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Post by fujicolt on Feb 1, 2012 11:04:41 GMT
Not quite sure I am understanding your question Alan - of course blocks work when appropriately utilised - as do the other de3fensive movements such as parries, sweeps, traps etc - as with all things in Karate it is about making the correct choice in the given situation and then it is about timing, distancing, the 5 stages of the techniques, speed, mindset etc. the list is long and is a case of a synergistic process producing desired results. if the above ain't valid what the heck are we practising this stuff for
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Post by malk103 on Feb 1, 2012 13:10:51 GMT
I've questioned myself a few times as to using a few blocks in reality, the first time I was shown the X block against a kick I suspected that unless you had arms like Popeye then you would end up with a broken wrist or two - that move also leaves your head unprotected? I can see a lot of blocks working to divert an attack, just enough to stop it hitting you and give you room to counter maybe. I prefer to look upon most blocks as close up strikes, but then i'm still at the stage of trying to turn my training into useful applications.
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Post by vitruvius on Feb 1, 2012 16:49:19 GMT
Thank you, Alan for starting this discussion! I agree that most blocks can work in a self defense situation. All the fights that I've witnessed and been involved in when I was younger (unfortunately) usually involved a block of some sort. All the fights were quick, lasted seconds and usually were a quick exchange of blocks, dodges and strikes. An abbreviated form of age uke and chudan uchi uke seem to be the most effective. That being said, I believe there are a few blocks in Shotokan that wouldn't be regularly utilized in a self defense situation: chudan soto uke and juji uke being just a few. I've never seen a kick used in a fight unless one person was on the ground (which was more of a stomp), which leaves juji uke on the back burner. Having enough time to set and execute a chudan soto uke would also be very difficult unless the timing was right. Overall, blocks can be effective especially against the typical roundhouse punch and even against the two handed push or one handed grab. The question is, if you can't move quick enough to evade an attack, what else do you have to work with? This is just based on my experience! Regards, Tim
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 1, 2012 17:16:41 GMT
I would respectfully suggest that the problem isn't Blocks it is the question posed - Do Blocks Work? Far to vague and Non-specific. It is like asking - Do medicines work? It is ALL contextual and I would suggest the only real way to answer such a general question as the one posed would be a general answer along the lines of the one i posted above. Also - am a little confused as to what some of you think a 'block' actually is. Many of the defensive movements are not blocks at all and are either Parry's , sweeps, interceptions etc. In fact very few are, in the true sense, blocks but through poor instruction or lack of understanding of the 5 stages they are wrongly thought to be. Gedan Barrai being the obvious. AGe UKe, Soto Uki, Uchi Uke can be utilised as blocks but when applied in the classical Gohon Kumite Format they are definitely not when dealing with an incoming Oi Tsuki and are all interceptions of flightpath to redirect IF performed properly. Returning to the Do medicines work point - YES of course they do if prescribed after clear diagnosis and then given in correct doses at the correct time. Defensive techniques are the same - they should be chosen after a 'diagnosis of the 'problem' and then applied at the correct time, distance etc. If we aren't going to analyse specific techniques in specific contexts - the question is mute because it has no specific answer as it is too vague. Please re-read my earlier answer - cos if defensive techniques do not work then what are we studying them for - of course they work IF you understand them and practice them! However, as i have stated elsewhere - there are no wrong or daft questions here as they all create debate and i think this thread has revealed several things that may be useful for some of you to explore a little deeper
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 1, 2012 17:18:10 GMT
Right! Got to comment on this one! If you have an enlightened instructor who can make the transition from very basic blocks( thats strictly kihon, age-uke, soto-uke etc) to making the principle behind the block work, then yes they work ( for a given value of "work"). However, if not , then it all depends on the distance between you and your opponent and if it is very close, eg. grappling range then BASIC blocks cant work as there is not enough reaction time. But, if you are able to apply the principle and have an understanding of the role of the hikite hand then it is untrue that blocks dont work. Oh and as for juji-uke, you can make it work especially on punches just by adjusting the timing. One hand should contact the limb slightly ahead of the other as a parry and the other to trap. So if you extend one hand like hikite for Age-uke to parry closely followed by crossing the other hand on top you should be able to get this to work. Same principle can be applied to gedan.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 1, 2012 17:44:05 GMT
agree (in principle) Jim but you are attempting to give specific answers to a vague question and thus (not your error - the questions vagueness) your points could be added to, challenged or disagreed with and as stated if applied in the classic sense age Uke, Soto uke and Uchi Uke aren't even blocks. 'The role of the hikete hand' didn't realise it only had one Jim (Jim's a friend of mine folks - he knows I am winding him up teehee - he knows Hikite has a multitude of uses!)
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 1, 2012 18:53:07 GMT
Good evening Mr Hyland! For some reason to say "The roles of the hikite hand" seemed a tad unweildy! I would not post on here at all if I thought everyone would automatically agree with me!Ha Ha
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Post by vitruvius on Feb 1, 2012 19:36:29 GMT
I don't think this question is vague at all...
The question is, do blocks work?
Have you ever used or seen them used in a real self defense application?
Discussions like these can go in circles for days (as they usually do), but the question remains:
Have blocks worked for you outside of the dojo?
Can anyone provide examples without going into "theory"?
I appreciate any feedback!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 1, 2012 20:01:21 GMT
I have only ever used a "block" as a joint attack, I have used age-uke but not as a block and have used shuto to trap and pull on to the knife hand. So at the risk of being vague or evasive, I have used part or whole of the technique but not as a block. I have used a sort of manji-uke as a throw.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 1, 2012 21:45:34 GMT
I don't think this question is vague at all... The question is, do blocks work? Have you ever used or seen them used in a real self defense application? Discussions like these can go in circles for days (as they usually do), but the question remains: Have blocks worked for you outside of the dojo? Can anyone provide examples without going into "theory"? I appreciate any feedback! the question is indeed vague as i have attempted to explain several times now and you, Tim, have actually pronion it to be so by having to put foward a completely different set of Questions to clarify what it is your asking people to comment upon. 'Have you ever used or seen them used in a real self defence application?' IS two questions that, unlike the original Question 'Do blocks work?' are at least a tadge more specific and then you add the further, similar but still different enough to be deemed so, question: 'Have blocks worked for you outside the Dojo?' but here you make a strange comment and state - 'But the question remains: 'Have you ever used or seen them used in a real self defence application?' How can 'the' question remain when you have changed it from it's original vague content to aq more specifically worded one? Please not only read the threads carefully and then re-read your own post carefully Tim because you kinda screwed up your own point and in doing so made it have quite a disagreeable 'feel' to it. Furthermore, the thread was far from going in circles and several forwarded valid and interesting points - some from a position of considerable experience - Jim Luke for example - and such a process is desired here because it creates healthy, usually friendly debate and discussion. So with respect Tim - if you want specific answers do, as you have done and ask specific questions. turning now to your questions - may I ask what you deem to be blocks as that would help us to be even clearer in providing the info you reguest. I ask this because there appears to possibly be some confusion and all defencive techniques may be being termed 'Blocks' when, as I took the time to point out to be helpful to those not understanding this, many are not blocks, the majority by a long way in fact. but to try and answer you I can state that I have used and seen blocks, parries, sweeps, interceptional techniques etc used in real life violent techniques consistently and succesfully for over 4 decades - they have all been applied appropriately to their given situation and I would suggest that any Martial Art dealing with real life violence - no rules etc - would be hugely diminished without them - Oh and to follow your request for now - that isn't a theory as I am sure you would understand - tis just a simple and obvious fact Hope i have been clear and not vague and you found my comments helpful
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Post by vitruvius on Feb 1, 2012 22:21:21 GMT
I didn't screw up any point, Steve. I was simply trying to stimulate some discussion without being overly critical of someone's attempt to ask a question. This would be one of many reasons why I do not post responses in forums - many people seem to over analyze people's words and twist and rearrange them until it suits their point. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. Your comments were helpful. Thank you!
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 1, 2012 22:40:10 GMT
whoa Tim - be fair now you did kinda screw up - just read it and if anything it kinda felt like you were giving people a telling off! Noone was overly critical of 'someone's attempt to ask a question' and i resent the implication. I reaqlly do think you need to go back and re-read the whole thread carefully especially what you write. Tim I haven't twisted or rearranged your words to suit my point and your thinly veiled accusation is - well shall we just say Unfair If you re-read carefully you will see I quoted you exactly and commented to verify and support my point/s - it's called debate and there is absolutely no need for you to do exactly what you have wrongly accused I and others of. Just chill - please post regularly and enjoy it - even strong debate cos here thatt is what it is!
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Post by vitruvius on Feb 2, 2012 1:33:00 GMT
Ok, point well taken. I can see how this question was vague as presented but was later modified! I certainly didn't intend to tell anyone off! Anyway, how about we narrow this question down a bit and take gedan barai for example. Does it work? What applications could it be used for such as a strike, as sometimes explained during bunkai demonstrations of Heian Shodan during the initial move? I'm sorry, could you also explain the 5 stages that you refer to? This is an interesting discussion as it makes you really think about why we train these "blocks". I appreciate any help!
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Post by malk103 on Feb 2, 2012 11:56:55 GMT
Just thinking out loud as i don't have the fighting or Karate experience of others.... If I was doing freestyle Kumite with members of my club then most of them I would attempt to block a straight punch with Age Uke - not a perfect Kihon example - but a quick movement as both arms would already be around shoulder/head hieght in freestyle. Although one particular member is a large bloke with very big and powerful arms - when sparring with him it's better to move out the way as an Age Uke is likely to have little effect unless you get it just right. So I would say yes it depends on the size of the attacker. Other applications could be trying to grab an arm and using Age Uke on their elbow or chin. As Gedan Barai was mentioned, if a big bloke was to kick at me then I would be (hopefully) more inclined to move, or maybe use Gedan to help push myself sideways away from the kick whilst looking for a counter attack (or to legit!). I think in Empi Kata it was mentioned that the Gedan Barai was used as an attack towards the groin area. From another source i've read it would be more effective as a downward strike against the head if you had manipulated the attackers head lower. I think in Heian Shodan Bunkai a suggested application of the 2nd/3rd/4th move was to throw an attacker as you turn 180 degrees and then strike their head. Something else i've learnt with blocks is that they are 100 percent more effective if using the whole body, especially the hips.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 2, 2012 13:19:10 GMT
Ok, point well taken. I can see how this question was vague as presented but was later modified! I certainly didn't intend to tell anyone off! Anyway, how about we narrow this question down a bit and take gedan barai for example. Does it work? What applications could it be used for such as a strike, as sometimes explained during bunkai demonstrations of Heian Shodan during the initial move? I'm sorry, could you also explain the 5 stages that you refer to? This is an interesting discussion as it makes you really think about why we train these "blocks". I appreciate any help! Hey Tim Nearly 30 years ago to assist my teaching of Karate I drew the conclusion that Students often struggle with developing thier techniques due to the fact that they have difficulty in breaking the technique down into component parts and then further difficulty in knowing the whats, why's etc that need to be focused upon within those component parts. There also was not (and often still isn't in a lot of teaching) any kind of simple formula to create a uniform approach to the required detailed study, that would be accurate, undeniably true, easy to remember and easy in permitting the Teacher or student to explain, understand and then explore in more detail the component parts of Every Technique - punch block kick, strikes, throws etc etc I therefore came up with a solution and wrote about it in Trad Karate. It is quite simple, it isn't theory but fact and it is easy to remember: Every technique has 5 stages to it! Once understood an INstructor or student can use the formula to help them focus on each stage, improve them and then create a synergistic overall improvement when the technique is performed fully. Also, this formula also helps you to understand not only the what to do at each stage but the why to do and thus can help with matters such as timing, distancing, speed, angle of usage etc. Some can at first get a little confused with the formula - especially so when techniques are formed in combination with others and things interact - if you have this prob just let me know and I'll help - this formula works, has been decades tested and is easy to remember. the five stages are: 1. Initiation/Start point The point from which the technique is launched and how it is launched - all the do's don't etc can be explored. 2. Outward flight Path Everything that happens during the transition to target! Again Do's and Don'ts caqn be identified 3. Impact/connection an opportunity to study and understand this vital stage of every technique 4. return flight path a freguently neglected stage that deserves full attention. 5. Finish the completion of the said technique that is vitally important in terms of do's and don'ts hope this helps. i'll post later to discuss Gedan Barrai (which isn't a block !! tis, as it is named: a sweep). hope the above helps.
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Post by malk103 on Feb 2, 2012 14:27:39 GMT
Steve - it would be great if you could do an example of the 5 stages with an actual block like Soto Uke. It might be a pain to express in words when it could be shown a lot easier but could help fully understand what the 5 stages are all about. Only if you have time obviously.
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Post by vitruvius on Feb 2, 2012 14:38:00 GMT
Thank you, Steve for illustrating those 5 stages. This has me really giving some thought to all the basic "blocks" that are taught at the lower levels. I would love to see that soto uke breakdown that malk suggested!
Speaking of which, when giving some more thought to soto uke and it's applications, the kenpo style uses an outward block that is similar to the starting position of soto uke. If this outer block was utilized, which has the setting hand lower and more outside the body, it could be quickly used as a counter attack. I suppose this could be one of the many ways blocks become strikes!
Thank you, Alan for illustrating those thoughts on soto uke. I've been trying these out and they seem rather useful. Perhaps I should look into the material published by Abernathy?
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 2, 2012 21:00:02 GMT
Tim - i did giggle as it appears you have changed the question/s again!! we now appear to have moved from the 'Have you used or seen blocks used in SD?' to 'Have you any suggestions on alternate uses/applications of defensive technigues?' (which appear to have all been lumped under the term 'Blocks' here! and it is important to understand that they are not But after that little tease of you I strongly suggest the following in your explorations: Remember they ARE NOT all blocks and this must be understood (REALLY understood in minute detail) in order to grasp and master how they must be aqpplied. then when looking for alternate apps/uses be very conscious of the following: 1. does the technique travel outside to inside inside to outside up to down down to up straight out circular motion diagonal motion etc etc 2. be very conscious of the five stages to assist exploration of alternate uses - such as the excellent and very applicable (trust me it has saved my skin many a time) Secondary Blocking Process. Gedan Barrai, Shuto Uke, Uchi Uke (for example) are excellent and need little or no adjustment to employ the rather advanced but very efficient secondary blocking process. 3. Be very aware of how the 'chamber position' can provide a multitude of alternate uses! Use the 5 stages formula to explore this. 4. Be conscious of the fact that the classical 'Hikete' (opposite arm returning to the side of body IS NOT necessary or essential in actual application and therefore can be considered in the light of what that arm can be used for - a countless number of possibilities! 6. remember that all can be used as attacking techniques as well - and yes I mean ALL. Sorry Tim but I have tried to help but cannot go into real detail as this stuff is all in my book which is in final publishing negotiation stage now. I have posted lots of extracts here for you all but sorry - you'll have to buy the book now or my publisher is gonna have a dickyfit!! Hope the above useful and i will answer any questions you have but expect short answers (and then buy the book LMAO!
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Post by deckerdude304 on Feb 2, 2012 21:41:56 GMT
Mind if i come in on this, as a lower ranker!?! I've been avidly reading these thread posts from you all--(you all make such good reference material, and are a invaluable resource in my studies, so please don't take it the wrong way!!)--and the first point i would like to make is that of speed, or rather the lack of it! It seems to me that, outside of the Dojo, or away from our homes, great speed is of the essence in an encounter withn an assailant, or assailants. This is pointed out by alan, when he mentions fitness levels, eg, speed. I firmly believe that we can never have enough speed in a confrontation and i am so glad that in the Shotokan Style, the speed is 'ramped up' in every session, (or so it seems to me anyway!) to be ready for that fatal day when we may have need of it. (Incidently, i would be much obliged if any one has any home made 'speed drills' that they would be willing to pass on, as an extra resource you understand!!) My second point, on the thread, is about the blocking, but in particular the 'Gedan Barai' block. I have scoured Sensei Masatoshi Nakayama's 'Dynamic Karate' tonight for HIS correct interpretation of ''Gedan Barai''. It is, according to him in his book, a ''Gedan Uke'', or a ''Downward Block''. Nowhere does he say that it is a sweep, but i suppose it COULD be used as a sweep in certain circumstances and in certain applications.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 2, 2012 22:30:23 GMT
Barrai = sweep when translated as in Ashi Barrai. Gedan Barrai does not block the flight path of the incoming technique - No it sweeps it to the side. Just think it through. Gedan BARRAI! when Gedan Barrai does drop on top of the Mae Geri and 'stop' block it that is due to incorrect chambering resulting in incorrect outwaqrd flight path and contact - a dangerous situation given the inbalance between leg size and potential power and your weaker arm. Get along if I am teaching near you and Ill bet you any amount you wish that I can show you irefutably that gedan barrai is a sweep and not a block - study the 5 stages - you'll see. or google translate Barrai I cannot emphasize enough the importance of understanding what is a block, what is a parry, sweep, deflection, scoop etc etc because they all require different and important components in their individual 5 stages to ensure success. I promise guys it is NOT me being pedant5ic this stuff is important and I merely trying to help. and yes - I do understand that universally the term 'block' is used to describe all but WE are supposed to be mastering an art and that means knowing the difference and why they are different! I have my own Dojo here on the side of the hill at back of our house - who is up for coming to visit one weekend and Ill show you these things I babble on about! Ill be nice to yopy and won't bite HONEST! LMAO All are welcome.
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Post by malk103 on Feb 2, 2012 23:32:50 GMT
Hey Deckerdude, one of the amazing parts of learning Karate are a few realisations along the way, early on we are told about several "blocks" when learning Kihon, but around Yellow/Green belt level either realise or are taught that some (all) of the blocks have other uses and can be used to strike. Later on around Purple level the penny dropped that every move can have different meanings or applications. Then at Brown belt level the eye opening Bunkai realism kicks in, a lot of these basic moves can be applied as close up strikes, pushes, sweeps etc. Realising that most Kata are teaching us defence close up rather than at arms length. As i've just got past Shodan a whole new learning path has opened up in front so I suspect a lot more of what Steve talks about will start making sense.... As for weekends, i've just initiated a monthly meet up and have a couple interested so far - although one wants to do Kata and the other Kumite only - if this acorn grows then I will be asking you for dates of when you are free for us to come to yours or you to us.
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Post by nathanso on Feb 3, 2012 0:12:55 GMT
I have scoured Sensei Masatoshi Nakayama's 'Dynamic Karate' tonight for HIS correct interpretation of ''Gedan Barai''. It is, according to him in his book, a ''Gedan Uke'', or a ''Downward Block''. Nowhere does he say that it is a sweep, but i suppose it COULD be used as a sweep in certain circumstances and in certain applications. Do not get hung up by "label disease," especially when it is combined with inaccurate translations. Don't forget that "uke" doesn't really mean block but receive/reception. That can make a big difference in how you view and use techniques. As the late physicist Richard Feynmann said, there is a big difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something.
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Post by deckerdude304 on Feb 3, 2012 21:59:31 GMT
I wish to thank fujicolt, malk103 and nathanso for enlightening me on this subject! I appreciate your input about the subject matter, especially YOU malk103 in showing me the 'steps' that are taken and the realisation WITHIN those steps about what is actually IN the Karate we practise when we get to play with the next set of steps. Often we beginners get things wrong, as did you guys when you were beginners too i dare say, but for me its the 'putting it right' and the learning of the moves, steps, foot, hip, strike and block work that is interesting, especially when it comes from seasoned veterans like your good selves, and of course my Sensei's. Once again, thank you all.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 3, 2012 22:30:40 GMT
Hey Deckerdude, one of the amazing parts of learning Karate are a few realisations along the way, early on we are told about several "blocks" when learning Kihon, but around Yellow/Green belt level either realise or are taught that some (all) of the blocks have other uses and can be used to strike. Later on around Purple level the penny dropped that every move can have different meanings or applications. Then at Brown belt level the eye opening Bunkai realism kicks in, a lot of these basic moves can be applied as close up strikes, pushes, sweeps etc. Realising that most Kata are teaching us defence close up rather than at arms length. As i've just got past Shodan a whole new learning path has opened up in front so I suspect a lot more of what Steve talks about will start making sense.... As for weekends, i've just initiated a monthly meet up and have a couple interested so far - although one wants to do Kata and the other Kumite only - if this acorn grows then I will be asking you for dates of when you are free for us to come to yours or you to us. I am so sorry I haven't been making sense but PLEASE as you used the path analogy - view it like this - we are both on the Path/Way but i set out a lot earlier - thus i am higher up the hill, can see more and have had longer to 'gather' things along the way. Keep walking the view up here is great and available to anyone if you keep walking!I hope you get my point
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Post by deckerdude304 on Feb 3, 2012 22:49:56 GMT
THAT makes sense, a good point indeed! I like walking too!!
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 3, 2012 23:43:07 GMT
yer dozy sod - i did laugh. I seriously I hope that you and all the newcomers realise that if us old timers bring something up that seems nonsense to you - please remember that it probably woulda seemed even more nonsense to us at your stage (1970's karate was so basic and (now we know) wrong) it was, in hindsight, quite sad in many ways but marvellous in so many others. but here WE are so many decades later and (on this site I assure you) we are trying to help. so: argue away, ask questions if unsure BUT at all times keep in mind that there just might be a lot of sense in our tried and tested stuff that you may (now) feel is nonsense. Tis quite simple - just ASK and if unsure ASK Again!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 4, 2012 12:13:29 GMT
I think the problem of our perception of "blocks " arises from the fact that Shotokan is often portrayed as a a "hard " style, as being very linear in its application and is often practised in a kind of stop-start fashion as in block then punch. If adapted to a more flowing style and all the elements that go into the movement we will call , for want of a better word, a block, are analysed as each having function and purpose it then opens up a myriad of applications. This is why rather than trying to remember hundreds of responses to a multitude of scenarios, it is easier by far to learn the principles, which can then be applied to any given situation. When utilising a block , we almost always involve both hands, often to intercept one of our opponents limbs. Chinese martial arts call this "husband and wife hands" as an indication that not only are they meant to be working together but backing each other up. If treated just as a block or an interception of a single limb then that is obviously flawed as you leave your opponent a free hand whilst both of yours are busy. This has to indicate some measure of control offered by using two hands, as in pulling your opponent into your technique or trapping the limb or used as a datum point for your following strike. Sweeps should be performed vigorously to affect balance and the role of blocks in this cant be over-emphasised. So , within the block we should have the option to redirect, unbalance, trap, deflect, pull, push,throw,apply pressure,escape, move in....well this list goes on but I think it becomes obvious that block is misleading and inadequate as a description!
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 4, 2012 18:19:15 GMT
Here Here!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 4, 2012 19:06:19 GMT
Hello to all
Does anyone practice Hente in their training? now that tells you if your blocks work!! works really well with Tai Sabaki.
For those who have not heard of this term it is when you use the same limb, be it an arm or a leg to block and strike with. Sensei Kase was a great advocate of Hente.
Check out Spencer Tracy in the film "Bad Day at Black Rock" for an example of it being applied.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by vitruvius on Feb 4, 2012 21:35:51 GMT
Steve,
Can you elaborate on how Shotokan of the 1970's was so wrong? This intrigues me as we know the art should be both traditional and evolving.
If it was indeed wrong why was it taught to us? Do you think it was a challenge presented for us to figure out on our own as we advanced in our training?
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