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Post by kensei on Jul 17, 2011 13:49:22 GMT
Ok here goes! What James and myself were endorsing was balance I believe. That empirical research was the way forward and that theories and supposition were not. We all should be willing to listen to and respect someone who has new or challenging ideas if they are backed up by putting those ideas into practise. Job done and no one insulted ( I hope ) Very good explanation, and I have to say that I know of alot of instructors who are "Do as I say, not as I do" types...not due to physical ailments or health issues, or even age....but because they are lazy, egomaniacs that were never much good at Karate anyways...they simply are bullies that stuck it out long enough and played politics better than anyone else. or others that had better skills chatting than kicking and they basically parlayed their skill set into being online bullies and the like. The good thing is that if you were to put some old git who was injured but had a solid graps of Karate and tried (like Steve) against one of them you would be able to see behind the curtain (no steve this is not a Kilt joke) and see whom you should be listening to. Hands down people who have done it and will continue to do it, some times dispite what doctors and family say, still have the ability to train others and are genuine people who research from a point of experience (and often behind a pint of experience ). The others will use fancy terms and use research from other areas to try to back themselves up, when challenged they become agressive and bully their way out of situations. Fact is, with all the fancy shmancy terms that some toss about, they simply dont understand what they are spewing on about. I would much rather take a class from Steve Hyland and exchange ideas with our banter and often insulting rhetoric than take a class from a bully wanna be who has not done Karate in years simply because they dont have to actually do Karate in order to bully and feel dominant over someone...they are truely sad. At the end of the day, no matter what someone like them says or does, I go to my basement and strap on my Gi and Obi and do what I love, while they sit around and chat about how great they WERE at Karate and how much they know!
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Post by superjock on Jul 17, 2011 19:50:46 GMT
ome toss about, they simply dont understand what they are spewing on about. I go to my basement and strap on my Gi and Obi and do what I love, while they sit around and chat about how great they WERE at Karate and how much they know! You wear your gi for training in your basement??? I trained in my garage for 8 years never saw my gi in all that time. Have a wonderful silk blackbelt (11 years old) that is still black. Hear what your saying about the 'cleverer types' they are in all walks of life. 1000 words when 10 would do. Seen some real clever foresters who wrote some high brow papers got published and aclaimed. Yet could they plant a tree or start a chainsaw? Nut!!
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 18, 2011 0:17:20 GMT
FOR CLARITY: I have had a couple of pm's about this thread and i think some are feeling I was somehow mistreated and thus upset = NO not at all. I have tried to explain that my responce to James James's Post and James Lukes 'HEAR HEAR' was mostly tongue in cheek (I did put up a lot of smiley's including and ). But for newcomers here you'll find that this is a safe Forum to voice disagreements etc (as long as done sincerely and with no personal attacks). they are a great group including many i converse privately with often via P.M's etc. Some i have done so with for a long time. Some I haven't met yet but Sincerely Hope to (Paul Bedard, Fleur, Andrew. Neil etc the list is long! who have helped me privately with many things (proof reading excerpts from my forthcomiong Book etc) and I look on them as friends - Others I do know , have trained with (some for decades) and some I have had the happy experience of even staying in thier homes = FANTASTIC! Dod, Rod and James L for example So thank you for the kind comments - James and James expect 'revenge HAHA! and every one else thanks for your concern but I am fime SO- Back to the thread - I do understand and even agree with some of the points James James makes and James Luke 'Hear Hears'. For me it has been - Major reconstructive surgery to pin my right foot back together, I was teaching on crutches for months, A heart attack and Stroke 2007 followed by 4 TIA's (mini Strokes. Total hip replacement and two groin ruptues 2010 and discovery of previously undiagnosed Bilaterl fractures in my spine so constant pain. But I have two Dojo at home - do what I can and teach on courses , private lessons and Club visits when asked to. I am registered disabled and don't move without excruciating pain but i manage as best i can. I am writing two books and have published several articles etc. Truth - I feel embarrased and ashamed of my physical limitations every time i stand in front of a class so i try EXTRA hard to make sure I at least give them useful information and hence the use of homemade equipment (that they can go and make) A Blackboard for diagrams etc and lots of note taking. I hope to teach as long as possible - even in a wheelchair if i have to - WHY because I love it and am HONOURED to be asked. To be honest - the love of family and good friends and the sense of feeling useful by teaching and writing keeps me alive I am sure of it! Thanks everyone! Rant over
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 18, 2011 8:31:58 GMT
I wouldn't Steve. Without trying to come over as a bit of an a*se licker, I would say that (from my personal point of view at least) there is never any feeling from the student side that your physical limitations impact upon a class in any way what so ever. If I want an aerobic karate based workout session I can get that anywhere (in fact had one this Sunday under a big name instructor, don't get me wrong, it was great fun but NOT a learning experience) but I've consistently got more out of your classes in a two hour session than pretty much any other training I've ever had, it's the difference between getting back to a learning experience every time I walk into your dojo, (the first time I've learned anything in the last several years of training) and just turning up to practice (sometimes badly ) the same old stuff over and over again. There are times when it is more than appropriate to put your "theory" into other peoples "practice" on the basis that you've done your time. Anyway, enough crawling for one day (you goin' to be nice to me this weekend? )
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 18, 2011 10:30:32 GMT
To those out there who felt aggrieved on Steves behalf, don't! He is more than capable of sticking up for himself! As far as Steves training is concerned, he has more than "served his time" and I am sure no one is suggesting that because he has physical limitations at present he has nothing of any validity to say or teach. on the contrary I would urge anyone who has the opportunity to attend a course with Steve Hyland or even the chance to take him out for a pint to do so, you are bound to learn something even if it is just the awesome capacity of a human being to drink cider!
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Post by kensei on Jul 18, 2011 14:07:45 GMT
HOLLY CRAPPER STEVE....who are you Rasputin? God, has the wife been feeding you poison as well for years...drawn and quartered and you still can come and teach a decent class? ;D ;D I am starting to think you will never die! Lit aflame and trampled by horses yet he still gets up to have a pint and chat about the finer points of Kata! Seriously, for those that felt we were attacking Steve, dont! I have nothing but respect for that dirty old sock of a man and someday hope that he can hobble out to teach a class I am part of. I direct my anger at those fakes and frauds that put them selves out as proffessors of the truth of Karate, but have never really participated with their heart, those that live off of the nieve and uninformed! I dont particularly like guys with web sites who dont do Karate anymore and do nothing but use their site to complain! But Steve, well other than him trying to teach me to write like a real Welshman...and failing...Well he is a good egg, be it old and starting to smell a tad off! ;D ;D ;D Those that are lucky enough to reside in my families home land should drop in and force a pint down his gullet, you may end up learning about Karate as well. From the few years I have been chatting back and forth he has shown nothing but the utmost respect for Karate (if not me) and he has shown his knowledge and understanding to be of the highet caliber...or at least he knows were all the good pubs are....I am told!
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 18, 2011 22:05:10 GMT
OH DEAR - yer'vr done it again - I obviously got it wromg. I was merely trying to point out that the two James's are friends of mine = one i haven't met personally YET (J. James) and the other that I am honoured to have taught at his club sevferal times and thus stayed in his house (J.Luke) - which was a joy - i met family and friends and had a great time - they even allowed me to cook for them and didn't laugh . I have also gone 'for a pint' with Jim and his students to a local pub that many would go 'Oh crikey tis a zoo' but all was fine everytime - cos if they played up = Jim kinda growled and then they all went back to the bar and behaved. therefore I detailed my experience as they know it and have been really helpful - especially Jim Luke by inviting me to teach and inviting me back even though he knows I am basically knackered! So cos of relationships developed over time we do tend to jibe each other (just like Dod and I do) and I LOVE THAT. SO THANKS FOR THE KIND COMMENTS - PLEASE CONTINUE TO GIVE THEM A HARD TIME AND THEN BACK TO THE THREAD - which was about the life of a mammalian animal on mars............... or someut like that
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Post by superjock on Jul 19, 2011 5:47:42 GMT
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 19, 2011 8:34:44 GMT
How dare you sir! I take you to the most salubrious watering hole in the whole village and you liken it to a zoo! I like to think of it more as Charles Darwins waiting room.
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Post by quickerkicker on Jan 4, 2013 22:05:51 GMT
The primary purpose of kata is to enable us to inflict pain upon our aggressors in response to unprovoked acts of violence
The original order of the original kata is significant
The first part of kata deal with the basic skills that occur early on in an altercation While the latter part of the kata deal with the more advanced skills or support skills if the altercation doesn’t come to a quick end.
Angles in kata are in relation to your opponent NOT turning that direction to face the attack
Principles Removing obstacles (limbs) so you can strike, gripping with one hand to improve striking accuracy, both hands are always engaged (never a dead hand), controlling your attackers movements striping grips from yourself striking to weak points, off balancing and throwing, (push pull , sweeps) power generation (rotation, compress expand, moving into the punch) inviting the attack (using your posture so you know where to attack will be) crossing hands are often joint locks,
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Post by daveb on Jan 13, 2013 0:58:21 GMT
The principle is the rule behind the sequence.
There are three main types of principle in any kata Mechanical. Tactical. Strategic.
Mechanical principles are the rules behind posture, stance, movement and power generation. These principles are what define technique.
Keeping a straight back, inward tension in your stance, keeping the tanden level through your movement and using the legs to generate power in hand strikes are all examples of mechanical principles.
Tactical principles govern the use of individual techniques and actions.
Using the leading leg kekomi to intercept forward movement or using a certain kamae to draw in the opponent are tactical principles.
Strategic principles govern the game plan of the fight: they are the rules that tell you how "you go from the moment you know your in a conflict to standing over the broken corpses of your enemies. ; An example of strategic principles might be using powerful fast strikes to intercept aggressive actions or punish openings left by the opponent while continually keeping out of reach by moving to the outside of him.
In order to find the principles behind the kata sequences, you must first find the application of the sequence you are looking at.
When you understand the application and have spent some time drilling it you will be able to say how the application works and why it works.
Understanding these two points will enable you to use combinations and techniques that though different work in the same way and achieve the same goals as the sequences in the kata. Exploring these variations on the technique of the kata in both semi free and free fighting exercises will let you figure out when you should apply that part of the kata or similar techniques.
These laws of when and how to use tactics from the kata are the principles that many speak of but few can define. These are what we apply from our kata when we get in a fight. E.g. A fighters thought process might go something like: "...skip back just far enough to make him try to hit me again (tactical principle), plant the rear foot and drive forward from the hip (mechanical principle) with a reverse punch right through his face. Then step off to the left to keep him confused as I check if he's got reinforcements and repeat until he gives up or is unconscious (strategic principle).."
Now obviously as martial artists we all know our mechanical principles. Many of us will know a good number of tactical principles and some of US will even know some fight strategies. The question is, are the generic rules picked up over the years the same rules presented in the various kata and kata groups?
Are there methods that we don't already know hidden below the surface of our kata?
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Post by th0mas on Jan 14, 2013 10:36:37 GMT
..snip.. Now obviously as martial artists we all know our mechanical principles. Many of us will know a good number of tactical principles and some of US will even know some fight strategies. The question is, are the generic rules picked up over the years the same rules presented in the various kata and kata groups? Are there methods that we don't already know hidden below the surface of our kata? The obvious cheaty answer is "it depends on the kata"...and "it depends on the karateka". Some kata's have an obvious theme or style to them.. which is not unsurprising given that a number of the older ones where created to record a particular fighting style learnt from a stranger or visitor... and clearly those visiting fighters had their own personal approaches to fighting gained through their own experience... On the other hand, the Junro kata's for example where created for a particular purpose by Asai sensei; to improve the flexibilty and fluidity of movement, that Asai saw lacking in many of the non-Japanese karateka he instructured on his travels.. I would therefore argue that as a set of kata, the Junro's probably do not have an underlying fighting strategy as compared with the more traditional shotokan kata's...as the principles are all about mechanical form rather than fighting application. This is an arguable point (and I make no apologies for my following view) but even so any fighting strategies present in the Junro kata's would probably be based on the more "unrealistic" shotokan-long-fighting-range often expressed by the JKA over the last 50 years... ...as compared to the less structured blood, guts and shouting you see on a friday night at closing time in Redhill, for example. Anyway, a key underlying principle shown in the majority of kata's, especially for those practitioners who began training in shotokan 20+ years ago will be that the classic "block-counter" approach, which underpins the majority of our training (classical and competition), is not the best way to defend yourself in a real altercation.... ...the assumption being that being able to hit really hard is very important (as taught in classical shotokan), but having a set of tools the allow you to create the opening or opportunites to be able to hit-them-really-hard is also extremely useful. The 26 kata's tend to show a string of controlling applications, usually from a grabbing or trapping initiation/start. This is inline with the idea of capture, maintain control and dominate. Which is a much more effective strategy once you have either lost control of the situation and fighting has ensured.. The majority of the technique sequences demonstrated in the katas can work from both a pre-emptive or reactive position (assuming you can regain control obviously.. and the kata's show you how to do that too BTW IMHO). So "Are there methods that we don't already know hidden below the surface of our kata?" I would argue, it depends from where you've started from...
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 14, 2013 16:22:44 GMT
Hello Tom
From what I understand Junro kata allow the student to develop the lesser used striking and spinning techniques with similar lesser used stances. They contribute to a greater understanding of effective Bujutsu. Read Andre Bertel's blog "The Importance of Junro Kata" dated 22/06/2007. The principles are definitely about fighting application as per the term Bujutsu. Personally I do not think that being mechanical comes into the equation.
What makes you think that the Shotokan long fighting range is unrealistic? The long range is there for a specific reason, it does not allow the Friday night blood guts and shouting scenario you mention to invade your personal space. It gives you the option of fight or flight at your own pace. Have you ever trained in long range techniques? Try Dave Hooper or Yahara as an example of long range? Blink and they are on you like a rash.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by th0mas on Jan 14, 2013 17:22:46 GMT
Hi Allan
This is where I have a real bee-in-my-bonnet.. I have trained for many years in shotokan (with some great instructors) but the problem has always been that we get too comfortable fighting at long range with other shotokan practitioners. This can result in a sense of vulnerability if we happen to face someone who does not fight in the "shotokan" way and rudely engages at the medium to short range. This is unfortunate as most violent thugs you meet on the street are not going to be Shotokan practitioners.
So over a decade ago I set-out a personal training goal to get much better at close to medium range... The premise being that we should train how we expect to have to fight.
The point I am trying to make is that although having fighting skills at long range is desirable (having been on the receiving end of Elwin hall certainly made me have respect on that regard), however it is only one aspect of your training and traditionally classical Shotokan has really only been about long range. I believe the Shotokan fighting style was influenced quite heavily by the Japanese kendo model of combat... which, to be honest, is not a good fit for the types of habitual violence you might get involved in on a Friday night.
Too often Shotokan Dojos just focus on the long range and having the ability to fight at long range does not, by itself, give you the option to fight and flight at your own pace, unless you also have the necessary skills at all ranges, so as to enable you to control and dominate your opponents.
I have read Andre's blog and it was his anecdote about Sensei Assai and the Junro kata's that I paraphrased above...
Oh, and just to set the record straight I am not half-bad at long range and I have also trained with Dave Hooper on more than one occasion.
Cheers
Tom
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 14, 2013 19:02:19 GMT
Hi Tom
No probs, the point I was trying to make is that our "Shotokan" is what we want it to be at any range.
I have been fortunate enough to train with Goju, Kyokushinkai, Taekwondo etc and when I have done free style with them I have simply adjusted my distance to suit their anomalies of style. For example Taekwondo rely on distance for their kicks to be effective so just close the gap for close quarter whereas Goju go for close quarter so open up the gap. Kyokushinkai sort of mid way.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by th0mas on Jan 15, 2013 7:19:45 GMT
Hi Allan
We both agree that it should be possible to apply shotokan at all ranges when doing free style, in fact shotokan's distilled uncomplicated focus on dynamic/aggressive action lends itself to free-style sparring. However self-protection outside of the dojo is not the same as sparring/free style with other martial artists.
Personally I believe the underlying fighting principles in the original set of kata are geared towards fighting in a self-protection situation not a dojo or martial arts duelling scenario. It is therefore likely that the less obvious strategic lessons to be learnt in kata will not lend themselves to free-style or competition karate.
I think this is self-evident, especially when you look back over the last 30-40 years in Shotokan, with it's focus on dojo sparring and competition fighting. Of the classical three K's, kata was relegated to a weird anachronistic offshoot.. with a wiff of pointless dance and a slight smell of fighting irrelevance...
Cheers
Tom
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 16, 2013 10:55:48 GMT
All dueling is formalised and to a point stylised too. It bears little resemblance to back-street fighting/self-protection etc. but it serves a purpose. It gives the practitioner experience in spontaneous engagement of the opponent, it allows them to experience adrenalin dump and its effects and it is reflexive and reactive so giving a vital insight into how situations can instantly change! Unfortunately, Shotokan is not a joined-up system so we view its elements as separate. The three "K`s" are a perfect example of this and if there is too much emphasis training-wise on any of the single elements it renders the it unfit for purpose IMO. Sparring should be viewed as just that and it should be obvious when you take out any and all potentially lethal techniques and their targets, that by training in just that aspect, you water down the effectiveness.
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Post by th0mas on Jan 16, 2013 12:08:12 GMT
Absolutely Jim. (you now sound like a blackadder character.."strangely Brown". ...Guess the episode anybody?
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Post by kensei on Jan 16, 2013 13:02:36 GMT
Hate to show how out of touch we are with the BBC here "Across the pond" that and I dont really know much pop culture...but what is a "Black Addler"?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Jan 16, 2013 14:12:47 GMT
Hi James
It is not Pop Culture, it was a sort of comedy sit com!
It is "Black Adder" played by Rowan Atkinson who was also Mr Bean another comedy sit com.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by th0mas on Jan 16, 2013 14:14:40 GMT
Hate to show how out of touch we are with the BBC here "Across the pond" that and I dont really know much pop culture...but what is a "Black Addler"? Black Adder is a UK TV show of 4 Series (+2 specials). It is pseudo-historical Comedy, based during the 15th Century (series 1); 16th Century (series 2), 18th/19th Century (Series 3) and 20th Century (Series 4) It has some of the absolute cream of British comedy talent (Rowan Atkinson Plays Edmund Blackadder (Mr Bean), Hugh Laughrie (House), Stephen Fry (lots & Lots of stuff), Peter Cook, Brian Blessed etc.. You have a real treat ahead of you, I am envious. Series 1 is the weakest, but still good. Series 2 is often most peoples favourite... www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BOzOxry6lA
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Post by kensei on Jan 17, 2013 12:53:11 GMT
Wow, I know who Mr. Bean is and he was also in some spoof of James Bond a while back. I will watch them this week end and get a bit "back to the family roots" as it were with some British Ha ha!
We dont get the BBC here in Canada much at all, we see more American TV than British so I do know house.
Thanks for the cultural exchange guys.
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