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Post by liamwatt on Sept 2, 2010 12:05:50 GMT
Was just thinking what martial art would go well with Shotokan Karate, was thinking along the lines of judo, but would like to hear everyones opinions.
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 2, 2010 14:59:06 GMT
Good Quality JU Jitsu is excellent and I have found that Chinese systems can teach us a lot about relaxing and kineasthetic awareness.
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 2, 2010 15:01:17 GMT
I had 6 months of Jujitsu (many years ago) and found that a lot of the techniques cross over directly into kata without any modification. Had a recent session with my niece's husband (a Sandan from another association) who had spent some time in Judo and again there were a lot of cross overs, in fact a number of the standard self defense techniques I use from my karate he could name as specific Judo techniques.
It's easy to interpret things as being stuff you already know (if it walks like a duck etc..) but I also think that the differences between the "core" arts aren't as big as they initially appear and a lot of the perceived differences are about which parts are emphasized in your chosen art.
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 2, 2010 16:37:20 GMT
I had 6 months of Jujitsu (many years ago) and found that a lot of the techniques cross over directly into kata without any modification. Had a recent session with my niece's husband (a Sandan from another association) who had spent some time in Judo and again there were a lot of cross overs, in fact a number of the standard self defense techniques I use from my karate he could name as specific Judo techniques. It's easy to interpret things as being stuff you already know (if it walks like a duck etc..) but I also think that the differences between the "core" arts aren't as big as they initially appear and a lot of the perceived differences are about which parts are emphasized in your chosen art. Forgive me if this sounds patronising - definitely not meant that way but I almost cheered when I read Bob's post - not cos i didn't think he had such clear understanding BUT because he is publically voicing what many think but are scared to say for fear of upsetting 'Seniors'. IMHO - his Ju Jitsu to Kata analysis is exactly what i have experienced. They move and if you have the imagination/visualisation skills you remove the opponent and see Kata moves - excellent cross training I think!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Sept 3, 2010 13:54:55 GMT
I ahve to wholeheartedly agree with Bob, its easy to see the cross over from jujitsu to kata "implications" and not so hard to understand when you consider that back when these kata were devised, the martial arts they were based upon were not so specialised eg not just based on block-punch-kick but had all the elements of jujitsu too. I also trained sporadically in jujitsu, mainly because my then instructor had a regular "beasting session" where anything went, including grappling, throat attacks, eye-gouging. I felt I needed an advantage lol. The art I mainly used to cross-train was Aikido but similar ethos.
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Post by liamwatt on Sept 13, 2010 11:43:40 GMT
Got me interested in giving jujitsu a try, but I'm not sure if only being a green belt it would conflict with my shotokan studies, so might wait till I have advanced a bit.
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Post by tomobrien on Oct 19, 2010 2:13:24 GMT
Cross train as much as you can - MMA, boxing, MT, BJJ, JJ, judo, SD, weapons & all. Vee-Jitsu was, is & always will be a mixed martial art. Professor Vee had a philosophy - A rose garden is beautiful. If you put all the other flowers in the garden you will have an even more beautiful garden. I always liked that outlook.
Thanks, Tom
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 19, 2010 4:04:07 GMT
I agree with Tom, cross train in whatever you can get exposed to. Judo, ju-jutsu, aikido are all good, boxing, muy tai, kali escrima, kung fu, even dare I say it TKD. I`m a die hard shotokan nut, but I`ll play with anybody... Archery, Iado, kendo would be fun too...fencing??
Osu Paul B
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Post by grunners4 on Oct 19, 2010 12:20:25 GMT
with this topic in mind, has anyone here done any Iain Abernathy courses? It would be great to hear what you think....
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Post by kensei on Dec 30, 2010 15:44:36 GMT
I think Cross training should be taken up around Shodan or Nidan. Before that you dont really "Get it" yet. And muddy waters make for "Crap fishing"!
I think that the type of cross training you select will reflect your want or need in martial arts. In my youth I took up Judo and some boxing and kick boxing....but I needed to learn how to handle violent situations as I was working as a doorman in a bar and also at the time wanted to be a cop and go into the military.
As life moved on I waivered and moved into the sports med feild and focused on my Karate and took up Kendo and Aikido as "fun" things to play with. The Kendo complementing Karate and Aikido filling a void with the grappling my instructors were not filling.
Now that I am getting older I see a void in grappling that Aikido can not fill and have taken to BJJ a little with Karate being the major focus.
As I get older I am looking more and more at things like Tai chi and other chinese internal arts to complement my Karate so that my health is more of a focus.
your Cross training may change as you move along, but the focus for some of us will always be "who can we cross train to complament our Karate" thus keeping Shotokan or your choosen style as the focus.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 31, 2010 3:50:29 GMT
I have to agree with kensei here. When he says that you should be at a higher level before getting serious about cross training & that it should complement your Shotokan or whatever your main system is. I one read an article of a reaction to a statement about `so & so`. So & so has a green belt in karate & he has a green belt in judo & he has a green belt in ju-jutsu & a green belt in kobudo & a green belt in aikido & a green belt in.... The reaction was; So he is `just a green belt`. In so saying, get good at something, then experiment to get better... Osu Paul B
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Post by kensei on Dec 31, 2010 14:08:45 GMT
I had my 1st kyu when I started playing with Kendo...but I have to admit I was a yellow belt when I stared Judo, but it was as a kid and I graded up to Shodan in Judo, passed and then went back to Karate full time (having only been part time when doing judo).
I did not get into the other arts until I got my Shodan as well and only recently have I stared playing with BJJ. But again, I only have graded in Judo and two styles of Kung fu. The rest were just for fun and to see what I might be missing...strangely the answer was nothing!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Dec 31, 2010 17:19:16 GMT
It is great to get another perspective but in the end there are only so many ways to attack the human body and most of us only have 2 arms and two legs as mediums for those attacks. No matter how inventive an ma is, eventually you come to realise there is nothing new under the sun.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Dec 31, 2010 17:51:30 GMT
Years ago, I had a friend of mine that I went through high school with, who had become a successful kickboxer ( Tom LaRoche ), come to our dojo & do a week long camp. He was mainly a `white crane gung fu` stylist & my students were amazed at the similarities of what they had already learned from yours truly & the techniques that he had us working on. When he was approached on the subject of different styles, he had mentioned that there were `only so many ways to punch & kick`.. osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Dec 31, 2010 22:13:49 GMT
It is great to get another perspective but in the end there are only so many ways to attack the human body and most of us only have 2 arms and two legs as mediums for those attacks. No matter how inventive an ma is, eventually you come to realise there is nothing new under the sun. don't forget the auld glaswegian kiss James - see the articles section for what i mean - and the very best new year for you, your family and those fine - if clinically insane - lovely club members of yours
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Post by tomobrien on Jan 5, 2011 3:25:34 GMT
The ukemi waza I learned doing judo saved my butt (literally)! Everybody knows we had a blizzard here last week. I fell on the ice in my driveway & did not get hurt because I did a beautifully executed breakfall. I don't care that no one was there to see it (I know you guys would have paid money to get me on video). I came away unscathed. No hip replacements for me. ;D I think judo compliments any other art. Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 5, 2011 11:40:59 GMT
Paid Money to see it - I'd have mortgaged the house! good Job Tom great and useful skills. Woulda loved to see it though HAHAHAHAHA!
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Post by shinzan on Jan 5, 2011 12:19:40 GMT
Even the art of falling with style? I bet when you got up you still had a look around to see if anyone saw you. I did the most comedic fall of my life a couple of weeks ago. I parked my car outside the shop I was going to. It has plate glass windows all around and was busy. I proceed to open my door, put one foot on the very icy road, went to step out of the car and woosh! only the fact that I was still holding onto the door saved me from going flat on my back. I actually had to laugh at myself but from the shop it must have been hilarious
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Post by kensei on Jan 5, 2011 13:13:56 GMT
I dont really agree with the "Their is only so many ways to do something...we only hve two arms and two legs (and as Steve has pointed out one head!). I would say that some styles are so vastly different in approach that we have to say that while their are only so many ways to hit something or throw someone ext...their are LOTS and we have different ways of presenting them.
I remember boxing as a kid and the guys that I boxed with were all ONLY boxers. They had so many bad habits when throwing a punch, but they seemed to have more ways to punch than I did as a Karate purple belt. I mean we had Gyaku Zuki and Oi zuki really (Kizami as well). But that was it...they had 8 different ways to punch you and we used two kinds really.
It was not till later that I noted that their were more punches in Karate than we used, but essentially we used two to three punches alone.
Then I joined Judo and though....How many throws can their be? LOTS! And then in Aikido I learned even more throws and the plethera of things to do harm to others grew!
We may only have two arms and two feet (and yes Steve one head) But we have so many different ways to apply techniques and really even more ways to alter them ever so slightly to make them different.
The more martial arts we study to help our style of Karate the more we can bring back to help enhance our style. Hell go to a regular kick boxing school and then a Thai school. See the different conditioning drills they do. That alone is worth brining back to the club.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 5, 2011 15:22:40 GMT
I dont really agree with the "Their is only so many ways to do something...we only hve two arms and two legs (and as Steve has pointed out one head!). I would say that some styles are so vastly different in approach that we have to say that while their are only so many ways to hit something or throw someone ext...their are LOTS and we have different ways of presenting them. I remember boxing as a kid and the guys that I boxed with were all ONLY boxers. They had so many bad habits when throwing a punch, but they seemed to have more ways to punch than I did as a Karate purple belt. I mean we had Gyaku Zuki and Oi zuki really (Kizami as well). But that was it...they had 8 different ways to punch you and we used two kinds really. It was not till later that I noted that their were more punches in Karate than we used, but essentially we used two to three punches alone. Then I joined Judo and though....How many throws can their be? LOTS! And then in Aikido I learned even more throws and the plethera of things to do harm to others grew! We may only have two arms and two feet (and yes Steve one head) But we have so many different ways to apply techniques and really even more ways to alter them ever so slightly to make them different. The more martial arts we study to help our style of Karate the more we can bring back to help enhance our style. Hell go to a regular kick boxing school and then a Thai school. See the different conditioning drills they do. That alone is worth brining back to the club. Couldn't agree more with Kensei's advice to go have a look. not only will you gain in knowledge you'll make new friends and you can be a good advocate that shows that not all Shotokan Karateka are stuck in a time warp! Nice one Kensei
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 7, 2011 18:41:40 GMT
Dont get me wrong guys , I have been cross training since 4th kyu and have always found it a benefit. I was merely pointing out that eventually you will come full circle and realise there are core techniques and the rest is a variation on those core principles. Go and explore ! it is expanding and life-affirming and bloody great fun!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 7, 2011 18:44:19 GMT
don't forget the auld glaswegian kiss James - see the articles section for what i mean - and the very best new year for you, your family and those fine - if clinically insane - lovely club members of yours [/quote] Thanks for your good wishes Steve and the very best to you and yours. By the way you did not meet the real loonies, thought it might be too much on first visit! promise to let them out of the attic next time!
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 8, 2011 13:21:22 GMT
do i need to bring garlic and silver bullets?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 8, 2011 20:19:57 GMT
well most of them enjoy a rich diet but bring the gun anyway
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Post by westbfella on Jan 13, 2011 17:13:28 GMT
I am a karate-ka.
I train Judo and on Paper rank higher than karate. I started first with Judo, got beat up at the back of a bus aged 12 and could not throw a punch or throw so started karate.
When I train Judo I think karate and when I train karate I think karate. Sounds strange unless you do it. I think because my heart is always karate and always will be.
I think MMA is great if you have an art to mix. You are a karate-ka who mixes it with ground game. Or a Jujitsu-ka who mixes it with up top game.
I'm not a fan of those guys who I meet and our conversations go like this "I hear you do karate?" "Yes I do. Do you do any martial arts?" "I do MMA" "Great. What martial art to you do?" "I do MMA" "Cool." "Karate is rubbish for self defence. You should do MMA"
Sadly I meet more and more people like this. MMA classes are full in my area - but this type of class is cutting corners in a way. They have no 'art' to mix.
I cross train in Judo but I still do karate no matter what mat I'm on. The Kamae I have for karate is very simlar to the grip I have in Judo. I strive for a perfect Ko soto gaku as if I doing tekki shodan.
I dont see anything wrong with cross training - I dont even see it as that - its just an extension of my karate-do
Ossu
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Post by kensei on Jan 13, 2011 17:52:57 GMT
Right on james. Cross training is cross training...mixing a tid bit here and a tid bit their is not a good way to develop a personal fighting style. My grad dad used to ask if you wanted to master a skill or learn a little bit about a few things and not master anything. He was a florrist that focused on a specific part of flower work. And he was the best in the city at making funeral arraingements.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 15, 2011 15:50:50 GMT
As i have said elsewhere I have found training with and exploring other styles to merely deepen my core study: Shotokan Karate Do.
I totally agree with the argument that a lot of MMA students are in danger of becoming 'a Jack of all trades and a Master of None!.
I believe there is an oriental saying 'You cannot hunt 2 rabbits - concentrate on one if you wish to eat!'
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Post by westbfella on Jan 15, 2011 19:52:10 GMT
Just to turn this dicussion around as I think we are pretty much agreed (and where's the fun in that??)
Can anyone think of a martial art that works against karate?
Ossu
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 15, 2011 20:24:28 GMT
marraige!
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Post by westbfella on Jan 15, 2011 21:21:52 GMT
Hahahaha Not always - I met my wife through karate and every girlfriend I ever had !!!
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