|
Post by genkaimade on Jan 8, 2011 10:12:07 GMT
When someone knocked at my door at about 19h30 not that long ago, I was confused as to who it might be. Guess who it was?
"Hi I'm Emanuel from GKR, would you be interested in learning karate?"
I had half a mind to highlight all the problems that GKR cause/have fundamentally, but instead I politely told him that I was already a member of the Shotokan Karate club that runs in the school a few hundred metres from here, wasn't interested, and wished him a good night.
On to the point of this thread though: ignoring the fact that it was GKR who came knocking, what do you think of the idea of having karate "sold" to you by a door to door salesman? Personally, I think that it is just not right - when supposed "advertising" takes that sort of a stance, it just illustrates how focused the given advertiser on making money, and not good karate. What do you all think?
Alex
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 8, 2011 13:09:21 GMT
vigorously advertising Good Quality Karate would be perfectly acceptable to me - making money at it is also perfectly acceptable to me - professional instructors have to eat etc
it isn't the advertising process that is the problem imho - tis the quality of what is being sold.
|
|
|
Post by genkaimade on Jan 8, 2011 13:50:23 GMT
vigorously advertising Good Quality Karate would be perfectly acceptable to me - making money at it is also perfectly acceptable to me - professional instructors have to eat etc it isn't the advertising process that is the problem imho - tis the quality of what is being sold. I suppose that the quality is what really makes the difference... But then again, I think good quality karate should really be able to sell itself without needing people knocking at every door in the surrounding area.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 8, 2011 15:12:03 GMT
if good quality karate sells itself why are so many people going to Mcdojo's Alex?
People don't know what is good quality at first - would you know what is the best quality aerobatic flying instruction in the UK - or the best quality decal printing equipment for example?
|
|
|
Post by stevie on Jan 8, 2011 15:37:09 GMT
vigorously advertising Good Quality Karate would be perfectly acceptable to me - making money at it is also perfectly acceptable to me - professional instructors have to eat etc it isn't the advertising process that is the problem imho - tis the quality of what is being sold. so I suppose that the quality is what really makes the difference... But then again, I think good quality karate should really be able to sell itself without needing people knocking at every door in the surrounding area. does that mean we shouldnt put flyers through doors or tell friends and workmates in hope of pointing someone in the right direction??
|
|
|
Post by genkaimade on Jan 8, 2011 15:47:08 GMT
I suppose I haven't really thought this through... In hindsight, I was probably just having a bash at GKR more than anything else :/
I think that what I think now, having thought about it a little more, is that advertising in terms of flyers, word of mouth, newspaper ads etc is fine, but I think door to door selling of it is just a step too far... In my case for example, I saw "Emanuel" as a JW and was ready to ignore him before I even knew what he was really "selling"; I most certainly wouldn't want a good karate school to be seen as pushy as JWs come across...
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 8, 2011 16:11:08 GMT
don't tar everyone with the sales skills of the man you came across Alex - you for example are a fine example of a young man gaining a great deal from trad karate - you speak eloquently of it here - if your seniors asked you to help them with a door to door advertising campaign would you decline or step up?
|
|
|
Post by genkaimade on Jan 8, 2011 17:54:08 GMT
don't tar everyone with the sales skills of the man you came across Alex - you for example are a fine example of a young man gaining a great deal from trad karate - you speak eloquently of it here - if your seniors asked you to help them with a door to door advertising campaign would you decline or step up? Well I suppose I'd step up... Yup, I think I understand what you're getting at/I probably should have understood from the situation: as long as the real deal is what is being sold, even door to door is fine. But if something lacklustre, ineffective etc etc is the product, cough*GKR*cough, well that is really the only problem
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 8, 2011 18:26:13 GMT
put it this way Alex - this door to door thing IS working for the Mcdojo's I have seen evidence of this so I am sure it would also work for trad Dojo - but there are other ways to get to the public directly -
for example book a stall at a fete or other event and meet the public and give them good written info about your club and answer any questions they may have - i have used this approach v successfully over the years - also giving talks at schools and other groups is workable.
we MUST get out there. just moaning that the Mcdojos are doing it is reactive and not proactive IMHO
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 8, 2011 19:45:40 GMT
Steve is spot on here about advertising etc. we should be proud of our product and promote it vigorously. That way Joe public will come to understand what constitutes good ma and what is crap! we have shamelessly promoted our classes in supermarkets and local fetes, schools and colleges and will continue to do so.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 8, 2011 20:24:44 GMT
Mixed feelings on this one. I really don`t like solicitation. Door to door or especially on my telephone. When, I want something I`ll find it. I don`t like being pushed!!! Osu Paul B
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 8, 2011 20:27:42 GMT
and that's my point Paul - choose a process that you like - and make it work for you! although those sponsored naked runs in the mountains that you do might be hard to promote worldwide paul
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 8, 2011 23:01:34 GMT
At one with nature `Au Natural`. Kind of catchy though don`t you think... Paul B
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 9, 2011 2:04:13 GMT
I dont have mixed feelings about this, much like some of the others here I dont like Door to door sales, while flyers and posters are fine and even putting together Demos, Door to Door salesmen are just low class in my mind.
|
|
|
Post by fleur on Jan 11, 2011 9:12:15 GMT
If it wasn't for door to door - many people would never get the opportunity to experience karate. While you guys all sit back saying "if I want something, I go and get it" well that's all good for you cos you actually know what you want. There are many people out there that don't even realise what it out there and unless someone knocked on their door and talked about it, introduced the idea, they would still be sitting on the couch. Ok - you might not like it and you might not like whose doing it. But think about all those people out there, that if it wasnt for a knock on the door would never come to know the magic of karate. And sure they may begin there karate journey in a McDojo - but hey - how many do you and I know soon figure that out and move on - and ah ha - the journey really begins!
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 11, 2011 15:34:47 GMT
If it wasn't for door to door - many people would never get the opportunity to experience karate. Not true, we send out fliers we do a tone of marketing, much like other businesses, some guy knocking at my door pumping me to join a Kratty club, much like a religious door to door guy is not needed! If someone does not read my fliers, my yellow pages, my web site, my new paper ads, my posters...I am still not going door to door to get them to join! its like the old joke...Guy living in a flood area starts to see the flood water come up, its up to his ankles and a guy in a truck comes and says ."Hey lets go", the guys says" Nah, God will save me". Water is up to his waste...boat comes along and say "hey lets go", But the guy says "Nah, god will save me". He is sitting on his roof and the water is up to his knees, Hellecopter comes and say "hey lets go, we will save you", guy says "Nah, god will save me"...... Guy drowns...goes to heaven and says "God...why did you not save me"....God say "For the love of....me...I sent a guy in a truck, a guy in a boat and a guy in a bloody hellecopter...what else did you want me to do"? The fact is that we do enough to draw people to our clubs, more than we used to have to do. if it takes going door to door to get the point across....I sent fliers, I sent posters, Web ads, News Ads, TV Ads.....
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 11, 2011 15:36:44 GMT
post=1568 time=1294737135] And sure they may begin there karate journey in a McDojo - but hey - how many do you and I know soon figure that out and move on - and ah ha - the journey really begins![/quote]
The fact is that we lose more students when they go to McDojos and get burned than you could think of. I know of a hand full of students that joined and said they were not going to go back to a martial art because the local McDojo mistreated them or taught them crap and they were burned.
Letting them go to a poor quality instructor/Dojo and thinking it is okay is wrong. They will get burned and never want to train in martial arts again....they will go to a gym or take up jogging before they actually stap on a Dogi again!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 11, 2011 19:22:47 GMT
post=1568 time=1294737135] And sure they may begin there karate journey in a McDojo - but hey - how many do you and I know soon figure that out and move on - and ah ha - the journey really begins! The fact is that we lose more students when they go to McDojos and get burned than you could think of. I know of a hand full of students that joined and said they were not going to go back to a martial art because the local McDojo mistreated them or taught them crap and they were burned. Letting them go to a poor quality instructor/Dojo and thinking it is okay is wrong. They will get burned and never want to train in martial arts again....they will go to a gym or take up jogging before they actually stap on a Dogi again![/quote] Kensei - you are missing the point - the McDojo's are getting our potential students BECAUSE they go door to door. OK if you do not wish to do that = absolutely fine BUT if other Dojo Seniors think Sod this I better get out there and go door to door and show people the quality we can provide. The fact is - fliers have always been productive for my clubs BUT I throw dozens of fliers away without even glancing at them, I cannot remember the last time i used Yellow Pages, Websites - yes a great way to advertise. Posters yes OK but if it takes getting out there and hard selling it I think that is a valid advertising method - it works for the McDojos and the only two salesmen from a McDojo I have ever met were so thick I blinded them with Science by asking fundamental questions. They both fled saying 'we don't think Karate would be your cup of tea Sir ;D ;D ;D ;D I have to largely agree with Fleur but I do agree with you that we lose more thru dissatisfaction with McDojos then we gain through them looking for something better - once disgruntled they are generally lost to us.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 11, 2011 19:55:50 GMT
Kensei - you are missing the point - the McDojo's are getting our potential students BECAUSE they go door to door. OK if you do not wish to do that = absolutely fine BUT if other Dojo Seniors think Sod this I better get out there and go door to door and show people the quality we can provide. The fact is - fliers have always been productive for my clubs BUT I throw dozens of fliers away without even glancing at them, I cannot remember the last time i used Yellow Pages, Websites - yes a great way to advertise. Posters yes OK but if it takes getting out there and hard selling it I think that is a valid advertising method - it works for the McDojos and the only two salesmen from a McDojo I have ever met were so thick I blinded them with Science by asking fundamental questions. They both fled saying 'we don't think Karate would be your cup of tea Sir ;D ;D ;D ;D I have to largely agree with Fleur but I do agree with you that we lose more thru dissatisfaction with McDojos then we gain through them looking for something better - once disgruntled they are generally lost to us. I actually think that door to door stuff is tacky, and I dont think I would ever use it. However, if the point comes that it is the only way to handle the McDojos and GKR crap then I will slog off and go door to door. IN Canada we dont have alot of Door to door dojo salesmen...yet. I have had two in my whole life, and much like you I asked a few questions and they scurried away like roaches!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 11, 2011 20:10:42 GMT
Knowing how vast rural canada is I can see the probs but we have similar here as i am in a rural area after growing up in a very industrialised Northern Town. When i first moved here a student ask me was jogging good for Karate? I was trying to explain that it is but tis better to do 'broken rythm Jogging. to assist him I said 'what i do is use Street lighting Lamp posts. Jog at a steady paced for three LP's and then sprint to the next then Jog steadily for three more and then sprint to the next and so on until you have done at least 6 sprints' He said 'But Sensei there is only one Lamp post in our village and the next is three miles away in the next village and they only have one and it goes on like that for miles!' Poor lad would have had to do about 30 miles to get half a dozen srints in = silly me eh?
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 11, 2011 20:47:35 GMT
Knowing how vast rural canada is I can see the probs but we have similar here as i am in a rural area after growing up in a very industrialised Northern Town. When i first moved here a student ask me was jogging good for Karate? I was trying to explain that it is but tis better to do 'broken rythm Jogging. to assist him I said 'what i do is use Street lighting Lamp posts. Jog at a steady paced for three LP's and then sprint to the next then Jog steadily for three more and then sprint to the next and so on until you have done at least 6 sprints' He said 'But Sensei there is only one Lamp post in our village and the next is three miles away in the next village and they only have one and it goes on like that for miles!' Poor lad would have had to do about 30 miles to get half a dozen srints in = silly me eh? Mental note..do not read steves reply posts whilst drinking coffee! Interval running is a great exercise, One I use alot. However, Door to door salemen in Winnipeg need not worry about the vast expanse of open land between homes. the city itself is as packed close as any in the US....just not as large! I guess I have seen that their is merrit in going door to door....it still seems a bit tacky to me however!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 11, 2011 21:44:22 GMT
I know mate but maybe paul bedard will lend you that powder blue tux i hear he owns HAHA!
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 11, 2011 22:28:52 GMT
I know mate but maybe paul bedard will lend you that powder blue tux i hear he owns HAHA! It will go well with my light blue Yarmulke!
|
|
|
Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 12, 2011 1:23:14 GMT
Hey, how did I get involved? FYI, the suit was a rental, it also had a 28" waist ( was I skinny or what? ). So it wouldn`t fit most of us, I`m sure.. Still haven`t been convinced selling door to door is a good thing. I can see handing out flyers, even door to door, but actually knocking on the door & selling. Not likely!!! Paul B
|
|
|
Post by tomobrien on Jan 12, 2011 3:14:45 GMT
Sometimes, when we need fresh meat, we go to the guys door & drag him to the dojo. But they never come back I always offer the first lesson for free. That way the person sees, first hand, if he likes it or not. Usually it is 'or not'. The Ronin Martial Arts club is a small, humble, garage dojo. We never have more than 6 or 7 people. We can't fit more than that safely. Thanks, Tom
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 12, 2011 4:01:02 GMT
only 6 or 7 students and how many trophies Tom - respect sir respect. the ability to give personal attention is paying of sir.
|
|
|
Post by fleur on Jan 12, 2011 4:13:14 GMT
Hmmm...funning how people see things from different perspectives. I had a 'no junk mail' on my last letter box cos I cant stand loads of tacky flyers and when I moved house I got a PO box so I didn't have to deal with it. If someone has the balls to go out and knock on doors, I think good on them. Talking to someone face to face is a 100% more friendly than any other way of marketing if you ask me. I only wish someone had knocked on my door 25 years ago, instead of accidently stumbling across it 3 years ago. And it took someone talking to me to reassure me that I could do it, it's not just for youngsters, any level of fitness can start, yes a middle aged mum can do it. Otherwise there is no way in this whole wide world I would have started - no matter how many flyers and adds in the paper there were. And by the way - there were none of those either. It's just a matter of how you view it.
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 12, 2011 6:39:57 GMT
Hmmm...funning how people see things from different perspectives. I had a 'no junk mail' on my last letter box cos I cant stand loads of tacky flyers and when I moved house I got a PO box so I didn't have to deal with it. If someone has the balls to go out and knock on doors, I think good on them. Talking to someone face to face is a 100% more friendly than any other way of marketing if you ask me. I only wish someone had knocked on my door 25 years ago, instead of accidently stumbling across it 3 years ago. And it took someone talking to me to reassure me that I could do it, it's not just for youngsters, any level of fitness can start, yes a middle aged mum can do it. Otherwise there is no way in this whole wide world I would have started - no matter how many flyers and adds in the paper there were. And by the way - there were none of those either. It's just a matter of how you view it. Fleur - if you had started 25 yrs ago it woulda been no good - you can't train well in Diapers Come on Lads was I smooth there or what LOL Seriously I agree with you Fleur. Why not go out and face to face sell this marvellous thing we have. We may get some people a bit curt BUT if we bring in new students that may have gone GKR then tis worth it Neh?
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Jan 12, 2011 13:17:20 GMT
Fleur - if you had started 25 yrs ago it woulda been no good - you can't train well in Diapers Come on Lads was I smooth there or what LOL Seriously I agree with you Fleur. Why not go out and face to face sell this marvellous thing we have. We may get some people a bit curt BUT if we bring in new students that may have gone GKR then tis worth it Neh? Steve you old smoothy! seriously, I researched the GKR when they first hit the news on the forum about two to three years ago and seriously thoulght "wont last...anyone can see through them..." Damn I hate it when I dont get it right! When I learned about the fake claims and rank and then saw the cheif instructor sparring...well I knew how bad that style and instructors were. Then the lay out of the pyramid scheme...well I saw it is actually worse than a McDojo...at least in a McDojo they try and teach good martial arts...they might fail but somewere along the road they had it right...just went off roading as it were. GKR is a dangerous little money grab for one guy that does not care if his students get good training or not, the guy is a fake and liar to his students. Besides if you want a mix of "Shotokan" and "Goju" styles (not the actual styles but the root styles) then go to Shito ryu, they are way better and wont be creating "Sensei's" that only have six months training on the hands! What a sad sad joke they are. Door to Door Hocking of their crappy style is just the start of what is wrong with that group! The previous written is just my personal opinion...one that I do not applogize for and will say to whom ever will listen!
|
|
|
Post by fujicolt on Jan 13, 2011 15:36:55 GMT
We are all listening James and that's the beauty of this site - we all - AGREE TO DISAGREE AGREEABLY LETS HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FOR yOKOTA sENSEI AND DON'T FORGET - DON'T POST THEM = pm THEM TO ME pLEASE dAMN CAPS LOCK aRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|