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Post by superjock on Jul 30, 2011 5:02:12 GMT
With just over 2 years to go before I have to hold a black belt grading I am thinking now about the skills and knowledge that are required at black belt level.
Just to let you know although I have trained for 28 years due to 3 failed shodan gradings and more than one association change I am a only a shodan. Being on my own with no aspirations of joining any other association coupled with the fact that I will never 'self grade' this is the grade where I will remain.
To me apart from the usual physical factors a black belt should be able to train on his/her own and drive his/her own karate education.
A black belt should know the requirements up to black belt and design his/her own training programme up to the big day.
A black belt has done his/her apprenticeship and will now be considered a craftsman in the art. And all that entails.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jul 30, 2011 18:04:53 GMT
I hope that I don`t sound disrespectful here, but I think that Superjock might be expecting a bit much out of a shodan with his 3 points of what a black belt should be able to do. Should be able to train on his own: Should be able to self-train yes, but for development, still needs to periodically train under someone more experienced. Else we get really good at our mistakes... Should know requirements & train on their own up to the big day? If the big day is testing to the next level, then no I don`t believe this. There is more skill to be aquired in each of the 3 K`s & you need periodic guidance to improve. A black belt has done his her apprenticeship & will now be considered a craftsman. I`m sorry but I`m laughing at this one!! A shodan has more or less just finishes high school & is now ready to begin his/her post-secondary education. So in essence, ready tom begin his.her apprenticeship. I wouldn`t call anyone below 3rd dan a craftsman/journeyman & a 3rd dan is a new one at that. A fresh journeyman/craftsman still has much to learn & experience to gain, but he/she should be able to work on their own without supervision & able to do their own research. However he/she will still gain from the experience of others. In shotokan for example, at this level, you should be able to perform the basic 15 kata, but there is still a long way to go..
So, having touched briefly on this, let me say that in my opinion, a black belt is just a new begining.. Only now we understand the basics, so we should learn at a faster rate & have more fun... Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 31, 2011 2:03:47 GMT
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Post by superjock on Jul 31, 2011 7:34:04 GMT
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 31, 2011 14:47:09 GMT
I know you are now studying a kind of hybrid system Andrew but there are many here with considerable experience and a very broad base of study - use the modern technology. Film yourself and privately send the clips to the seniors here for analysis and critique. Distance learning is possible for you. I am sure many would agree to help you - I certainly would be willing to do so. Bob Davis knows how to send private - 'selected eyes only' - clips and would tell you how! Don't feel so isolated you are an OSS member!
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Post by superjock on Jul 31, 2011 19:48:19 GMT
I know you are now studying a kind of hybrid system Andrew but there are many here with considerable experience and a very broad base of study - use the modern technology. Film yourself and privately send the clips to the seniors here for analysis and critique. Distance learning is possible for you. I am sure many would agree to help you - I certainly would be willing to do so. Bob Davis knows how to send private - 'selected eyes only' - clips and would tell you how! Don't feel so isolated you are an OSS member! Thanks Steve, might take you up on that one. Knowledge is there on how to send private clips...just that with the school holidays the kids kept shutting down the computer...sending me back to stage 1. Frustrating
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Post by stevenm on Jul 31, 2011 20:55:42 GMT
I hope that I don`t sound disrespectful here, but I think that Superjock might be expecting a bit much out of a shodan with his 3 points of what a black belt should be able to do. Should be able to train on his own: Should be able to self-train yes, but for development, still needs to periodically train under someone more experienced. Else we get really good at our mistakes... Should know requirements & train on their own up to the big day? If the big day is testing to the next level, then no I don`t believe this. There is more skill to be aquired in each of the 3 K`s & you need periodic guidance to improve. A black belt has done his her apprenticeship & will now be considered a craftsman. I`m sorry but I`m laughing at this one!! A shodan has more or less just finishes high school & is now ready to begin his/her post-secondary education. So in essence, ready tom begin his.her apprenticeship. I wouldn`t call anyone below 3rd dan a craftsman/journeyman & a 3rd dan is a new one at that. A fresh journeyman/craftsman still has much to learn & experience to gain, but he/she should be able to work on their own without supervision & able to do their own research. However he/she will still gain from the experience of others. In shotokan for example, at this level, you should be able to perform the basic 15 kata, but there is still a long way to go.. So, having touched briefly on this, let me say that in my opinion, a black belt is just a new begining.. Only now we understand the basics, so we should learn at a faster rate & have more fun... Osu Paul B What if a shodan had forty years experience, or was as good as a godan? Is he always to be considered an apprentice, because of his lack of interest in grades? Surely we should seek improvement, not advancement.
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Post by superjock on Aug 1, 2011 3:53:26 GMT
[/quote] What if a shodan had forty years experience, or was as good as a godan? Is he always to be considered an apprentice, because of his lack of interest in grades? Surely we should seek improvement, not advancement.[/quote] Notice I didn't mention what grade..............
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Post by tomobrien on Aug 2, 2011 3:01:16 GMT
What if you were a yondan for 20 yrs. because your sensei died What if you adopted your sensei's freind/dojo mate as your sensei after he died. What if your adopted sensei promoted you to godan after those 20 years What if after 4 yrs. you were smart enough to present your sensei with one of your silver medals that you won in a national competition to hang in his hombu dojo & what if after presenting your sensei with said silver medal he said he was going to promote you to rokudan Pretty cool hah? Thanks, Tom
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Post by Paul Bedard on Aug 2, 2011 3:14:44 GMT
What if you were a yondan for 20 yrs. because your sensei died What if you adopted your sensei's freind/dojo mate as your sensei after he died. What if your adopted sensei promoted you to godan after those 20 years What if after 4 yrs. you were smart enough to present your sensei with one of your silver medals that you won in a national competition to hang in his hombu dojo & what if after presenting your sensei with said silver medal he said he was going to promote you to rokudan Pretty cool hah? Thanks, Tom Sounds like a story that needs to be told! Is this from personal experience Tom? Yes it is pretty cool!! Osu Paul B
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Post by Paul Bedard on Aug 2, 2011 3:33:33 GMT
I hope that I don`t sound disrespectful here, but I think that Superjock might be expecting a bit much out of a shodan with his 3 points of what a black belt should be able to do. Should be able to train on his own: Should be able to self-train yes, but for development, still needs to periodically train under someone more experienced. Else we get really good at our mistakes... Should know requirements & train on their own up to the big day? If the big day is testing to the next level, then no I don`t believe this. There is more skill to be aquired in each of the 3 K`s & you need periodic guidance to improve. A black belt has done his her apprenticeship & will now be considered a craftsman. I`m sorry but I`m laughing at this one!! A shodan has more or less just finishes high school & is now ready to begin his/her post-secondary education. So in essence, ready tom begin his.her apprenticeship. I wouldn`t call anyone below 3rd dan a craftsman/journeyman & a 3rd dan is a new one at that. A fresh journeyman/craftsman still has much to learn & experience to gain, but he/she should be able to work on their own without supervision & able to do their own research. However he/she will still gain from the experience of others. In shotokan for example, at this level, you should be able to perform the basic 15 kata, but there is still a long way to go.. So, having touched briefly on this, let me say that in my opinion, a black belt is just a new begining.. Only now we understand the basics, so we should learn at a faster rate & have more fun... Osu Paul B What if a shodan had forty years experience, or was as good as a godan? Is he always to be considered an apprentice, because of his lack of interest in grades? Surely we should seek improvement, not advancement. Not impossible but rare. 40yrs as shodan & as good as a godan!! Most shodan are not exposed to the same training as someone with higher rank might be. For example kumite experience, advanced kata &/or finer points of said kata, bunkai, finer details ( breakdowns) of kihon or even terminology for that matter. Not that these folks aren`t out there but it`s rare. Then there is instructional ability, as an instructor you continuously better yourself, because you are analysing for not only yourself but a wide range of perception. You learn to look at things from different points of view, which ultimately help with your own development. Yes we should seek improvement & there comes a point where advancement isn`t as important, but I would have to question that long as a shodan. Here again are you always self training & relying on mirror sensei to critique you. How much time off has there been in that time frame. What makes you think that you are as good as an active godan? Don`t mean to sound harsh, but I am a bit skeptical!! Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 2, 2011 3:37:35 GMT
Tom's is an extraordinary story and would be a story worthy of any 30ish Karateka but when you consider his age it is inspirational if bordering on being somewhat 'Batty'. the guy trains like a 20 year old with much younger Karateka and then goes to national events and places in kumite and Kata sections and never seeks recognition but just returns to training as normal. when i get those 'frickin heck I'm too old for this sh*t!' feelings Tom is always my inspiration! It saddens me that this isn't noticed and hailed by the American powers that be!
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Post by tomobrien on Aug 3, 2011 2:43:54 GMT
I just thank God that I can keep goin at this pace. Boxing tonite! Jab, cross (the old 1-2), upper-cuts, combo's, snap-away, duck, bob & weave, slip, parry, foot-work & sparring. Man that kid Byron is a bull. The first two shots had me worried but about 5 body shots later & he slowed down Good thing. He's a stocky kid with a powerful punch. No AC in this dojo RUMBLE OLD MAN RUMBLE! Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 4, 2011 5:25:23 GMT
see what i mean Folks - Inspirational but batty - keep going yer old fool - love it!
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Post by stevenm on Aug 4, 2011 12:19:41 GMT
I did not compare myself to a Godan. I don't compare myself to anyone. I do try to emulate those whose ability i admire. Would not going through the grading process cause stagnation? I suppose that could happen if your instructor refused to teach you more advanced Kata/principles until you payed to be graded, then yes. If that happened to me, then i would question the motivation of the instructor. At our club, all senior grades are taught together, and taught the same things. Grade is not an indicator of standard, merely status.
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 4, 2011 14:29:42 GMT
That's one of the reasons I lost interest in grading, it made no difference to the training as we all get the same but becomes a distraction from learning as it's just a syllabus exercise, to aim at the next number up, whilst treading water in reality. May go for it this year however as I'm finally making (or attempting to at least) the improvements that may justify a step in level. Once I'm happy in my own mind that I'm worth it......... (starting to sound like a hair care commercial, which is ironic in it's own way )
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Post by Paul Bedard on Aug 5, 2011 3:27:51 GMT
O.K. I think that I understand how some of you feel & it kind of makes me more confused. ` Paying for grading` or `going up the syllabus ladder`. Do you or have you regularly attended tournaments, then I would have to assume that you have spent more on that than you would have on grading. Also judges in tournaments would be harder on you than examiners in grading. All in all either choice is another training experience. How we perform under pressure. Personally I chose to grade rather than try to get a trophy to sit on a shelf. But each to their own.. BTW I did a few tournaments. Just didn`t like what they brought out of me... Osu Paul B
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 5, 2011 7:54:23 GMT
It is easy to get cynical about gradings and tournaments I think. I myself have attended competitions where I have witnessed cynical"diving", questionable decisions and downright cheating! with reference to gradings, this is best illustrated by my brother-in-laws experience. He took his shodan under the association we were both members of at the time. After sucessfully passing on his first attempt, I was complimented by the chief instructor on the quality of my student and his attitude. Sometime after this I was forced to stop teaching for a while due to work commitments and he was constrained to train elsewhere. He joined a large Sotokan organisation and was told he would have to re-sit his shodan. He did this at considerable expense and failed. He was given no feedback as to why other than one word, "Form". This grading was conducted by a well-known senior instructor. A scant three months later he graded again, this time under a sensei most of us would consider to be the best and would be proud to have his name on our grading certificate. He passed with flying colours. he later confessed that due to holidays, a health problem and work he had only had 4 lessons between failing and passing. Money making scam? I leave you to draw your conclusions but it does not reflect well on a international organisation and my feelings are there should be defined criteria not what seems to amount to a lottery in some cases.
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 5, 2011 11:16:27 GMT
Personally, no, I have no real interest in tournaments. I had a go in the early days of my training (for the experience as much as anything else) but they hold no real interest for me. I think the "pressure" of a grading is probably what I was referring to as a distraction. I can only speak for my own (small) group on this but for us a grading is still very much a focus on a narrow syllabus and, although physically demanding and requiring the relevant sharpness (although this doesn't always appear to be the case ) of technique, it doesn't really add much to the learning experience. It's not the same as the pressure I (try to) put on myself for learning and self improvement and if I need the carrot of the next grade to motivate me then I've missed the point (that's in my own world view, obviously ;D). In fact I was told only this week that I may be grading in Novemeber and for me with what I am trying to do at present this very much comes under the heading of a "distraction". Perhaps that would be part of my definition of what a black belt is, someone who has learned the basics of their art to a workable level and has now moved on to the point of taking responsibility for their own continued learning and improvement (obviously under the relevant guidance, but now driven by their own self motivation).
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Post by Paul Bedard on Aug 5, 2011 20:50:03 GMT
And now we are at the stage when I say `I just love this site`. We can discuss & debate things & get to explain ourselves & our thoughts/beliefs. Kudos to Bob Davis, well said. `Grading can be a distraction`. I certainly have to agree with this. We can be expanding our knowledge & experience & as we get closer to grading we tend to narrow our curriculum to what we think the grading syllabus/requirements might be. Well said Bob!! Not that I have changed my mind about grading. I do believe that it has it`s place, but certainly not of the same opinion of how I once thought. In eight yrs I advanced three dan levels, then went twelve yrs before trying again. Technically it will be five yrs & most likely an invitation to grade will come, but I`m sure that I will wait longer.. I would like to make a point about the cost of grading however. Yes it is pricey for dan examinations, particularly when we add in the cost of dan registration. However if you think about at kyu level testing is about every 3-4 months. If you calculate the price of kyu testing @ 3 times a year, versus how often that you dan test, the price per year most likely isn`t that much different & most likely if you average it out, dan testing becomes cheaper.. It is just the larger lump sum that makes it harder to swallow. IMHO Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 5, 2011 22:05:08 GMT
We can be expanding our knowledge & experience & as we get closer to grading we tend to narrow our curriculum to what we think the grading syllabus/requirements might be.
Is that not the MAJOR problem with current Modern Shotokan - we are graded upon a limited arsenal and therefore our senior grades who have chased grades and adhered to timetables are limited in knowledge because of this narrow schooling.
yet you can have a third dan whom abonded gradings and trained for years and explored the full system whom is actually more knowledgable and skilled than his seniors - ridiculous it would never happen in other complicated fields of endevour!
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Post by kensei on Aug 8, 2011 16:16:41 GMT
We can be expanding our knowledge & experience & as we get closer to grading we tend to narrow our curriculum to what we think the grading syllabus/requirements might be.Is that not the MAJOR problem with current Modern Shotokan - we are graded upon a limited arsenal and therefore our senior grades who have chased grades and adhered to timetables are limited in knowledge because of this narrow schooling. yet you can have a third dan whom abonded gradings and trained for years and explored the full system whom is actually more knowledgable and skilled than his seniors - ridiculous it would never happen in other complicated fields of endevour! No the MAJOR problem with current modern Shotokan...is simply that we put way to much emphasis on rank! I have trained with guys from all sorts of martial arts and learned under some very good instructors in lots of different styles. I can tell you that Rank seems to be very very relevent. I have trained under 7th dans who were HORRIBLE and worked out with Nidans that taught me things that the 7th dan may have known, but chose not to teach. If people choose not to come and train with me because I am not a 71st Dan of the highest level or even higher ranking than the last politically connected guy they trained with, their loss...I have much better things to do in this life than worry about what some one says about my ranking. If people are so fixated on what paper I have hanging in my house then I probably dont want to train with them anyways...they are not working towards the same goals I have and have little use for them. those that leave the "rank worship" at the door will come in and work out in a very open minded work out that disguards alot of the old dogma about not learning applications, only focusing on sport ready techniques and avoiding grappling and more effective SD strategies because they dont meet the testing criteria. They may also learn the actual applicatons, or several applications for their Kata and not the diaritic drival that they learn at their old clubs to simply put a "face" on the kicky punchy stuff! Rank and what it takes to be a black belt...an inquisitive mind, a need to continue learning and the ability to learn what is true and what is basically crap! leave your ego at the door, being a black belt means you are willing to and have...TAKEN THE FIRST STEP! Thats all! I respect the time and effort that some put into Karate, I dont respect the entitlement that some feel and the cocky attitudes that that peice of cheap rice paper seems to impart on them!( and I dont mean all people, just some that worship their rank certs. like God himself forged them at the friggin burning bush!)
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Post by stevenm on Aug 8, 2011 18:06:40 GMT
To me, a Shodan knows how to do Karate. Now he just has to learn how to use it.
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Post by kensei on Aug 8, 2011 23:20:36 GMT
To me, a Shodan knows how to do Karate. Now he just has to learn how to use it. Great way of seeing it. Now, after the first step...who do we think should be judging when people are past that first step?? Some randome instructor or a persons personal instructor?
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 9, 2011 6:12:47 GMT
To me, a Shodan knows how to do Karate. Now he just has to learn how to use it. To me A Shodan knows enough to NOW learn how to DO karate and in doing so really learn how to use it - usually by doing more with less! I know many 50+ yr old Karateka who gained shodan as very fit and strong people decades ago and they move faster, hit harder and get hit less know than they ever did - as it should be of course! all very subjective I must add and some of those many generalisations that a million things can influence.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 9, 2011 6:19:04 GMT
I hope that I don`t sound disrespectful here, but I think that Superjock might be expecting a bit much out of a shodan with his 3 points of what a black belt should be able to do. Should be able to train on his own: Should be able to self-train yes, but for development, still needs to periodically train under someone more experienced. Else we get really good at our mistakes... Should know requirements & train on their own up to the big day? If the big day is testing to the next level, then no I don`t believe this. There is more skill to be aquired in each of the 3 K`s & you need periodic guidance to improve. A black belt has done his her apprenticeship & will now be considered a craftsman. I`m sorry but I`m laughing at this one!! A shodan has more or less just finishes high school & is now ready to begin his/her post-secondary education. So in essence, ready tom begin his.her apprenticeship. I wouldn`t call anyone below 3rd dan a craftsman/journeyman & a 3rd dan is a new one at that. A fresh journeyman/craftsman still has much to learn & experience to gain, but he/she should be able to work on their own without supervision & able to do their own research. However he/she will still gain from the experience of others. In shotokan for example, at this level, you should be able to perform the basic 15 kata, but there is still a long way to go.. So, having touched briefly on this, let me say that in my opinion, a black belt is just a new begining.. Only now we understand the basics, so we should learn at a faster rate & have more fun... Osu Paul B What if a shodan had forty years experience, or was as good as a godan? Is he always to be considered an apprentice, because of his lack of interest in grades? Surely we should seek improvement, not advancement. I know many who aren't interested in 'Grades' Steve I was one! Steve Cattle forced me to take Nidan cos he rightly suggested My Dan Grades were being held back for fear of Grading afore me - We forced one of our twenty year constantly trained Shodan's to grade recently - He was awesome and as you suggested could easily have achived a MUCH higher rank than the Nidan he gained! Good point Steve!
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Post by superjock on Aug 9, 2011 7:30:10 GMT
We forced one of our twenty year constantly trained Shodan's to grade recently - He was awesome and as you suggested could easily have achived a MUCH higher rank than the Nidan he gained! Good point Steve! This is the thing I have never understood about 'gradings', they don't actually grade you they just step you up a notch. If this guy was ''awesome'' as you say coupled with the fact that you know his training history why not put him up to the 'grade' that he warrants?
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Post by stevenm on Aug 15, 2011 18:17:46 GMT
Head office would not be happy with that! Imagine the lost revenue, jumping somebody from first to, say fourth Dan. That's not how to run a business... Also, if grade is a reflection of standard, not standing, who would win in a fight between Kanazawa, 5th Dan, and Kanazawa 10th Dan? My money is on the younger man.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 16, 2011 3:51:56 GMT
We forced one of our twenty year constantly trained Shodan's to grade recently - He was awesome and as you suggested could easily have achived a MUCH higher rank than the Nidan he gained! Good point Steve! This is the thing I have never understood about 'gradings', they don't actually grade you they just step you up a notch. If this guy was ''awesome'' as you say coupled with the fact that you know his training history why not put him up to the 'grade' that he warrants? I 'get' your point Andy but there are many reasons not least that Grades are incremental and He has had the opportunity to grade more regularly and hopefully now will. However, if very special circumstances warranted it I personally would consider granting higher grades were justified! With our group IT IS NOT about revenue as Steve suggested and I am the 'Head Office' in a sense working in close communication with the seniors in our group. it has worked well for several decades so why change it?
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Post by malk103 on Apr 30, 2012 20:35:37 GMT
We were talking about this topic tonight and I came out with this statement from within.....
When I was at 3rd Kyu it felt like I was on a race track and just on the last bend leading into the home straight towards the finish line, however the closer I got to the line I realised it was another starting line.
I passed Shodan last year and assumed it was the knowledge of the syllabus and the speed of delivery but there is a lot more to do with the attitude and the range of techniques. I don't agree with a system set along timelines, I would rather go for a grading after I think i'm ready, then when my Sensei thinks i'm ready, I might also go off and train with other clubs to seek other opinions. If that takes 5 years then fine. It's a shame that we don't have a general standard throughout Karate that decides when people are ready but that's possibly a can of worms for another time.....
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