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Post by grunners4 on Aug 18, 2011 13:56:58 GMT
Having one of those brain fart moments - I cannot think of one kata which includes soto uke! am I going mad?
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Post by barryives on Aug 18, 2011 14:28:03 GMT
Bassai dai
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Post by grunners4 on Aug 18, 2011 14:42:27 GMT
brain fart averted thanks Barry....interesting though that there are so few compared to uchi uke...
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 18, 2011 16:18:46 GMT
in addition to Bassai Dai:
Bassai Sho Nijushiho Unsu
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 19, 2011 1:06:52 GMT
Having one of those brain fart moments - I cannot think of one kata which includes soto uke! am I going mad? Brain fart moments can produce moments of revalation and resulting Paradigm shifts! Go look for Age -uke Soto Uke Uchi Uke Gedan Barrai and Shuto Uchi In advanced kata and I will bet you are large amount that if you look closely THEY are very possibly NOT what you thought initially that they were = basic blocks. Of course I have NO way of stating this as an absolute cos NO ONE Knows THE applications BUT with an open mind we can find so many brilliant uses that the Kata may be implying = IMPLICATIONS!
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Post by andyupton on Aug 19, 2011 4:30:50 GMT
in addition to Bassai Dai: Bassai Sho Nijushiho Unsu Where is the Soto Uke in Nijushiho ? Or Unsu for that matter ?
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Post by grunners4 on Aug 19, 2011 6:33:40 GMT
you beat me to it Andy I should have picked up Unsu straight away ( the turn after the haito and maegeri) but also a bit confused with Nijushiho....Bob?
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Post by grunners4 on Aug 19, 2011 6:35:23 GMT
Go look for Age -uke Soto Uke Uchi Uke Gedan Barrai and Shuto Uchi In advanced kata and I will bet you are large amount that if you look closely THEY are very possibly NOT what you thought initially that they were = basic blocks. why only in advanced kata Steve?
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Post by superjock on Aug 19, 2011 9:17:05 GMT
Gekkisai dai ichi & ni Seiyunchin Seipai Suparunpai Also any kata with gedan barai in it
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Post by kensei on Aug 19, 2011 12:37:47 GMT
Okay, need to learn to scroll down...had a momemnt with the Soto Uke in Nijushiho....I have been doing it for years and their I am in the hall at work doing it going..."No I knew no soto uke in the kata"...Felt like a moron...but got some extra Kata practice in!!!!
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Post by middleton on Aug 19, 2011 13:24:31 GMT
Good morning, Interesting discussion to start my work day. A component of the WTKO Kenshusei program is written papers. Sensei Amos assigned a paper to myself to name and detail all of the Uke in Shotokan Karate. It is not until you begin writing you realize the depths this assignment. Although some blocks in Kata can be referred to as Uchi, Soto, or Morote I believe that the application and intention goes deeper. In my opinion the two handed Soto Uke (If we are thinking the same spot) in Nijushiho is referred to Hasami Uke. Albeit it can be referred to as Soto on the surface it goes much deeper. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/
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Post by andyupton on Aug 19, 2011 15:39:42 GMT
Good morning, Interesting discussion to start my work day. A component of the WTKO Kenshusei program is written papers. Sensei Amos assigned a paper to myself to name and detail all of the Uke in Shotokan Karate. It is not until you begin writing you realize the depths this assignment. Although some blocks in Kata can be referred to as Uchi, Soto, or Morote I believe that the application and intention goes deeper. In my opinion the two handed Soto Uke (If we are thinking the same spot) in Nijushiho is referred to Hasami Uke. Albeit it can be referred to as Soto on the surface it goes much deeper. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/Nijushiho's Hasami Uke is a double Soto Uke...hmmmm ! Don't really know what to think about that one !
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Post by middleton on Aug 19, 2011 16:00:20 GMT
As clarification I personally do not feel that the Hasami Uke in Nijushiho is a double Soto Uke. I got the impression from previous postings on this thread that some members may have thought this to be so. I was attempting (although obviously unsuccessfully) to imply that although some blocks follow a specific trajectory (Outside, inside, and augmented) that their intended purpose could be deeper. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/
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Post by kensei on Aug 19, 2011 20:04:21 GMT
Now to throw a lug rench into things....some groups call the block that goes from outside to in and uses the foreamr as Soto uke and others as Uchi as it is traveling inside.....always confused the heck out of me!
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Post by middleton on Aug 19, 2011 23:15:05 GMT
Another relevant layer to our discussion. In my experience the only time that an instructor refers to Soto / Uchi Uke as James describes is Okazaki Sensei. I spoke to my senior and friend (Sensei Walter Crockford) a few years ago as to the reasons why Okazaki Sensei would refer to Soto / Uchi Uke as he does. He explained that Sensei Okazaki refers to the Anatomical Standing Position, that of a person standing with their thumbs outside. Thus Sensei Okazaki refers to the thumb side of the forearm as Gaiwan, and the little finger side as Naiwan. So if you were performing Uchi Uke (Gaiwan) you are performing outside forearm block. Soto Uke (Naiwan) would be inside forearm block. He further explained that other instructors refer to Naiwan / Gaiwan opposite to Okazaki Sensei, because "naturally" we stand with our thumbs towards our side, and our little finger outside. Personally I refer to Soto / Uchi Uke in the conventional way, as I believe most instructors do. I hope I have conveyed Sensei Crockford's explanation adequately. Interesting discussion. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 20, 2011 9:19:03 GMT
Where are the blocks in kata ? I have yet to find any apart from the initial preparation being a parry. The distance is wrong. ( sorry, just playing devils advocate.)
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Post by grunners4 on Aug 22, 2011 9:33:20 GMT
Jim here is video of GF doing what you say, actually doing both.... one defense is parry/strike while another is block and counter (distance way off). www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FxRfd_0mYsI see so often that people say it was the JKA that changed from -jutsu to -do and hence lost the original meaning, but even here is GF doing what is still recognizable as basic kihon kumite, so at the stage of this video (admittedly later in GF's life) the system was established.
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 22, 2011 10:23:04 GMT
No, I don't think I'm in the same spot for this one, personally I was thinking of the Tate Empi/Soto Uke-Gedan Tsuki/Gedan Barai sequence (repeated twice).
Although this is refered to (in my books at least) as Soto Uke and I've been taught it as a "block" I have to say I've never visualised it as such if used in the sequence as a whole, to me it implies something else entirely.
BTW, sorry for the late reply, been away from the computer for a few days.
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Post by grunners4 on Aug 22, 2011 12:36:23 GMT
Bob you beaut! Was never taught it as such or like you never visualized it as soto uke but you are quite correct - Best Karate 10 pg 122. I see it as more of a strangle or neck crank after the empi uchi....what does it imply to you?
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Post by andyupton on Aug 22, 2011 14:44:31 GMT
Nope sorry. I CANNOT agree with the Hasami Uke being a double Soto Uke in Nijushiho.
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Post by middleton on Aug 22, 2011 18:47:57 GMT
Then we both agree.
Kind regards, Scott Middleton
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 22, 2011 20:08:25 GMT
I haven't revisited this for a long while but what I had in my head when I did this was using the haishu uke to block an incoming punch (straight or swinging) and follow that through to grab/wrap the arm, pulling your opponent into the rising elbow under the chin. If you connect with the elbow all well and good, even if you don't the rising empi would still block a possible second head punch coming in with the free arm . From the tate empi I'd slip the striking hand behind the opponents neck and use the "soto uke" to pull the opponent in close whilst driving to punch into either the floating ribs or just forward of the arm pit, (although it's a single punch in the kata my personal view is while you have control you punch as many times as necessary to get the job done). I then visualise the gedan barai with the body shift in the opposite direction as pulling you opponent down and away from you. Apologies for the picture spacing, (mucked up the formatting somehow), but if you scroll down you'll get the idea
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Post by Bob Davis on Aug 22, 2011 20:09:30 GMT
P.S. If the format problem bothers anybody give me a shout and I'll take the pictures back out.
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Post by grunners4 on Aug 23, 2011 6:41:28 GMT
thanks for the pics Bob, that was pretty much the same as my thoughts...good stuff!
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 12, 2011 18:21:20 GMT
Go look for Age -uke Soto Uke Uchi Uke Gedan Barrai and Shuto Uchi In advanced kata and I will bet you are large amount that if you look closely THEY are very possibly NOT what you thought initially that they were = basic blocks. why only in advanced kata Steve? Good point but I wasn't being remiss - simply showing that once you grasp it in 'shall we say' more basic Kata (?) they can lead you to previously unimaginable things in more senior (?) Kata. But I wasn't clear about that so shall go beat myself with a Feather in repentance for my failure. I hope this explanation is sufficient for you Neil - I do like to help those whom don't get it at first! Touche yer bully LOL!
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Post by fleur on Sept 16, 2011 20:58:39 GMT
My understanding with the name of the blocks uchi & soto being reversed is due to where your lineage comes from. Japan refers to it as Soto & Okinawan schools refer to it as Uchi and vice versa. So it depends who your instructors, instructors were and where they came from as to the terminogly used. For example - Superjock when you have described soto uke in the katas you have given up for examples of when it is used, you are referring to 'inside to outside' block as these are Okinawan kata. However the shotokan guys soto uke is referring to 'outside to inside' as Japan based karate. So sometimes it can diffinately be a little confusing. Certainly is when you change styles and you have to adjust!
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Post by superjock on Sept 17, 2011 1:50:59 GMT
My understanding with the name of the blocks uchi & soto being reversed is due to where your lineage comes from. Japan refers to it as Soto & Okinawan schools refer to it as Uchi and vice versa. So it depends who your instructors, instructors were and where they came from as to the terminogly used. For example - Superjock when you have described soto uke in the katas you have given up for examples of when it is used, you are referring to 'inside to outside' block as these are Okinawan kata. However the shotokan guys soto uke is referring to 'outside to inside' as Japan based karate. So sometimes it can diffinately be a little confusing. Certainly is when you change styles and you have to adjust! Thanks Fleur......just to clarify, as my fomative training was in Shotokan I still use the outside to in to describe soto-uke. However these days I use the outward preparatory path as the block and the inward flight as the strike, either a hammer fist or a tekki-like backfist.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Sept 17, 2011 2:31:40 GMT
Hi guys. If you don`t mind I will throw my two cents worth in here. I wouldn`t know what the old Okinawan version/ description of ude uke would be, but I have been training for quite some time in the ISKF which is Master Okazaki`s org & I can asssure you that at least for the 25+ yrs that I have trained with them & everytime that I train with Okazaki Shihan that `Soto ude uke` is outside going inward & `Uchi ude uke` is inside going outward. Many times I have heard him refer to uchi uke simply as ude uke, but we have no confusion as to the names of the blocks. We have always used the best karate series & Master Nakayama`s Dynamic karate as our reference, so I do believe that we are on par with what most orgs would be calling these blocks. Sorry if I sound to matter of factly, but this is my experience of training with both Okazaki & Yaguchi Shihan`s since 1986.. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 17, 2011 13:16:56 GMT
'Ude' simply refers to the lower arm. 'Soto' refers to an 'Outside to Inside trajectory'. 'Uchi' simply means 'Inside' as in 'Uchi Desu' = 'Inside Student' but in this context it refers to an 'inside to Outside' trajectory. All as Paul B states above. 'Soto Uke' is the more commonly used but 'SotoUde Uke' is more grammatically correct. The differences that occur are simply Grammatical variations similar to many we have in the English language - 'It rained tody' or Today it rained'
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Post by makiwaraman on Oct 19, 2011 22:51:47 GMT
Hi, I'd just like to clarify.
Uchi can mean both strike and inside, for instance, the "uchi" in Uchi uke means "inside block" where as the "uchi" in shuto uchi means knife hand strike.
The pronunciation is the same, but the kanji differ, unfortunately the Japanese pronounciation doesn't mean a great deal unless you are aware of the kanji or the context, in this case it's difficult.
Ude also describes the arm, no specific part, anywhere from the wrist up to the shoulder, similar to ashi describing all of the leg from the hip down (including the foot).
Please understand that some of the terms in karate are not even used by everyday Japanese, and therefore don't necessarily have a literal meaning, many of the terms used in karate are archaic terms or if not are special words/Kanji, some how ever describe movements very simply and these are literal.
Hope this helps.
Maki
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