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Post by andyupton on Feb 19, 2012 17:52:40 GMT
Looking in "Best Karate", Yori Ashi and Suri Ashi are both translated as "Sliding the feet". But what is the correct term for the following foot movement - You are in Kamae in Zenkutsu Dachi (Left foot forward). You move your back foot up so it is under your hip, and then you move your front foot forward with, say, Gyaku Tsuki I hope I have explained myself !
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 19, 2012 19:50:05 GMT
I always understood ashi sabaki to be yori ashi where the stance is maintained whilst sliding, suri ashi the front stance is elongated the term you are looking for is tsugi ashi ( like a half step or half-beat)? Hope this is correct and if not I am sure someone out there knows the correct terminology.
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Post by andyupton on Feb 19, 2012 20:09:15 GMT
I always understood ashi sabaki to be yori ashi where the stance is maintained whilst sliding, suri ashi the front stance is elongated the term you are looking for is tsugi ashi ( like a half step or half-beat)? Hope this is correct and if not I am sure someone out there knows the correct terminology. "Tsugi Ashi" rings a bell. I'm sure Sensei Dave Hooper taught us it at one of our Association Summer Courses at Bangor University in the 80's
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 19, 2012 20:31:33 GMT
Hi Andy
To simplify things if you are in say left foot forward Zenkutsu Dachi and you move the back foot towards the front foot (contraction of the stance) this is Suri Ashi and if you move the front foot forward (expansion of the stance) this is Yori Ashi.
If you move the front foot backwards (contraction of the stance) this is also Suri Ashi and if you move the back foot backwards (expansion of the stance) this is also Yori Ashi. It is not about which foot (front or back) moves first it is whether we are contracting or expanding our stance irrespective of which direction we are going.
Maybe a simpler explanation applies say to Kiba Dachi, if we move either the left leg or right leg into the technique (contraction) this is Suri Ashi and if we move either left or right leg out from the technique (expansion) this is Yori Ashi.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by andyupton on Feb 19, 2012 20:45:40 GMT
Okay Allan, I accept that, but what about the movement that I am querying ? What is it's flipping name ?! ;D
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 19, 2012 20:52:05 GMT
Hi Andy
Forgot to mention that in your example of moving the back leg in and then the front leg out Gyaku Tsuki is Suri Ashi/Yori Ashi, contraction and expansion.
Next time I am up with my Grandson Matt I will explain by demo if you are there.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 19, 2012 21:04:56 GMT
Hi Andy
65 in September!!??
Think I might have them the wrong way round, Yori Ashi is when we have contraction and Suri Ashi is when we have expansion, sometimes referred to as Okuri Ashi.
Hope you get the picture.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by andyupton on Feb 19, 2012 22:54:54 GMT
It's a date ! ;D Although it'll have to be a Wednesday or a Sunday !
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 21, 2012 17:25:49 GMT
My previous posting got me thinking more about Yori Ashi/Suri Ashi and Okuri Ashi so I looked further and there appears to be conflicting explanations of same.
In "The Shotokan Dictionary" by Schlatt he advises that Yori Ashi as a "slide step with a first move of one leg to the other and a following movement of the other leg in direction of the target" which I understand to be contraction. He describes Suri Ashi as "glide step" (Superimposed concept) and Okuri Ashi "glide step as the first move of the foot which is closer to the target and then the other foot pulled after" which I understand to be expansion.
"You Tube" shows Sensei Kagawa doing Yori Ashi as an expansion.
Other sites show Yori Ashi as expansion, Suri Ashi as contraction and in Kendo Yori Ashi is described as Okuri Ashi which is expansion.
Schlatt points out that various terms for the forms of sliding are used interchangeably by Japanese Sensei, so I am now even more confused as to which terminology aptly descibes which footwork technique.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by andyupton on Feb 21, 2012 21:16:48 GMT
My previous posting got me thinking more about Yori Ashi/Suri Ashi and Okuri Ashi so I looked further and there appears to be conflicting explanations of same. In "The Shotokan Dictionary" by Schlatt he advises that Yori Ashi as a "slide step with a first move of one leg to the other and a following movement of the other leg in direction of the target" which I understand to be contraction. He describes Suri Ashi as "glide step" (Superimposed concept) and Okuri Ashi "glide step as the first move of the foot which is closer to the target and then the other foot pulled after" which I understand to be expansion. "You Tube" shows Sensei Kagawa doing Yori Ashi as an expansion. Other sites show Yori Ashi as expansion, Suri Ashi as contraction and in Kendo Yori Ashi is described as Okuri Ashi which is expansion. Schlatt points out that various terms for the forms of sliding are used interchangeably by Japanese Sensei, so I am now even more confused as to which terminology aptly descibes which footwork technique. Best Regards Allan YOU'RE confused ? What about ME ?? I asked the original question !! ;D
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Post by nathanso on Feb 22, 2012 1:19:00 GMT
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 22, 2012 17:56:34 GMT
Hi Andy and Neil
After having a good sleep and then some karate practice that "feels" right I am going to stick with my original posting (Feb19 2012 8:31pm) and what I was taught many years ago. Yori Ashi is expansion of stance irrespective of the direction (forward or backward) of movement and Suri Ashi is contraction of stance irrespective of direction (forward or backward) of movement.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by makoto on Feb 24, 2012 14:10:31 GMT
My wife(Japanese) when I asked her said........suri(suru) means to slide and yori(yoru) means to get close(ie step closer).
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 24, 2012 20:05:21 GMT
Hi John
In your experience of JKA and ITKF Shotokan Karate what term(s) best describe the contraction and expansion of the footwork in this posting? Whilst I appreciate that conversational Japanese is different from dojo Japanese the "yori" explanation to step closer can be achieved by either moving the front foot forward first with the back foot to follow or move the back foot towards the front foot and then move the front foot forward, both achieve the ultimate aim of stepping closer but from different application.
Also many thanks for replying to John Stanley's posting on TSW regarding his trip to Japan. I think he might also post on the OSS site also. I have known John for some years now and he is an excellent karate-ka who is always very keen to learn.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 27, 2012 18:45:21 GMT
Looking in "Best Karate", Yori Ashi and Suri Ashi are both translated as "Sliding the feet". But what is the correct term for the following foot movement - You are in Kamae in Zenkutsu Dachi (Left foot forward). You move your back foot up so it is under your hip, and then you move your front foot forward with, say, Gyaku Tsuki I hope I have explained myself ! WHat you describe here is Sugi Ashi stepping and is very common in Kendo. Quite simply the feet never cross but move as you describe. Hope that helps - sorry for delay I have been very busy
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 28, 2012 20:49:48 GMT
Hi Steve
I agree, going back to Andy's original posting what we have is suri (or sugi) ashi (compression) followed by yori ashi (expansion) gyaku tsuki. My understanding of the footwork within Shotokan is based upon that of Kendo and Aikido.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 29, 2012 22:08:19 GMT
In my understanding Suri Ashi and Sugi Ashi are NOT the same thing. Allan, Suri Ashi is a method that involves the 'sliding' forward of the feet whereas Sugi Ashi is a 'stepping' procedure that involves specific relocation of each individual foot in quick succession - although the feet DO NOT pass each other!. If you watch Kendoka as the charge forward and backward doing drills you will see the use of Sugi Ashi and recognise that it is very different to Suri and Yori Ashi (which themselves are different to each other. ALL very useful strategic Footwork methods though! Again - one of those things very simple to demonstrate and tediously long to describe via the written word
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Post by kensei on Mar 29, 2012 12:20:51 GMT
Its fun to use Japanese terms when teaching and describing movement in the written word....but do we need to?
Look at what it has done here! lets say Sliding foot, Stepping feet or what have you!
I took Kendo from a Japanese instructor here in Canada and he never spoke a word of Japanese after we bowed in...he even said "practice sword" and not "Shinai". it was funny!
I asked him why he did not speak Japanese in class and he said "you dont know Japanese...I dont want to be disrespectful to you and the others". I told him I did Karate and knew a bit of Japanese and he asked if my instructor was Japanese...I said no and he said "ah, that is why he speaks Japanese...He does not know its rude".
Kind of left me scratching my head...but I think I get it now!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Mar 29, 2012 15:07:40 GMT
The up side of using Japanese terminology is that no matter where in the world you go you will understand the command given if you are familiar with the Japanese. Also I think there is a case to be made that often things are lost in translation and knowing the Japanese term and its literal meaning can often help in understanding the technique and its usage. However I do accept that often it is merely used to add to the mystique and can be very confusing to newcomers.
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Post by kensei on Mar 29, 2012 18:52:06 GMT
The up side of using Japanese terminology is that no matter where in the world you go you will understand the command given if you are familiar with the Japanese. Also I think there is a case to be made that often things are lost in translation and knowing the Japanese term and its literal meaning can often help in understanding the technique and its usage. However I do accept that often it is merely used to add to the mystique and can be very confusing to newcomers. I fear that most people adopt using Japanese in a Dojo when teaching because it makes them sound wise and mysterious when teaching. the truth is it often serves to confuse and some instructors, as point in this conversation, tend to misuse the term and totally thow a curve ball in the education of the student.
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Post by malk103 on Mar 30, 2012 11:42:47 GMT
In some respects I wish we dropped the Jap language completely, a lot of names were changed when Shotokan became popular or was introduced/moved to Japan but when it spread to the West we have stuck with the terminology. As we have helped Karate "evolve" then maybe we should adapt some of the naming to help us understand it better. One of the hardest parts I find about training is the extra moments in translating my thoughts into instructions. Also how crap you look if you get it wrong.
Although its a great point that you can walk into any Dojo in the world and say OSS and train - even though you have no idea what they say in their native tongue.
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Post by kensei on Mar 30, 2012 13:45:47 GMT
its like anything else in Karate...or anything else for that matter their is good and their is bad in adapting the Japanese terms or using English. to Japanese or not to Japanese...that is the question! ;D
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Post by barryives on Apr 3, 2012 12:41:34 GMT
Having swapped from Shotokan (and traditional Karate altogether) to a 'freestyle' karate (with a bit of Kempo mixed in), obviously everything is in English. I find it hugely refreshing . A front kick is just a front kick, there is never anything 'lost in translation'
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 3, 2012 12:57:16 GMT
I still think ( playing devils advocate) that some case can be made for using Japanese, if the meaning is understood. For instance the use of Uke as in age-uke etc. We translate that as a block. The inference is of solid opposition. in fact it should be more accurately translated as " to receive" . The correct meaning then transforms understanding of the technique. This can be the case often and should be guarded against.
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Post by barryives on Apr 3, 2012 13:52:05 GMT
I still think ( playing devils advocate) that some case can be made for using Japanese, if the meaning is understood. For instance the use of Uke as in age-uke etc. We translate that as a block. The inference is of solid opposition. in fact it should be more accurately translated as " to receive" . The correct meaning then transforms understanding of the technique. This can be the case often and should be guarded against. I'd have to disagree with that I'm afraid. Seeing, using and practising a technique makes me understand more rather than what I call it. I'd rather feel the block reacting in a real application than imply something about its intent from the translation of a foreign language. I seem to be a bit jaded nowadays but I find that Japanese terminology is generally a bad thing. I think people just feel like they are doing 'proper Karate' (whatever that is!) if Japanese is used freely
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Post by fujicolt on Apr 3, 2012 14:19:57 GMT
Having taught as a guest Instructor in Nations were English is not the main language the use of Japanese as an internationally understood 'Karate language' has helped - a bit like the way that the Christian Mass used to be universally conducted in Latin.
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Post by barryives on Apr 3, 2012 14:42:08 GMT
Having taught as a guest Instructor in Nations were English is not the main language the use of Japanese as an internationally understood 'Karate language' has helped - a bit like the way that the Christian Mass used to be universally conducted in Latin. I get the whole 'international language' thing, but I've never trained anywhere other than the UK. To me a good analogy would be football. Invented here and exported worldwide. And wherever the trainer may be you can be sure that when there are explaining the skills needed to be a footballer, they are doing so in their native tongue and not in English.
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Post by Bob Davis on Apr 3, 2012 15:12:43 GMT
But I bet when your footballers are sent to their Ballet class they are taught their terminology in French.
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Post by barryives on Apr 3, 2012 15:23:19 GMT
But I bet when your footballers are sent to their Ballet class they are taught their terminology in French. Good point I'll concede that one
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Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 4, 2012 10:27:13 GMT
I'd have to disagree with that I'm afraid. Seeing, using and practising a technique makes me understand more rather than what I call it. I'd rather feel the block reacting in a real application than imply something about its intent from the translation of a foreign language.
That is fair comment for you personally barryives but is probably an indication of how you learn rather than an argument against. I am not saying I disagree with you as such, just that some people employ learning strategies that are different to yours and may benefit from knowing more about the terminology. There is also a case for saying that because of a pre-conceived impression of how a technique should be employed, that misconception is passed on from sensei to sensei. If you do not think that happens then take a look at how juji-uke was taught to us for many years. To use the uke analogy if you practice uke as a block, as a solid opposition to an attack then you occlude the other uses it can be put to and limit your learning.
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