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Post by fujicolt on Mar 24, 2011 21:59:12 GMT
I do not think i am alone when I state that I have concerns about what I see developing in the world of Karate. I would be being completely hypocritical if I blamed Tournaments as, I personally competed for a period of over 20 yrs. I would also be wrong to state there are NO good Teachers about as there are more now than ever. but..... I think i may be getting closer to the problem when, with Kata, EVEN JAPAN now present kata as a prearranged Dance, timed to impress a crowd, not to DO THE KATA. It is simply a show that to be honest (and I'll gladly bet on this if someone matches me in financing a trial!) a good dance troupe would facsimile in a few short weeks. and be physically ably but have no idea. look here to see what i mean = very athletically accomplished but to wrong and stunted. wn.com/Karate_World_Championships
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Post by kensei on Mar 25, 2011 1:41:36 GMT
When I watch training and competition like this I think two things...why dont they punch to the face...and...why are their kids so sloppy? Hey they are tough, not doubt, but I would much rather win a fight with out getting beat up and with a quick punch to the face than with 90 punches to the body and a barage of loose and sloppy kicks. In their hay day the JKA instructors would pin point a punch or kick and end the fight.
Sorry, but the only thing they have an advantage in is training to hit. If we did it in our style it would be way to dangerous. Hell our semi contact is way to damaging to do in this style.
Sorry, but Kata training is essential and the lessons you take from them should be applied, I have seen their Kata, they look kind of like us but weaker stances ext, but they do show punches to the face. Me thinks someone missed the point!
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Post by guyakuzuki on Mar 26, 2011 6:51:22 GMT
When I watch training and competition like this I think two things...why dont they punch to the face...and...why are their kids so sloppy? Hey they are tough, not doubt, but I would much rather win a fight with out getting beat up and with a quick punch to the face than with 90 punches to the body and a barage of loose and sloppy kicks. In their hay day the JKA instructors would pin point a punch or kick and end the fight. Sorry, but the only thing they have an advantage in is training to hit. If we did it in our style it would be way to dangerous. Hell our semi contact is way to damaging to do in this style. Sorry, but Kata training is essential and the lessons you take from them should be applied, I have seen their Kata, they look kind of like us but weaker stances ext, but they do show punches to the face. Me thinks someone missed the point! Actually in KK a part of training is "jissen" kumite were punches to the face(with gloves)are allowed.In the early days of KK competitions punches were allowed to the face but as it was getting too bloody (people getting seriously hurt)so they forbid jodan punches... I just see it as another style of karate practised in a different way.It "may" look sloppy but they have great fighters who have an incredible fighting spirit.
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Post by kensei on Mar 26, 2011 22:15:46 GMT
I just see it as another style of karate practised in a different way.It "may" look sloppy but they have great fighters who have an incredible fighting spirit. the thing is they would be great fighters no matter what style, its the fact that they dont let them throw Jodan punches that makes the style itself weak, as well as not being a real style for self defense. Granted I would not want to eat a kick from one of them, but the trueth is any boxer would be able to land a good shot and KO the guy.
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Post by kensei on Mar 27, 2011 1:10:27 GMT
a very wise man told me that you fight how you train, I did not get what he was saying till I bounced at a bar! I was never in a tone of fights as a kid, more simple scuffles, but I have seen way to many TKD and KK guys eat fists and get taken out becasue of the way they train! Are they tough...hell yes...but they fight how they train. Also, lets not get into the dance troupe, I am so on your side with that comment. When I was a kid my sister was a dancer and she could pick up Kata in one view. I HATE HER!
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Post by kensei on Mar 29, 2011 12:26:44 GMT
I taught last night for one of my seniors, two classes...one beginners and one all brown belts. The beginners class (white to purple belt) was fun. They dont have bad habits yet, just poor form. They worked hard and they pushed through everything I was throwing at them. yah, a few had to take a knee once and a while but they were full steem ahead teh whole time! The seniors class was not as much fun...for any of us. I noticed they were doing weird, flashy moves to counter attack, things I would never say are a good idea. And most of them were executed poorly. I told them to go back to basics, throw reverse punches and not some goofy ridge hand from to damn far away or stick their butts out. I pushed them hard for an hour and at the end they were all sucking wind. Point being that Karate is getting to flashy and showy, nothing wrong with a basic block and reverse punch, and when done well that is al you need. But I see these fancy "goofy" counters and think..."have they never had to defend themselves.....even in a pillow fight"? If you want to do advanced moves, at the least make sure your basics are firm!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 5, 2011 20:10:45 GMT
James, just as a point of conversation - would you not agree that sometimes it is the class that leaves your MIND exhausted and needing to 'Take a knee' are the better classes as anyone can do a drill them to exhaustion class? and they can do such physical build better fitness classes without an instructor!?
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Post by kensei on Apr 6, 2011 13:45:35 GMT
James, just as a point of conversation - would you not agree that sometimes it is the class that leaves your MIND exhausted and needing to 'Take a knee' are the better classes as anyone can do a drill them to exhaustion class? and they can do such physical build better fitness classes without an instructor!? I would totally Agree. I like both! ;D The thing is not that I drove them into the ground, something that got me the nick name "Drill Sgt." (and to think...I was a 2nd Lt.!) I love giving classes were we work on things that leave me and the students feeling like they just mentally ran a marathon, but I also think to many classes like that makes the students feel 1) they are just never going to "Get it" and 2) they get sloppy when they dont get good work outs that drive them. Its a mix that is needed. If I "lecture" to much and "tickle their brain" with ideas but not push them physically...they tend to not be able to apply all those neet thigns we teach. Besides, Karate is a physical art at its root, I feel that to much intellectual Karate and not enough good practice takes away instead of giving to the class. But they are important! My issue with the seniors class was their need to "POORLY" throw techniques that were "Advanced" and do it so poorly! Not enough physical and to darn much mental I fear!
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 6, 2011 21:06:32 GMT
James, just as a point of conversation - would you not agree that sometimes it is the class that leaves your MIND exhausted and needing to 'Take a knee' are the better classes as anyone can do a drill them to exhaustion class? and they can do such physical build better fitness classes without an instructor!? I would totally Agree. I like both! ;D The thing is not that I drove them into the ground, something that got me the nick name "Drill Sgt." (and to think...I was a 2nd Lt.!) I love giving classes were we work on things that leave me and the students feeling like they just mentally ran a marathon, but I also think to many classes like that makes the students feel 1) they are just never going to "Get it" and 2) they get sloppy when they dont get good work outs that drive them. Its a mix that is needed. If I "lecture" to much and "tickle their brain" with ideas but not push them physically...they tend to not be able to apply all those neet thigns we teach. Besides, Karate is a physical art at its root, I feel that to much intellectual Karate and not enough good practice takes away instead of giving to the class. But they are important! My issue with the seniors class was their need to "POORLY" throw techniques that were "Advanced" and do it so poorly! Not enough physical and to darn much mental I fear! VERY INTERESTING answer James that has me torn between agreeing and totally disagreeing - which is great for debate. I have just seen so many Dojo's that i have visited were the norm is drill hard with 'copy me' and 'more training' will produce results attitude AND it simply DOES NOT! Sports science has now shown beyond doubt that supreme fitness, strength, flexibility etc will be overcome by technical excellence when all equal in the F,S,F Etc areas! I deeply believe that more students become efficient IF the teaching is detailed and explanatory rather than DRILL,DRILL, DRILL! i totally accept that part of that detail and explanation has to be about - strength fitness etc will maximise your potential. But when push comes to shove real fights are short term and the ability to cope and defend is more useful than the ability to fight a losing battle for an hour. Just food for thought = wadda you think?
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Post by kensei on Apr 7, 2011 1:10:45 GMT
VERY INTERESTING answer James that has me torn between agreeing and totally disagreeing - which is great for debate. I have just seen so many Dojo's that i have visited were the norm is drill hard with 'copy me' and 'more training' will produce results attitude AND it simply DOES NOT! hmmm....feel a friendly trap coming on! Truth is I agree for sure, but the thing is both are important. I have seen instructors who over intellectualize everyting (SP) and miss the point that they need to practice and work on the techniques they are chatting about for 45 minutes of a hour long work out....and others that drill you into the ground and dont talk at all! I think both need to be done, explain and have a few classes of theory and explanation and a few classes of "butt kickers" Sports science has now shown beyond doubt that supreme fitness, strength, flexibility etc will be overcome by technical excellence when all equal in the F,S,F Etc areas! I deeply believe that more students become efficient IF the teaching is detailed and explanatory rather than DRILL,DRILL, DRILL! Actually, it all depends on who you are talking about ext. A golfer who has great form and technique will KILL a hack who has big muscles and can run from here to Toronto and back (THAT FAR). However in things like wrestling they have shown that those that are conditioned will overcome those that try to stick to only mental trianing or technique training. HOWEVER its better to have both. Also in Sprinting, which I worked with some of the best Canadian sprinters 15 years ago, the best sprinters are those that train for more explosiveness and condition themselves to be physically ready for the events. Those that tried to work on techniques only were those that made great third and fourt stringers that woudl be better if they were better conditioned. I have also seen fencers that have great form lose out to those that were faster and had better conditioning. Same with Karate as a sport. HOWEVER< as a door man I have seen guys that have great techniques and were mentally strong beat the better conditioned guys in short fights...about 50% of the time. So what is the answer? BOTH! A good conditioned athlete with great skills and techniques will beat just about any fighter in the bar or in the tournament in my mind. Oh, and sport medicine and research is something I still keep up on. The form and training in techniques should be a 40-60 percent of training and I am BIG into periodization training were the first part of training is all conditioning and the last part is technical when it comes to athletics...but martial arts and life training is different. its complicated ;D i totally accept that part of that detail and explanation has to be about - strength fitness etc will maximise your potential. But when push comes to shove real fights are short term and the ability to cope and defend is more useful than the ability to fight a losing battle for an hour. Just food for thought = wadda you think? The better conditioned fighter will have better speed, strength, flexibility, endurance and stamina. A great fighter needs all of these....tournament or in a bar. HOWEVER, again...timing and distance are the two things I would want to perfect over speed and endurance to be frank....I have seen slower fighters with better timing destroy faster fighters. I am not saying one is more important than the next...I am saying they are both important. I just dont think that giving up conditioning for pure technical training and application training is going to make anyone a better fighter! ;D
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 7, 2011 2:36:35 GMT
well James it looks like we shall debate this for a while....
However in things like wrestling they have shown that those that are conditioned will overcome those that try to stick to only mental training or technique training. HOWEVER its better to have both.
totally irrelevant in the context of Karate - Grappling (wrestling IS a long endurance drawn out system that (yes, can be explosive and over in seconds BUT very rarely is = train for endurance and stamina.
Karate and real street encounters are vastly more likely to be split second events that rarely ever get to last more than a minute or so. 5 minutes would be an extraordinarily LONG event = FACT!
Also in Sprinting, which I worked with some of the best Canadian sprinters 15 years ago, the best sprinters are those that train for more explosiveness and condition themselves to be physically ready for the events. Those that tried to work on techniques only were those that made great third and fourt stringers that woudl be better if they were better conditioned.
In Karate training to be explosive and technically competent is the ideal - the only conditioning required is the conditioning needed to do that well!
I have also seen fencers that have great form lose out to those that were faster and had better conditioning. Same with Karate as a sport.
unless I am totally misunderstanding you James I have to respectfully say that the 'conditioning' that comes from 'Drill Drill and Drill to exhaustion' sessions will do FAR less in helping SD fighting skills than specific and targeted training to increase explosive speed, accuracy and a great deal of other things that require detailed targeted and instructive training. and the stamina etc needed for say 'Competition participation' can be gained far better out of the dojo than in it. Use the Dojo to learn Karate - use the gym to get more stamina or strength etc.
now that does not mean you should not sweat yer ass of in a Dojo - but sweat doing constructive work and not just sweating to the beat of your 200th gyakutsuki!
The better conditioned fighter will have better speed, strength, flexibility, endurance and stamina. A great fighter needs all of these....tournament or in a bar.
not sure about the stamina and endurance being vital in REAL encounters but otherwise sorta agree BUT get that fitness, strength etc quicker in that type of training and then sweat buckets whilst learning karate NOT just DRILLING the same old same old! which i am sure you do not doggedly teach but many do!
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Post by kensei on Apr 7, 2011 15:56:41 GMT
well James it looks like we shall debate this for a while....God I hope so Have not learned anything new in at least a week....dry spells suck! ;D totally irrelevant in the context of Karate - Grappling (wrestling IS a long endurance drawn out system that (yes, can be explosive and over in seconds BUT very rarely is = train for endurance and stamina.A good grappler will train both systems. Try to end the match as fast as they can, but they must also be ready for the "long haul". I have to say that their training in explosive power and speed often puts our training to shame...I blame that on the instructors who know nothing but Karate and have not "dipped" thier toes in other waters! Karate and real street encounters are vastly more likely to be split second events that rarely ever get to last more than a minute or so. 5 minutes would be an extraordinarily LONG event = FACT!That is SO correct. The typical sport Karate training is a bit over kill for someone who is looking for self defense training.....however, the conditioning that you get from training in a sport style conditioning club will help in three ways 1) gives you the fitness level to be able to perform under pressure (Read you are not a fat bastard and can kick above your own knee) 2) it gives you confidence, which we all know is about 1/4 the battle in a real situation and 3) it can be used to hard wire in specific movements that might be needed. If all you do is talk about punching and you never do it...how are you supposed to do it under pressure? In Karate training to be explosive and technically competent is the ideal - the only conditioning required is the conditioning needed to do that well!I think that is a bit simplistic a statement...which is why I like it! I think the only training that you need to be good at Karate is explosiveness, timing and techniques. That unto itself can be a great conditioning work out. unless I am totally misunderstanding you James I have to respectfully say that the 'conditioning' that comes from 'Drill Drill and Drill to exhaustion' sessions will do FAR less in helping SD fighting skills than specific and targeted training to increase explosive speed, accuracy and a great deal of other things that require detailed targeted and instructive training. and the stamina etc needed for say 'Competition participation' can be gained far better out of the dojo than in it. Use the Dojo to learn Karate - use the gym to get more stamina or strength etc.I totally Agree, however most people dont do both, hell some bairly make it to the dojo with any commitment. My job as an instructor is to find a way to get people fit enough to use the techniques we teach as well as teach techniques in a way that they can be used. I dont teach point Karate or sport Karate and think it is a waste of time for most of us. Hell at 40+ I am not really into sport Karate and most of the people I train with are hard working folk that have no want to compete and dont spend hours in a gym. The key to training "normal folk" is to mix a great work out with the kind of knowledge based training that will allow them to USE the technques if needed. I dont teach people to run marathons and I dont teach them to grapple for an hour, I teach them to end fights as fast and efficiently as possible. The conditioning is a plus now that does not mean you should not sweat yer ass of in a Dojo - but sweat doing constructive work and not just sweating to the beat of your 200th gyakutsuki!Totally agree, however I have been known to challenge myself to 1000 Gyaku zuki each side or 1000 Mae geri each side, but that is just for my personal challenge! ;D not sure about the stamina and endurance being vital in REAL encounters but otherwise sorta agree BUT get that fitness, strength etc quicker in that type of training and then sweat buckets whilst learning karate NOT just DRILLING the same old same old! which i am sure you do not doggedly teach but many do!I dont teach the "same Basics" to everyone. Heck even when I teach basics I try to mix it up and throw something in. Past white belt you will start learning more than JUST punching and kicking. But the fitness aspect is VERY important in self defense. Its common sense. You can be the best fighter in the world, but if you "let yourself go" some young buck who is faster and in better shape will eat your lunch if you fight!...and you know I mean fight. The issue of self defense training and fitness are not mutually exclusive, in fact I think they are co-dependent!
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 12, 2011 10:59:37 GMT
OK, flippant comment coming up but there is a point behind it So I am, in fact, the stereotypical "fat bastard" in a Karate Gi. However the operative word there is "bastard". This isn't in my nature by default and never has been, this is a learned attitude which I have developed through my training, (I hope ). This was pointed out to me by my son only a few weeks back when discussing the responses of various of our students to the same stimulus to which his response was "but you have to remember that you are a bastard, not everyone thinks like you". The point being that, as a result of the correct training I personally believe that they should. Isn't this to a large extent the point of training in a martial art rather than going to an aerobics class. I enjoy a good hard "sweat" session as much as the next guy but would much rather go to the dojo to learn what I refer to as the "technology of violence" (I'm not as much of a nutter as that makes me sound, honest) rather than as a workout class, which I can do a lot more effectively elsewhere.
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Post by kensei on Apr 12, 2011 15:42:59 GMT
love this term.....can I "borrow it"?
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 12, 2011 16:04:52 GMT
Help yourself
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 18, 2011 0:25:23 GMT
I agree with James. Use the KISS system (keep it simple, stupid) but hard, tough & gritty. Thanks, Tom
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 19, 2011 20:57:28 GMT
OK, I know I'm continuing to drift from the thread but just as a follow up to my previous statement Interesting thing happened tonight when training with the boy, we were doing some knife threat work which was going ok, I was doing some experimentation with him as the "threatener". Given how weapon focused (mock dojo) attackers seem to be when you put a knife in their hand I was really pleased to hear him say at the end of one disarm that his overwhelming urge had been to "bite my face" as he came forward while I was applying pressure to his arm/wrist (I had caught it out of the corner of my eye). The point being that, as a result of training, he's starting to look at the possibilities of "the fight" rather than the classic punch kick style karate we are generally taught.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the "classic" physical shotokan training, it's what I do probably 90% of the time, but there should also be time for the "mindset" training that is what (we hope) will get us through a real confrontation should it ever arise.
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Post by grunners4 on Apr 20, 2011 7:06:32 GMT
A question here with regards to violence, how realistic are our dojo sessions in recreating the feeling? Now I am going to sound just as much of a nutter as Bob, but when was the last time you felt completely threatened in a class, with the blood pounding in your head at the thought of whoever was coming up next in the line? And what they could possibly do if you didn't defend yourself correctly. Don't get me wrong, a safe, trusting environment is vital to the learning experience (as discussed elsewhere) but have we lost that sense of urgency in our training? I have been through sessions that I came out of thinking "holy moly how did I survive that" - now as terrible as the feeling is during the session, aren't these exactly the same emotions we go through when confronted with a real life threat?
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 20, 2011 11:22:09 GMT
Now about that.... ;D I have to say in all honesty I am about the least "nutty" guy you could meet, despite any evidence to the contrary in my recent offerings I am not in any way a fighter, I am just your bog standard average "hobbyist" karate-ka (previously referred to elsewhere as a "dojo dad") but I do feel that if one is studying a martial art (even as a hobby) then the key word should still be "martial" and we shouldn't forget that. I was recently "told off" in dojo for grabbing and use of the elbows in a drill that was to attack with "any attack" to which the revision was "no, no, no,... no elbows, only an attack that would score you a point!" I suffer from the opposite problem when I try and teach "fighting" techniques to my peers as many of them really struggle with not being able to attack/defend from at least 6 feet away and the idea of close range seems completely foreign to them (not sure how that happened as 99% of our training has been identical over the years and we all know the same techniques).
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 20, 2011 11:56:10 GMT
A question here with regards to violence, how realistic are our dojo sessions in recreating the feeling? Now I am going to sound just as much of a nutter as Bob, but when was the last time you felt completely threatened in a class, with the blood pounding in your head at the thought of whoever was coming up next in the line? And what they could possibly do if you didn't defend yourself correctly. Don't get me wrong, a safe, trusting environment is vital to the learning experience (as discussed elsewhere) but have we lost that sense of urgency in our training? I have been through sessions that I came out of thinking "holy moly how did I survive that" - now as terrible as the feeling is during the session, aren't these exactly the same emotions we go through when confronted with a real life threat? hey Grunners - this is exactly one of the points i shall be covering on the forthcoming Friendship course. showing people how to create a higher level of real 'Danger percieved' in the Dojo without undue risk. It all comes down to the secondary elements and how to make the student be in a real state of stress and risk of failure BUT overcome it. Bob is attending maybe he'll write you a report after the course.
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 20, 2011 12:41:23 GMT
Will do.
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 21, 2011 23:05:30 GMT
thank you stout and good fellow!
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 22, 2011 11:28:33 GMT
Still stout, that's for sure
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 23, 2011 15:07:39 GMT
the course will get rid of a bit of that !
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 23, 2011 20:11:05 GMT
With the way Ra looks after us? (I sort of doubt it )
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 24, 2011 2:38:13 GMT
Every time I train I am going in knowing that I am going to get hurt one day. But not today. The other night my son-in-law & I started sparring. By the end of the session I was screaming at him to hit me with gyaku zuki! After the class I apologized to him for getting carried away. He said that it was just what he needed. I will dodge the bullet next time too. Thanks, Tom
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Post by kensei on Apr 24, 2011 15:00:15 GMT
we are sick arnt we.......
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Post by Paul Bedard on Apr 24, 2011 20:36:20 GMT
Ha, ha, this makes me think of 2 of my brown belts. First a female who should be testing for shodan soon, we are training a lot of jyu kumite & a shoet while back I was working on her distance; `get right in there, you should fell my skin (jodan). A lot of time I encourage my students to get in close enough that they can feel the hairs on my mustache. Anyway she countered a mawashi geri & hit me on my cheek with a good gyaku zuki. She then apologized & it took her a moment to understand why I was smiling. I told her this is what I`ve been waiting for, you to make distance. `You have to know that you can hit your target`. This stopping the full thickness of you fist just won`t do. Don`t apologize, that is covered when we bow ( rei ). The other student a male teenage 2nd kyu he has barely been touching my gi with his chudan gyaku zuki. I tell him that is not good enough he should fell the opponents body. So we are facing each other & one does gyaku zuki to the parner & then gets one back. So I start lightly ( to me ) tagging him & he is still hitting my gi, so I tag him a little harder, now he tags me a bit, so I yell at him `come on get meaner, is that all you got`, then he hits a little harder, so I keep yelling`hit me`, lets just say that he delivered about 5 good one & I just smiled at him & told him that now you`re catching on. So we switch to kicking each other mae geri chudan, well it didn`t take long to get him to be making a satisfactory amount of contact. I got a pink belly to prove it. I was so proud of these two. I had the feeling that if they had to they could follow through their technique & `hit` their target. The same 2 were blocking my jodan mawashi geri & by the end of the session my ankle/shin area are quite bruised. They can actually block a solid kick. I`m proud of that bruise. It is almost healed enough to get another one. lol I guess that means I`m in that sick catagory to. ;D ;D
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Post by tomobrien on Apr 24, 2011 21:42:34 GMT
Sick? Yeah! ;D Ain't it great? Just keep doin it for as long as we can! Thanks, Tom (PS - you guys watch out! After I win the AAU Nationals 'old geezer' division, I'm comin to the UK this winter)
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 25, 2011 15:46:45 GMT
Not sick guys - just care about our students and know that - unlike a class we are highly likely not to be there when it REALLY kicks off. I would sooner a student hit me hard a lot - until i could teach him her how to 'control' the technique to exact skin contact to a moving live target = accuracy = ability to hit into the target if required cos you have learnt delicate distance control!
you are all clearly just Instructors who know Karate has 'contact' and thus have done it and can deal with it and are using that development in your arsenal to help you teach them = NOT Sick but great = Respect!
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