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Post by Dod Watt on Jan 18, 2012 22:27:13 GMT
What do you think of the concept of leaning karate over the internet for a fee?
I know my take on it, but what is yours, what is the advantages and what is the down falls.
Can it actually work as there is no one there to correct you, do you think you have the ability to know if you are correctly executing a technique, do you think it is a safe environment to train by yourself doing new things without supervision.
It would be good to hear everyone's take on this, as there seems to be a new culture arising, and it all seems to me to be a money venture.
How can things be corrected from hundreds or even thousands of miles away, if you cannot be seen.
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Post by malk103 on Jan 18, 2012 22:49:54 GMT
I know the internet well enough to not pay for anything on it, normally it can be found for free. I've viewed lots of video clips and found lots of items but some are good and some are very bad so there is no guarantees. I've used DVD/video clips as an aid inbetween training - it took me ages to grasp Tekki Shodan so a laptop setup in the Banana several times worked wonders - but not to replace Dojo training! It helped me to get the moves but not to perfect them (not that it's perfect yet!) Problem now is that i've moved to a house with a smaller Banana...... You need space to be able to do Kata at full power/speed. The only way it would come anywhere near working is the use of web cams but would be awkward and how could you demonstrate the use of power/techniques.
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Post by Gaz Lee on Jan 19, 2012 8:51:45 GMT
think web training should just be used for reference really, when unsure of something and cant get to a dojo to iron it out, certainly would never pay for it, plus ya dont get the same motivation as you do when entering the dojo, when i enter the dojo i know im there to work and get a sweat on, although i do another kind of internet research that loosens you up and has certainly strenghened my wrists ;-)
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Post by kensei on Jan 19, 2012 11:21:13 GMT
The current thinking is that you can watch someone do a Kata and no matter how far away you are...you can correct them. I think it will drop standards and lead to lots of watered down Karate.
I know one high level instructor who is offering Karate via internet right now, he uses some video conference program to watch and teach. I think he is a great guy but I just dont agree with it. How can you copy the feel of someone physically correcting you and doing it in seconds when you have to sit down and verbally only correct someone? It would be very frustrating for me.
Also, Like was already said, you can not copy the feel of walking into the Dojo and training. To be fair the instructor is only teaching an "Add on" to your existing Karate and you have to be I think a Purple belt to do this.
My point...fun thing to play with but should in no way replace your Dojo training.
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Post by malk103 on Jan 19, 2012 11:56:32 GMT
A recent example of many examples why Dojo is best....
One of the Brown belts was sloppy in turning in Bassai Dai, it's only when the Sensei took a stance in front of him and swept his front leg away (putting the student on his backside) did they finally get why the rear leg sweeps across with such power when you turn.
Obviously the student was an adult and could take a "gentle" sweep....
I still remember being knocked back by an effective Morote Uke by a guy half my size, the way I was initially doing it wouldn't have pushed a swing door open.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 19, 2012 12:47:13 GMT
Whilst I totally agree with James's comments above I would add the following: One needs to think about the various ways we 'learn' Karate and if you do you will come to understand that a full 'Learning' program falls into two main categories and these then contain sub categories. For now lets just concentrate on the 2 main categories - They are: Training - the actual physical (and subsequent mental) act of 'doing' Karate and separate to this we have Studying - the active pursuit of further and deeper knowledge about Karate. although separate activities they, of course can overlap, when, for example, you absorb information in a class or a personal training session. Both are hugely important and contain elements such as , for example, experiental learning, incidental learning, Kinesthetic absorbtion of informastion etc. therefore, in the context of 'study' I believe that distance learning could be productive. As a relevant point in my group (although a small organisation compared to many) I have Clubs and students in various areas of the UK. I often have phone or e-mail/facebook conversations with Instructors and Students about a very wide spectrum of different elements of Karate. sometimes this will involve diagrams and even film and the process has pronion to be very helpful. Especially so when i have just visited a club and the INstructor wants to double check something to ensure he/she is teaching it correctly thereafter. It has pronion to be particularly helpful (so they tell me ) for members whose club has only recently joined us - as i help them to bring thier Karate in line with our chosen methodologies (especially our fully arsenalled Grading require3ments). Therefore, i do believe that distance learning has possibilities and I would seriously consider using it if the person offering this Service is someone that I am confident about (Dave Hazard Sensei or Frank Cope as two examples out of many i could name) Sadly though I have yet to see an add from an instructor I would gladly sign up with!
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Post by kensei on Jan 19, 2012 13:33:29 GMT
Adding distance training to an ALREADY dojo focused training program is actually not a bad idea....its when you leave the dojo for the 'puter that you end up with watered down issues.
If a student lives in Iceland and the instructor they want to mirror lives in New York...well if you want to watch vids of them that is fine, some video confrences are okay, but you still have to get out and do the stuff wtih an instructor that can actually help out physically.
I am reminded of the TKD guys that had "Watch a video and tape yourself for a grade" stuff they sold. It was very popular..but did not produce lots of great instructors or students. The BJJ guys are doing that now, but I dont agree with it 100%.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 20, 2012 6:07:15 GMT
Totally agree James - the reason it works within our group is the fact that they all train with me at Dojo visits, weekend events and residential Courses throughout the year
Therefore - for us - it is an addition to our training, a reference and discussion point that ensures continuity within the group BUT that is all it is! It in NO WAY replaces the core Dojo training that is carried out week in week out.
ANother vital aspect of this contact between us that is immensely helpful to me is the feedback that i recieve as this allows me to learn and thus analyse how courses etc have impacted. I can then adjust our improve things in the pursuit of an ever evolving process of development
It just wouldn't work the other way around where the distance learning was the core.
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Post by kensei on Jan 20, 2012 13:28:45 GMT
It just wouldn't work the other way around where the distance learning was the core. I have actually seen as of late several BJJ instructors whom are teaching and sending out online training and then getting students as far away as Europe (aformentioned instructors are in the states) to send in tapes of them doing the techniques and then giving them grades in Jiu Jitsu. Now, I am not a BJJ guy, But how can this help the student, the art and the legacy of the art? Having said that the only person that benefits is the instructor collecting $$$$$ for the time he sits at home with his students. How can anyone expect to learn a style from 10,000 miles away? If you are doing what Steve does and teach his students but send them home with HOME WORK ( I knew he was a mean guy!!) then this is fine! I think its a fantastic aid to their learning and better than "Notes" they take after class. Combine training time, the video/web file ext, with home training, personal notes and courses and you have one hell of a training program!
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 20, 2012 13:43:31 GMT
You go steady James - YOU being complimentary to me? ?? But thank you for the comments and yes it does work well. and finally - Of course I am mean - Spare the Bokken and spoil the Karate student - a Famous Victorian saying!!! HAHA! Have a good day, you deserve one - being nice to me musta smarted like hell lol!
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Post by kensei on Jan 20, 2012 20:28:29 GMT
;D ;D
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Post by deckerdude304 on Jan 21, 2012 0:26:56 GMT
Hmm! Food for thought there Mr Watt, food indeed! I have only been practising in Shotokan Karate for about 9 weeks now, and although i like to watch Kanazawa Sensei putting the many different Kata through their paces on youtube, i do find that, IMHOP, there really is no substitute for the Dojo! There are several reasons for this though, and i am not sure, AS a beginner, that i can express myself of this subject very well, so please all, bear with me, because it is from the thoughts of a beginner!! There is a certain ''Presence'' found in a Dojo, (akin to a Church-place of worship, but in a Martial sense), of Old Masters who have come before and triumphed in adversity, not shown in any video or film. There is a sense of ''going back in time'' when being taught techniques and their applications in a particular Kata/Drill, as if those Masters KNEW that this was indeed the correct move to make. Again, not shown in any video. When i enter the two Dojo's i visit every week, i always feel as though i am on ''Hallowed Ground''! From the Bow upon entering, to the Bow upon leaving, and all in between, i always feel chastened, humbled, and just that tiny bit wiser than the last week i was there. The reverance i feel in our two Dojo's is enormous. I ''feel'' the Old Masters are THERE, watching over us, correcting us through our present Sensei's techniques-thoughts, sayings and actions, which are THEIR'S, from a time long gone by. Trying to find THAT in any youtube video would be like trying to find that proverbial needle in that proverbial Haystack! The ''Etiquette'' found only in the Dojo can only be glimpsed at on a video/film. I have several books by several Master's which contain many references to the Etiquette required in Dojo's from this ancient art of Karate, and i am sure many of YOU on this forum do to! Just my particular two cents worth only, and not particularly the thoughts of other people on this site, which IS the best! (Crawl crawl, creep creep!!!)
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Post by malk103 on Jan 21, 2012 8:16:34 GMT
Your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses Deckerdude, the fact that you are getting a good buzz during and after training adds strength to needing a Dojo atmosphere to train in.
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Post by vitruvius on Feb 21, 2012 3:46:45 GMT
I have had experience with distance learning and it can be very beneficial. If the student and instructor can communicate using a webcam and audio the results can be very positive. The instruction can be just as good as being in a dojo and even better in some ways considering it's a private lesson.
Just like anything, you get what you put into it! If you train hard and take no shortcuts, this type of training has it's merits.
For someone who does not have a suitable dojo nearby to train at, this type of training can get someone involved in the art that might have otherwise dismissed the thought. It's yet another avenue to get people on board!
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Post by ruestir on Feb 23, 2012 13:31:47 GMT
In the case where there is no easily accessible dojo, then some training is better than no training. However, I have to agree that being in the dojo is the best. Especially when it comes to teaching applications. There is no substitute for having a partner work with you who can provide graduated resistance as you work through applications. Also, for those of us who have added Sanchin to our training, the lessons contained within that kata require "hands on" by the instructor so the student can feel what they are doing either correctly or incorrectly.
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Post by vitruvius on Mar 1, 2012 14:08:55 GMT
Hi Alex,
I agree completely. I just don't think it's so cut and dry regarding distance learning. It's just like in life, you get out what you put into it. I've trained with people in a dojo who treated it as a social meeting and insisted on talking throughout the class and half performing techniques. I've also seen students who only trained via distance learning and they were really dedicated students with great technique.
If you are committed, you can make it happen!
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 1, 2012 14:47:12 GMT
I think there is value in distance learning. Is it as good as hands on? No, but it gives you the opportunity to get training you may not get otherwise, and could be made to work if approached intelligently.
We need to differentiate between "distance learning" and downloading or buying video/dvd. Nothing against DVD, I have a fair collection myself and I spend plenty of time on You tube looking at stuff, however my take on distance learning is that it should be fully interactive and a 2 way communication . The technology is readily available these days, even the most simple digital camera/phone offers perfectly acceptable video quality for capturing and sending clips. Skype is free and will also give you sufficient quality for two way interactive video conversation.
I don't believe it'd be as good as direct training and has the limitations imposed by training in isolation (sometimes there is no replacement for a partner). On the other hand I can see the situation where you may get more individual attention via this route than you would in a conventional dojo where you are just one in a crowd and on limited time.
It would require a good degree of commitment from the student and a good degree of honesty from the instructor but could be made to work. Perhaps by following the Open University model where guided distance learning and everyone getting together for hands on a couple of times a year is the norm and has been working a long time.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 11, 2012 0:16:40 GMT
I am in discussions with some people about launching a special site that will include the availability of on - line instruction for Shotokan Karateka. If I get the Team I want it will allow students to choose an experienced Instructor to specifically help them with an aspect of there training.
It will be a members only site with the facility for members to access archived Articles, Video Clips and other resources as part of the membership fee and then, if they desire to, they will be able to utilise private instruction via the site for a set fee per instructional period.
Like most things it is proving to be more technically complex to set up than initially presumed - to protect against piracy etc to secure the members financial investment isn't undermined by people simply stealing stuff and publishing it elsewhere as Copyright is notoriously hard to protect on the t'internet! but we are hopeful. ANyway, I will keep you informed as matters progress. OSU!
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Post by kensei on Mar 14, 2012 12:47:44 GMT
I spoke with Dingman sensei last night about this kind of distance learning and it was actually very funny. At 70 and never having been very tec savy he just shook his head after I explained the whole process and first said something like "you kids".. and shook his head. Now at my age that made me smile! But then he said something that kind of shook me a bit and made me think about the whole situation. he said (again paraphrasing) "its going to hurt Karate because the true nature of Karate training is the bond between Sensei and Student, how can you form that bond over the TV (Still not really getting the technology I think ). He had a point. Its fine to have a senior instructor like Sensei Brennerman or even...well Steve H...Correct your Jion via Skype but to go and train with Steve or Frank would be more than just a little "Move your arm this way" kind of thing. It would be an experience. I watch alot of You tube...I mean A LOT...to go and watch guys like Kagawa, Nishyama, Osaka, Ueki and probably hundreds of others perform and correct, teach and disect, but to be honest, the single time I was in the room with Ueki was a mind changing experience. The classes I took with Tanaka Sensei were 100 Times better than any You Tube video of him sparring. Point being is that technology does not replace biological beings and their training. If I were a jet setting kind of guy, I would be in Wales taking friend ship classes from Steve, going to Japan to train with the greats, chasing down seminars right left and center....and finding real ways to train and share with instructors. Now, having said that a Skype based training program with someone like Steve or any of the other instructors I mentioned would be valuable training tools, but the act of training with an instructor is the bonds that you form one on one. Trust me, anyone in the UK go and grab a class with Steve or Ohta or any of the masters near where you live. If Steve gets this course of technology up and running I might even jump on board and help out and try to share and learn from others, but the next time I read that a good instructor is in my area...I am jumping in the car and driving over to train....hopefully not forgetting my gi or to ask the wife first! LOL!!!
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 15, 2012 5:57:05 GMT
firstly I am very flattered by Kensei's comments but also agree with his points about the 'event' of actually taking a class from experienced Instructors - However, times move on and would suggest the following: For as long as mankind has had the ability to form written symbols that are understood by others (writing) he has passed information on in this way when actually being with those you wish to give the info to isn't possible. this includes info regarding things Martial and combat focused. Funakoshi Sensei and those senior Sensei that followed have all used books to distribute information and this is not questioned but is/was a form of distance learning. Then we had Video and that was used - again distance learning! Now we have the technology that the t'internet provides and it is merely the next step in the evolution from books to video etc BUT now we have something new and not available before - distance learning that is instant response and two way communication and I believe this is no different than book or video based distance learning but far more useful and personal BUT never a replacement for actual class attendances when possible. the technology is here folks and if Karate doesn't use it we WILL get left behind. That is my reason for taking a very serious look at it and the possibilities it opens up - evolve or become extinct in the long run
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Post by malk103 on Mar 20, 2012 16:14:35 GMT
Steve - when did you move to Wales? It's a shame that the Youtube clips can't be "controlled" to filter out the not so good ones. Or having a place of reference for your chosen style to ensure you are technically correct and haven't forgotten any techniques. I've got enough within driving distance to not need something online but not everyone has that I suppose.
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Post by vitruvius on Mar 20, 2012 17:06:43 GMT
Hi Steve,
I wish you the best of luck setting up this site, and will certainly look into it once it's completed.
Again, nothing is better than in person training but let's be honest, distance learning via Skype is about as close as you can get. Not to mention, the one on one attention that you don't always receive in a large class.
It's certainly the future in communications, and should not be ignored or quickly dismissed.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 21, 2012 3:44:41 GMT
Thank you Tim, My aim for the site is for it to be a very thorough reference source for Shotokan Karateka with articles, Video, interviews and training Guides available to the members. In addition there will be tutorials that include information for Karate Instructors to assist them in developing thier teaching skills based on latest research and the advice of Instructors whom have 'taught' Karate professionally for several Decades. All of this will be available just by Joining the site. However, in addition to this members will be able to book interactive Live tutorials with the Sites resident Instructors Covering any Karate subject that the member would like advice and instruction on. Further to this site members will be able to attend 'members only' Residential Courses with the Sites resident instructors. Membership will be open to all and is intended to be an additional membership irrelevant of your Organisation Membership. We hope to create a network of Shotokan Karateka that are interested in improving their karate journey and your core affiliation to 'whatever' organisation will be an irrelevance - all we ask is a good attitude, a friendly approach, an open mind and a desire to contribute to the ongoing development of Karate. As you can imagine this is going to be a considerable task to put together but i am determined to get it done. I would sincerely welcome any ideas that you or other OSS Members have that you feel would enhance the site - including any 'desires' you have in terms of Site content or functioning. Thanks! As you can imagine the site will have rules etc but these are aimed at protecting site content and ensuring members 'behave' Again any ideas are very welvcome
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Post by genkaimade on Mar 22, 2012 14:55:57 GMT
Again any ideas are very welvcome If, every two weeks or so, a member were to volunteer to write an article on a point of their choice, very quickly a huge amount of easily accessible in depth knowledge could make itself available!
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 22, 2012 17:20:29 GMT
Again any ideas are very welvcome If, every two weeks or so, a member were to volunteer to write an article on a point of their choice, very quickly a huge amount of easily accessible in depth knowledge could make itself available! Are you talking of the OSS Site Alex? that would indeed be a very interesting coolection of various Karateka's experiences - why don't you start it of and write an article for the OSS site about a valuable and positive Karate Experiences as a young man moving up the ranks As for the Web site I am prposing to launch it could also be a valuable resource - NICE ONE ALIX!
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Post by genkaimade on Mar 23, 2012 13:41:16 GMT
If, every two weeks or so, a member were to volunteer to write an article on a point of their choice, very quickly a huge amount of easily accessible in depth knowledge could make itself available! Are you talking of the OSS Site Alex? that would indeed be a very interesting coolection of various Karateka's experiences - why don't you start it of and write an article for the OSS site about a valuable and positive Karate Experiences as a young man moving up the ranks As for the Web site I am prposing to launch it could also be a valuable resource - NICE ONE ALIX! Hi Steve, I will start writing after training this evening provided nothing gets in the way ^_^
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 25, 2012 12:09:21 GMT
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Post by vitruvius on Apr 9, 2012 12:52:46 GMT
I also wanted to share with you folks that I've been taking private lessons with Shihan Kousaku Yokota via distance learning since last November. The lessons have been very helpful, and have proved how effective this type of training can be. This training is offered through Skype which is free and fairly reliable. The lessons are shaped around a syllabus that you help create, which allows you to focus on areas where you need improvement. You're expected to stretch and warm up prior to the lesson, which allows you to jump right in once the lesson begins. Shihan Yokota's attention to detail is second to none, and he often catches mistakes or bad habits that you didn't even realize. He is extremely knowledgable and very approachable. Through this training I've been able to refine kihon and kata as well as learning a number of stretching exercises that Shihan Tetsuhiko Asai had developed. This is a great chance to not only learn basic JKA karate as taught in the 70's and 80's, but also delve into Asai Ryu Shotokan Karate and all the additional material that comes with it such as exercises and unique katas. Information regarding these lessons can be seen on the WJKA site seen here: www.wjkahq.com/4-D-4-november%202011.htmI hope this helps our members! Kind Regards,
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 9, 2012 13:40:25 GMT
Nice one Tim!
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Post by marie on Apr 11, 2012 22:07:03 GMT
I don't think it's a good idea personally. I'd rather join a club just to have that reassurance that I'm being trained by a professional that knows what they're doing. Don't get me wrong, I'm only a purple belt white stripe, but I do believe that it's key to learn to precision. If you're judging by what someone is doing over the internet, you're not getting the full gist of it - you're simply trying to execute the move as you see it which may not be correctly.
Without someone to instruct and correct you then you'll be making mistakes left right and center. Often the reason for learning the art is in order of self-defence, and I don't think it's right that you believe you can handle yourself when really that may not be the case at all.
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