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Post by D.Ram on May 20, 2015 5:20:26 GMT
Some time back, I had posted about Tekki Shodan Embusen, and my net conclusions from the discussion were, (A) Try to stop being so picky about returning to the same spot, and (B) a bit of "adjustment" will fix the issue!
I have continued practicing, and as I progress I am finding more katas where the embusen, though supposedly "designed" to get me back to the same spot, doesn't.
Tekki Nidan: Starting from Shizentai... We step right -> Kosa dachi, kiba dachi, kosa dachi, kiba dachi, Heisoku Dachi. Left -> Kiba dachi, kosa dachi, kiba dachi. Right -> Kosa dachi, kiba dachi. Left -> Kosa dachi, kiba dachi, Shizentai.
Notice that if you cancel out all the right's and lefts, you're left with one right kosa dachi - meaning that by DESIGN, we will land up one step to the right - JUST AS IN TEKKI SHODAN!! Is this a coincidence, or are all Tekki katas supposed to end one step to the right of the start-point?
Hangetsu: After the first 3 steps in Hangetsu dachi, we TURN 180 degrees into another Hangetsu Dachi with a kiai. This moves us, NET, one step to the left.
We then proceed with another 3 forward steps, slide right, then left, then forward - this still leaves us one step to the left. We then turn in kokutsu dachi, step forward, then kick and land in hangetsu dachi - this again moves us half a step to the left! Then we turn around and repeat the kokutsu+step+hangetsu - which moves us further to the left! Then again we face forward, and compensate a bit in the last move - but overall, we are left significantly to the left of where we started!
Enpi: This is more difficult to visualize in the head, but I somehow end up one step to the back, and one step to the left of where I started.
Any thoughts? If we perform katas without "adjustments", are we supposed to finish at the same point by design? Is it a mistake in my performance, or am I missing something?
Oss.
______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by daveb on May 21, 2015 17:00:26 GMT
The kata were never designed to start and end on the same spot. It is a completely fabricated standard, arbitrarily decided upon in order to put more emphasis on performance.
It is not simply that it doesn't matter, it's that it is a false standard.
Karate comes from Okinawa, where bits of the fighting arts of China were mashed up with local methods and all for the purpose of becoming good at fighting. If you are aiming to fight what do you care what spot your training exercise ends on? Hence why traditional Okinawan kata performance finishes wherever.
Karate came to Japan on the back of a period of cultural change. The class system that put warriors above others was thrown out and so violent pastimes like martial arts were becoming unfashionable. Anko Itosu saw that uniform kata practice could be a good discipline tool for young boys as a Japanese version of the marching/drilling he'd seen English boys doing.
Funakoshi came to Japan to promote that kind of karate.
There was still martial intent in the art because the boys would grow up to be soldiers taking the glory of Japan across battlefields of imperial expansion. But then WW2 happened and fighting was once more anathema. The Japanese saw themselves as superior to backwater foreigners (Okinawans) and decided that Karate needed to be remade in their own image. The martial arts skills that were present but underplayed were actively scrubbed out (e.g. the section on kata applications in karatedo kyohan that you've never seen because it was replaced by ippon kumite from kneeling to fit in with other Japanese arts) and the focus of kata was altered to be about performance only.
Realising that there is actually very little you can do to make simple uncomplicated kata into detailed dances that require decades to master, they added other kata from Mabuni so that there was more to learn, and then as time went on bolted more and more tiny technical details on to make the kata more of a physical challenge.
Note the people making such additions probably spent no more than a month learning to do it themselves before foisting it on their juniors. But once they did there was your instant level up, making the master look amazing and leaving the students to tie themselves up to get back to the start.
If you really want to waste your time on such things then do. There are plenty of masters who will take your seminar money to show you how. Far far fewer who can show you how to use Tekki nidan to counter the techniques in Tekki shodan.
Martial arts or dance, the choice is yours.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 21, 2015 22:35:53 GMT
And if you are not? It has to be remembered that, despite the martial origins of karate that the art of "traditional" (i.e. modern Japanese ) karate is NOT about fighting/self defence in any real sense and many people do just study it for the sake of the art itself. Are they "wasting their time" if learning the moves of their kata to the form layed down as "correct" in their chosen art is what they wish to do?
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Post by Bob Davis on May 21, 2015 22:51:49 GMT
Hi Deepak,
Dave is correct when he states that the start and end on the same spot is just an arbitrary (i.e. made up) rule for kata, it has everything to do with performance and nothing to do with function.
As you have worked out, if you perform all the moves of Tekki Nidan, for instance, being consistent with your stances you cannot logically end up where you started. Again, taking Kanazawa as the "standard" for kata performance, if you watch him on Youtube you'll notice that he uses an excessively long final kiba dachi (compared to his other stances through the kata) to land his foot in the correct position to end where he started.
If you wish to be able to do the same you need to look for these "adjustments" (or cheats really) in order to be able to land in the correct spot, so it depends on whether this is important to you.
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Post by daveb on May 22, 2015 7:07:47 GMT
Hence the Last line of my post: "Martial art or dance, the choice is yours." While we can practice to arbitrary standards like landing on the spot we started on, practicing to our solo exercises to martial standards is just as exacting, if not more so. By keeping application in mind when performing kata, every stance, step and hand position has meaning. Every challenging movement once mastered presents a logical path of advancement, a way to make it tougher more effective training and a new level of challenge because there is a goal in mind. Take the jump in hiean Godan: symbolic of throwing an opponent, but also training your leg strength to make that throw happen. Can you do the jump? Then jump higher. Got to your limit? Squat first and tuck in the air. Take the throw in the middle of Hiean shodan: the turn is transitioned into in a normal rhythm, but to take someone off balance you are better off capitalising on speed. Turn the fast 1-2 age uke rhythm into a 1-2-3 where 3 encompasses the turn into low block. Replacing made up rules with real understanding of combat only enhances the art side of an MA.
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Post by D.Ram on May 23, 2015 4:39:26 GMT
Thanks, Bob for reiterating my belief that "adjustments" are the only way to get several katas to end where they started!
Thanks Dave, for pointing to far more interesting kata-areas - Nidan counters Shodan? Never thought of that so far! Also fully agree about the jump - if, as a Shodan, I capture a video of myself doing the H5 jump, or for that matter the Enpi jump, I can easily see how clumsy it is! And as you rightly pointed out, just perfecting and improving on these difficult steps is a challenge in itself!
Oss. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by daveb on May 23, 2015 14:04:10 GMT
If you keep application in mind then every movement presents opportunities to master unique timing and transitions as well as simple physical training.
You mentioned that the Godan jump you used to do it clumsily. As someone who trains with martial intent it is often assumed that I think more sloppy technique is OK because fighting is messy in real life.
The fact is though that solo training is done in order to practice an ideal. The jump in Godan trains leg strength for a throw but the landing trains balance training against the inevitable downward force of a falling adversary. In other words learning to land neatly helps you stay on your feet.
Good form on strikes ensures maximum power transfer with good balance and no over extension. In blocking it ensures that we don't loose balance when we receive force.
In hiean nidan when you kick/punch to the back and then shuto in the opposite direction you should pause before stepping to allow the opponent to start an attack that you will cut off with a low kick as you transition into the next shuto.
Physical, tactical and technical training rolled into one. That is kata, and getting c all these factors working together into a smooth consistent performance that you then repeat to exhaustion, that is the real challenge and discipline of martial art.
But you can't do it without an understanding of the kata. The the applications above (including the Tekki stuff) are mine and not absolutes. If your teacher doesn't teach applications for the kata then you will have to research your own.
Also all this stuff is supported by fighting. If your form is martialy relevant fighting is how you test it. If you are over-extending when you do kata it will show in your fighting and if you're sparring is done to develop skills with input from the teacher this should be spotted and beaten out of you. Thus form and fighting feed each other in a feedback loop.
How and why you train is your choice, but it is my firm belief that maintaining martial relevance enhances all paths whatever the goal.
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Post by Bob Davis on May 23, 2015 15:02:58 GMT
Ditto
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