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Post by Jakub Cižek on Jun 24, 2016 16:20:00 GMT
I have a question, and I don't feel I can bring that subject in my dojo. I live in a small city in europe, and there is only one karate dojo in town.
However, I feel really unconfortable and frustrated. Each of the students have a plaque with his/her name on it, and they are placed side by side on the wall to indicate hierarchy, grade, senpai/hokai relation, whatever.
When I arrived the dojo, as a 2dn Dan, the Sensei kept my plaque in the kohai position to three guys who where 2nd dan too, and I'm ok with that.
Later, I passed to the 3rd dan, at the same time that many colored belts achieved greater ranks (greens, yellows, purples...). The Sensei rearranged all the plaques for everyone who changed ranks, except for mine. So I remained "kohai" for people who were 2dn dan. Ok, perhaps he didn't want to hurt the feelings of their old time students? Let's move on...
Recently, I achieved the 4th dan, and a some other people in the dojo achieved the 3rd. And what the Sensei did? Rearranjed everything, and now moved my plaque AFTER those who achived the 3rd dans, and still after those same three guys who are 2nd dan. Now you'll ask: "is that only with you?". And, yes, it's only with me.
Seriously, guys. I want to express myself here honestly. I searched for that grade, I wanted it. I trained hard, and I gave those guys who faced me in the jiu kumite a hard time. But this is frustrating, to say the least. I feel like my efforts have added nothing to myself or to the dojo.
What's your opinion on it? Am I being greedy or selfish? Does this make any sense?
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 24, 2016 19:07:47 GMT
Please read my post on your introduction before posting further on the subject.
However (and apologies if this sounds harsh) my initial reaction would be that if you have been at your current dojo from 2nd Dan through 3rd Dan and then 4th then you have been there for at least 7 years, if you haven't sorted it out there to your satisfaction in that time you certainly won't do it here and if you are not accepted there after that time then it's obviously not going to happen.
If you feel your efforts are for nothing then why bother? If you are not self sufficient in your training by 4th Dan then you never will be. If all you are chasing is a grade recognition and a place in the hierarchy then to what end?
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Post by Jakub Cižek on Jun 24, 2016 19:50:48 GMT
Thanks for replying, dude. I put on my real name, I'll put a picture when I can. Sorry I didn't read the rules, It's just that I needed to write that to someone, and I quite can't explain this to my non-karate friends.
I was kind of expecting that answer, which, by the way, does not mean that I despise it.
Yeah, I've been there for 9 years. Well, I want to avoid judgment, I want to understand. Would it be some senpai-kohai rule that I don't understand?
I care about chasing a place in hierarchy, I think it increases some sense of responsability in me, and achieving dans means that I'm growing as a karateka (I mean, I was recognized by someone else, more experienced than me, of that). I grew that will inside me, since I begun, because I always wanted to train among the greates in the dojo. Nonsense ambition? I agree.
Most people don't care about ranks, which I understand. I don't mistreat anyone for that cause. I actually think newbies are fascinating, and those are the guys we should take more care of. Stray cats like me are expected to have a thicker skin and overgo their issues on their own journey.
Yeah, dude, I'm frustrated. Some people there don't accept me, I know. Specially those black belts that were there before. I always thought that it would go over time, but, yeah, it's been 9 years. I relate better to the younger.
Nothing changes in the training routine because of that, I know. I still will be friends with friends.
Why the heck did the sensei invite me to take the exam anyway?
Ok, so you got the point that it's somewhat weird, right?
I just should move somewhere else? Well, let me tell you, recently I read a book called "non violent communication" and it changed my life. The book says that expressions like "you should" or "I should have" doens't make our lifes better, because it just adds guilt and shame. Life would be better if we get in touch with our feelings and needs.
Thanks again.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jun 26, 2016 15:58:46 GMT
Hi Jakub, I understand your frustration and the need to have someone to talk to and obviously you don't have anyone within your group that you feel able to discuss this with. By all means vent your frustration here as long as you are aware that we can't fix this for you It doesn't sound like a "sempai/kohai" thing, unless there is a massive disparity in age (and to be fair, most karate groups don't really understand the sempai/kohai relationship anyway and just seem to use it as a senior/junior thing in their mock Japanese culture) There's nothing wrong with wanting to improve in your karate and if the extra Dan grade is actually a measure of that, rather than just of having hung around long enough to qualify, then fine. BTW grades do mean something to many karate-ka but I'm afraid I'm one of the cynical few who are not bothered Silly question but have you actually just talked to your sensei, explained your feelings and asked the reason why?
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Post by Jakub Cižek on Jun 27, 2016 15:30:33 GMT
Silly question but have you actually just talked to your sensei, explained your feelings and asked the reason why? Thanks for the comprehension, I mean it. Silly question, but necessary. Necessary attitude, which wasn't taken. I plan to talk to him, but I'm still building the speech. If I just express my feelings, I fear to end up with an answer like “ deal with it” or some evasive like “ there are other people in situation similar to yours, and I’m thinking about what to do” (because there are other people in similar situations). For example, there is a guy, who’s like, 50-year-old, who claims to be a 4th dan for 14 years. He doesn’t even have a plaque with his name. So, I plan to come with a request. But what would my request be? Move my plaque? Perhaps that would be done, but with hard feelings, which I don’t want. Can I just request “having my efforts recognized”? How would that be? Perhaps I’m here just to learn to “deal with it” anyway, although I believe it’s fair that I be heard. Or… I would hold on to some objective criteria. I would to come to him and talk about mine and other people in strange situations, and say that it would be fairer for everyone if he organized everything on the cold hard rule. If he wants to make changes in the hierarchy, that it should be put clearly, for example, this guy is older, but he’ll stay behind because he arrived last in the dojo. And, if he wants to keep me behind, his reasons would better if clear. I know this subject is taboo. I feel like a spoilt kid, but having my name after people who arrived after me in the dojo, and are less ranked, that was too much to take.
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Post by Jakub Cižek on Jun 27, 2016 21:07:57 GMT
Information on senpai-kohai relationship.
Ok, living and learning. I just found some information on the web about this senpai-kohai mess.
I didn’t know that, but senpai means “colleague that started before me” and so kohai means “colleague that started after me”. (By the way, Sensei means “were born before”, and, of course, is used as a sign of respect).
So, If a guy started training in 1932, but is 5th kyu, and you have started training in 1985 and you are 5th dan, that means he is your senpai. End of the discussion. For example, this poor guy gets sick everytime before the exam so he never takes it, and never earns ranks, and he stayed away from karate for 20 years. He started before you, he is your Senpai.
HOWEVER, you still would sit in the senior position, since ranks are also meant for organizing the “classroom”.
So, senpai-kohai is not exactly related to rank.
In Japan, to avoid this kind of situation, the kohai only takes an exam after all his senpais have taken it.
So, what happens in the west (here) is an unforeseen situation according to the Japanese rule. For example, you’ve been training for 20 years and move to another city and join the local dojo. Are you senpai to those who began 10 years ago in that particular dojo?
However, the rule seems clear that you should sit in the senior position.
What a (solutionless) problem.
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Post by D.Ram on Jul 1, 2016 3:31:19 GMT
Things in any Karate sphere don't change easily, this is my experience :-) My thought - expand your horizons - read more books, watch more movies - not just pertaining to your specific style, but outside it too. If possible, attend seminars. This will not change much at your Dojo, but may make your issue feel smaller, in the bigger picture! All the best, Oss. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by Jakub Cižek on Jul 1, 2016 13:39:14 GMT
Things in any Karate sphere don't change easily, this is my experience :-) My thought - expand your horizons - read more books, watch more movies - not just pertaining to your specific style, but outside it too. If possible, attend seminars. This will not change much at your Dojo, but may make your issue feel smaller, in the bigger picture! All the best, Oss. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle Yeah, man, that would be good. Any advice or suggestions?
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Post by D.Ram on Jul 7, 2016 11:10:45 GMT
Movies/videos are not my area of expertise. Books there are several gems - A) Waking Dragons by Goran Powell; B) Moving Zen by C.W.Nicol; C) Bunkai Jutsu by Iain Abernethy; D) The Fighter's Body by Christensen/Demeere; E) Dead or Alive by Geoff Thomson. The above are books I liked across the spectrum of martial-arts books - from fitness to street-readiness to philosophy :-). And yes, they're all available in Kindle editions. Oss. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by Jakub Cižek on Jul 7, 2016 14:15:13 GMT
Movies/videos are not my area of expertise. Books there are several gems - A) Waking Dragons by Goran Powell; B) Moving Zen by C.W.Nicol; C) Bunkai Jutsu by Iain Abernethy; D) The Fighter's Body by Christensen/Demeere; E) Dead or Alive by Geoff Thomson. The above are books I liked across the spectrum of martial-arts books - from fitness to street-readiness to philosophy :-). And yes, they're all available in Kindle editions. Oss. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle Available in Kindle editions: that's what I'm talking about! Thanks a lot, I'll check that out.
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Post by garage on Jul 16, 2016 7:30:46 GMT
Hi Jakub,
It seems that most people wish to avoid the obvious, you are not Japanese nor is the person that runs your club. Perhaps they are just a nasty controlling person who just wants to keep you in your place. I notice no respect is given to my age if I am from outside Japan that is called racism. They are plenty of exploitive people who get in senior positions in some karate organisations and have ended up in prison.
Set up your own organisation, then what you going to do? the same as you were treated or go a new way. This is giving you a lifetime of anger, being submissive to someone who has issues. Feet of clay fragile egos is the story of karate.
It is your life, you are not in a religion, so karate should not control your life, nor should an individual. They do not want to help you so what do they want?
Best wishes
Bert
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