at least 3-4 days! I'm just in late-30's, and just a Shodan, so I'm beginning to wonder if I should just continue as if nothing's wrong, or starting easing it a bit considering the "longer run"! Advice please? Have you found that just going on gets rid of the pain after a few days, or should I start cutting down?
Thanks!
______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by gazrichards on Mar 13, 2015 20:38:02 GMT
I am a sports injury and rehab professional as well as a 5th Dan shotokan so feel well qualified to answer this question. When you say knee pain/ache that can manifest in a multitude of ways. For instance is it a sharp pain within your kneecap? A dull ache in the general knee area? Or many other things.
Now when I say it COULD be some of these things, it means just that. It could be tendonitis (an inflammation of the tendons in your knee) probably caused by over use. It also could be overly tight and weak muscles in the quadriceps (thigh) that are pulling your kneecap out of alignment and causing pain. It may also be that some of the cartilage in your knee has worn away (known as a miniscus tear) which will obviously cause problems.
If you are doing squats and burpees then you are working the quads. The knee will also self lubricate during movement so you may not feel the pain during training but may well do afterwards.
My recommendation would be to do lots of quad and glute stretches. And I mean lots of very deep stretches (couple of times a day and especially before and after training). Search youtube for piriformis stretches, ITB stretches and quadriceps stretches. Obviously I would recommend going to see a professional. The GP will most likely fob you off (especially if you are in the UK) as it is not withing the remit of the NHS to fix sports injuries. A physio or sports therapist will be able to advise better after checking you out. A treatment should cost between £25 and £35 for 30 mins and most good gyms have someone on site.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 14, 2015 0:41:56 GMT
any advice for arthritis Gareth? Both knees ( fingers, shoulder , neck!) but most limiting is the knees
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Post by gazrichards on Mar 14, 2015 9:11:19 GMT
Have you actually been diagnosed with arthritis and what type? Or is this a self diagnosis (apologies for the tone but you wouldn't believe the amount of self diagnosed sciatica and arthritis I treat and cure in a day!) Whilst there is no treatment to cure arthritis a physical therapist will usually prescribe excercises to relive the symptoms.
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Post by D.Ram on Mar 14, 2015 9:16:40 GMT
Thanks a ton, Gareth, for the very specific guidance! I'm watching the videos now, and will immediately add a stretching routine - during my solo sessions, I currently do not stretch at all (warm-up using rope-jumps, run up good counts on push-ups, pull-ups, squats, etc., and close). ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 14, 2015 16:33:11 GMT
I have been x-rayed and diagnosed Gareth. Its my age unfortunately ( 54 ) I take naproxen for the inflammation and resort to backing that up with painkillers if it becomes difficult. Have found no benefit from cod liver oil, chondritin or any other folksy remedies. Have been exercising quads as far as knees will allow. My left knee is worse than my right to the point I can no longer kick with it.
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Post by gazrichards on Mar 14, 2015 21:21:51 GMT
Unfortunatley sometimes there isn't much you can do to fix these things Jim. I would recommend some low load bearing excercise (swimming or maybe very light cycling) and some massage administered by a sports massage therapist can help with the pain but it looks like it is something you are stuck with. As for karate training with arthritis the silver lining is that you can adapt your training to suit your abilities. I'm a big believer in karate being an individual pursuit in the respect that everybody has their own reasons for trainng and differing body types and sizes will make things change. Instead of kicking, try kneeing or even very low shin kicks (if the leg extension isn't an issue).
Deepak, squats, rope jumps and burpees are notoriously bad for your knees. The weight in squats puts added pressure on the knee and the impact in jumping and running isn't good either. Also from a karate perspective front stance works the front leg quads a lot. And back stance works the rear leg quads. This can pull the knee out of alignment and cause issues. Try strengthening up the other areas in the leg and glutes (inner thigh, outer thigh, hip flexors etc) to support the knee better.
Obviously for both of you going to see a professional will be of considerable benefit. I doubt either of you are local to me and unfortunately I don't have a network of therapists I can recommend so from here on in you are on your own.
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Post by garage on Mar 14, 2015 23:34:16 GMT
Yes let see a professional and become either poorer or really fed up when they say they haven#t got a clue and it is not going to work.
I am not a professional as I do not charge, I am in my late fifties and can still manage squats etc.
Shotokan is great at wrecking alighment, as a lot of people are not loose enough in the hip so the next point to give is the knee. So improving the flexibility in the hip gets the pressure back off the knee.
An invertion table is a way of improving the alignment of the hip knee and back. The cost about the same as a trip to a professional who often do not know they exist.
The are 2 types of arthritis 1 is where the immune system attacks the joint and the other 2 where the joint and become worn.
1 there is a blood test that gives a count. Often keeping a food diary and noting when is worse and getting these foods out of the diet can reduce the count to zero. It takes about 9 months for the effect of removing food from the diet to take affect. The are trigger or pressure points that can massively reduce the pain. They are the same as the points to cause maximum damage.
2 Gloucosamine can help reduce the effects of wear. Trigger points can reduce the pain.
Arnica and witch hazel can reduce inflammation and reduce the pain. It does the same for horses who are too thick to have a placebo effect.
It is really depressing when you go to a professionals and they say you are screwed, you can certainly manage things to make the best of what you have.
I hate to see anyone in pain, so for all of you who think this is folksy crap you will dismiss this but others might not and give it a go. I have had 20 years trying different things and some of them work so do not give up. Everyone is different.
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Post by gazrichards on Mar 15, 2015 12:56:16 GMT
Hmmm. When I say go see a professional I mean a professional sports medicine professional or sports rehab professional. Your standard general practitioner will most likely just be happy to see you limp out and as long as you don't have tumours you are low priority. My job is to heal athletes and their injuries and that is what I charge people to do. Once I have healed the injury I recommemned follow up treatments as maintainence. It's what pays (some of) my mortgage so I take it quite seriously.
I can only suggest that Bert has been seeing the wrong kind of professionals or ones that are not adequate at their job (there are good and bad therapists just like good and bad karate instructors). Find a good therapist and they will ease the pain you are suffering from through trigger point therapy and manually breaking down scar tissue. I can diagnose anyone on an Internet forum but all the symptoms described above come through my clinic every week.
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Post by garage on Mar 15, 2015 16:08:40 GMT
I see it is open season on GP's and OK to right them all off, but not OK to make any comments about sports professionals.
In both cases there are excellent examples of both. I find recommendation is the way to go as some in the phone book should stay there. Some times as I move around in different areas it is not always possible to find anyone suitable.
I have found sock-doc has some good videos, where he shows the trigger points and how to diy.
Clearly I have issues, but not with Mr Richards as I have not met him and know nothing about him, likewise he has not met my children who would not be happy to watch someone limp out even if then didn't have a tumour.
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Post by D.Ram on Mar 16, 2015 4:02:55 GMT
Hi Gareth, This discussion is proving extremely valuable!
You mention exercises like squats being bad for the knees; however, I assume these are staple karate-class exercises! In your class, what leg-strengthening exercises do you do? Squats, squat-kicks, and alternate splits are regulars in my class as well as in my solo sessions.
On the other hand, arm-exercises are currently not causing issues (touchwood!). I regularly count up about 100 push ups, and about a dozen pull-ups. Any harm in continuing such a regimen? ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by gazrichards on Mar 16, 2015 9:50:16 GMT
Well this could open a can of worms.......... In my classes I do very minimal strength training. I am a karate coach and I consider my role to teach karate only. If my students wanted to do weight training, shuttle runs, etc they would go to a class that specialised in those excercises such as the many boot camp sessions gyms offer. I personally do train with some weights, lots of cardio (I used to race bikes at a semi pro level) and lots of body weight excercises. I also like to do a little goju ryu style hojo undo stuff with kettle bells etc. I don't do much strength training in my dojo as I am fed up with seeing instructors do it badly, with the students doing it half arsed because they would rather be sparring or training kata or just seeing a fat old black belt barking orders at the class whilst they do excercises that are unneccesarry and practically impossible. If my class does an excercise, I do it with them.
As for excercises you should be doing, again it is impossible to diagnose any issues you have on an Internet forum but if you are doing a ton of squats you are working your glutes and rector femoris primarily. A tight rec-fem can pull your knee cap upwards and out of the patella grove giving you knee pain. You could probably benefit from doing excercises that will also strengthen your lateral and medial vastus muscles (the inner and outer thigh) which will help provide even support for your knee. Also consider your ITB too. Things like leg raises for your hip flexors, side leg raises for your inner and outer thigh and step ups will all compliment the squats I think. A few of the right yoga postures can do good things too.
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Post by garage on Mar 17, 2015 9:12:06 GMT
Hi Deepak, whilst we have discussed the symptom of the aching knees and how you are doing the exercises in the first. As you get older exercises that are not natural cause problem as the plyability of youth starts to go.
The knee is a hinge and needs to move in that plane of motion. If you are squatting with the knees pointing exstremely outward like a kiba dachi this is not the plane of motion and will make the knee hurt. If your lower back tightens up this then makes the knee compensate. Strengthing the muscles around the knee will allow you to continue but is not addressing the problem which could be just the angle you are squatting at.
The are a number of exercise in Kararte that are going to do you harm. Bunny hops, knee walking, weights on the ends of the feet. As you just copy and no one explains what you are doing it is easy to find a way that is slowly damaging a joint. Add to this that people have different ranges of movement and if you just copy them there are somethings you are only going to look like you are doing because we are not all the same.
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Post by D.Ram on Mar 19, 2015 8:55:11 GMT
Gareth, thanks a ton for all your inputs - already seeing results! ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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