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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 19, 2012 19:00:09 GMT
Actually, I don't really believe this, but it caught your attention didn't it?
After decades of sparring in the ITKF style I recently have had an opportunity to spar with a style that just has a running point score. It really is different: not superior or inferior, just a completely different experience.
This post is mostly a continuation of Jorgensen Sensei's comment on the definition of "Jyu Ippon Kumite" and how it does not actually mean "one point kumite". In my experience the term goes far beyond that; it means a perfect technique applied exactly right, at the correct target, with the exact right distance and timing. I have watched tournaments for years and I believe I have seen maybe three "ippon" calls and a whole bunch of waza-ari. The nature of this sparring changes the entire look and feel of the "game".
ITKF Karateka have been accused of being flat footed and immobile while sparring. One well known commentator suggested they looked stiff, hesitant and amateurish. He had never sparred in the ITKF and I got the impression that he did not understand the very specific nature of the scoring system. He just did not catch that the goal was not just to contact the opponent, but do so in such a way that if fully applied the match would be conclusively ended.
Once you are locked into these very rigid rules, a couple of things happen. The first thing that comes to mind is that you become far more defensive because a single small mistake can mean the immediate end of the match. Most ippons I have seen occured very early in the match; within the first 30 seconds. There is no coming back from behind. The other thing that happens is that you always prefer to fight from a more stable stance: much of the judged elements of technique when looking at ippon is whether the athlete was in a stable stance and had obvious forward enertia. You can score on the retreat, but only if you successfully apply go-no-sen timing (the attack must have forward momentum of the entire body, not just the limb). The attack must demonstrate kime timed with the impact and scoring punches are not snapped back (but returned immediately to guard is good after a full lock-out).
Obviously the rigid limitations on the scoring tends to change the nature and range of attacks. It is not terribly worthwhile to get creative in your attack and, in fact, the most likely scoring technique is going to be the trusty reverse punch. Players can demonstrate kime, timing and distance far better with the reverse punch than just about any other technique (though I know one guy who routinely scores with a round-house kick to the head). Kicks are less likely to score, so they are used very little. Sweeps are used frequently, but only to set up the reverse punch (lots of bloody shins) and most fights are won or lost on the basis of a waza-ari: a perfect technique is hard to come by.
I think I see more injuries from ITKF style sparring. At least more bloody noses, loose teeth, black eyes and bloody shins. Because there is such emphasis on having a "devastating single technique", the punches are thrown with more intent and perhaps less control. That might just be my impression.
On the other hand, I find the point-sparring style to be far more open and, yes, more interesting. Because players can afford to take a few chances (one point does not end the match immediately) they might play a bit more and try different strategies to break the opponent's defenses. You can afford to let go a couple of points if it is going to open up scoring opportunities. Because the scoring rules are not so rigid, you might allow your stances to relax a bit, giving you more mobility and maybe certainly you are far more willing to experiment with different attacks. On the same token, because the rules are more geared to light contact rather than a single devastating technique, you are really not so prone to throw as firm a technique: you might be more prone to keep things light and more friendly.
These are just my personal impressions. I certainly find ITKF sparring to be more serious. Whenever I have sparred in the ITKF it felt like I was facing an enemy armed with a knife; no room for error and maybe not much fun to be had. In the point-sparring matches I have had lately there was far, far more fun to be had, but I did not get that feeling of "life or death" that we seem to associate with karate sparring. I also found I had to be FAR more mobile for point-sparring.
Again, just my impressions, but there is no doubt in my mind that we are dealing with two species of sparring, not simply sub-sets of the same game.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 20, 2012 0:49:29 GMT
the final word in your post ( 'game' ) does imho give you the answers as to how to train. Sport Karate is just a 'game' - a great one that I thoroughly enjoyed competing in for 2 decades - but still a game nonetheless. it is far from reality (and seemingly more so from what i witness of the more modern interpretations of it!) and has to be taken for what it is. Train with this fact understood and you should be able to compete under whatever rules are 'in play' at each event and further to this be able to apply your Karate in reality. I know this is attainable - not only because I have witnessed it but also because I spent years coming home from tournaments and stepping stright into my role as a Doorman. The secret is balance in the training Sadly though this balance is far too often decidedly absent
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 20, 2012 19:10:33 GMT
the final word in your post ( 'game' ) does imho give you the answers as to how to train. Sport Karate is just a 'game' - a great one that I thoroughly enjoyed competing in for 2 decades - but still a game nonetheless. That may be the difference as well. Perhaps that is why Nishiyama Sensei was so set in his ways with regards to Jyu Ippon Kumite. I know from protracted discussions with Jorgensen Sensei that Mr. Nishiyama wanted every match to feel like "life or death" rather than a sporting game. That is certainly my experience. I never enjoyed sparring in the ITKF style and I always assumed that it was because I was really poor at sparring. In the last few months I have had an opportunity to spar on simple point match style and it was fun and I actually could control the matches to some degree (until my 50 years of life started catching up on me). I was not so bad at sparring after all. When I had time to critically evaluate the difference, I realized that it was the increased aggression and danger factor of the ITKF style that removed the fun of the sparring for me. I have to emphasize that I am not actually criticizing either style. It would be like comparing bread with fruit. In retrospect I wish I had spent far more time mastering the art of ITKF sparring; the ability to face overt aggression and react appropriately in the split second with only one chance to win or lose seems to be the more worthwhile of the skill sets. Just not much fun.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 21, 2012 4:37:18 GMT
Bryce, at risk of sounding patronising – which I assure you is NOT my intent – I would offer the following advice: You are in need of a considerable Paradigm shift as IMHO you are being too hard upon yourself and appear to have misunderstood the actual original aims of Shiai Kumite. You are failing to recognise certain aspects of participating in robust (read potentially dangerous) Kumite and as a result are not crediting yourself with the achievements you have made. In my tournament days Competitions were VERY Robust and dangerous events – broken bones, knockouts, broken noses etc were very common and an accepted aspect of our chosen sport – no different as (for example) Rugby. All of us of that Era that competed regularly accepted the risk and in many ways actually considered it as a very important reason for competing. Let me explain: When faced with the reality that taking part could, often would, mean that injury would occur this presents a ‘battle’ that isn’t about defeating others but instead is about defeating oneself. It is the ‘Test’ of whether or not you are truly studying a Martial Art and applying the developed skills. Of course it is not as dangerous as a real life violent self-defence encounter but it is nevertheless a very good facsimile within certain boundaries. Remember Bryce that by facing your fears, your anxieties and the fact that you do not consider the activity enjoyable but nevertheless stepping up to that line and then stepping forward into the furnace on the command of Hajime YOU have made a considerable achievement that 100’s upon thousands could not bring themselves to attempt let alone achieve. Be justifiably fulfilled and even proud of that achievement for no matter what happens after that Hajime command you have already ‘won’ the most important battle = Can I? Would I? ‘Step up’ when the sh*t hits the fan! Once you realise that you are capable of such courage, such personal control in the face of danger you can then carry that personal focus forward into the Match to further ‘test’ yourself by honing your already demonstrated fighting spirit into a personal ability to not only step up and step forward but to maintain that ability throughout the ongoing combative exchange between yourself and your opponent. Every minute (in fact every second) you maintain your fighting spirit and focus on the task before you is yet again a demonstration of your Mental focus and fortitude as you deploy your physical Karate skills. Enjoy each and every second of it as you quite rightly absorb the gravity and depth of the test you are indulging in and the fact that you are doing your very best. Whatever the outcome Bryce (win or lose the match) the fact is YOU have passed the test and should enjoy that and see it as a personal WIN. The more you experience this sense of achievement the more you will learn about yourself and what you need to do to improve your skills such as timing, distancing, choice of technique and accuracy etc. As a result your potential to win bouts will grow and your anxiety and fears will become more and more under your control (they never totally leave and that is normal and healthy) as a result you will eventually find the whole ‘test’ of yourself enjoyable and even fun as you repeatedly demonstrate to yourself that you are indeed a Martial Artist and not simply a Sportsman! The very best of luck!
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 21, 2012 5:23:20 GMT
Thank you for the heart felt advice.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 21, 2012 5:34:34 GMT
Samurai Maxim: 'The Iron Ore feels itself needlessly tortured in the furnace - but the Tempered Steel blade looks back and knows better'
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Post by kensei on Mar 21, 2012 13:30:38 GMT
I think we need to get rid of ITKF sparring and replace it with Showa Kumite or something. ITKF is not the only style that spars like this! The "one punch perfect kill" kind of sparring is old style sparring and something we do as well.
I personally hate the "new" Sport style kumite. Its a tag game and I can say in the Dojo its silly and in self protection situations deadly for those that "score a point" and then disengage.
I once sparred with a "tournament champ" who sparred like this and after he "scored his point" I ran him over and blasted him...he was so shocked and mad that I did not stop because, in his words" his point would have ended that fight".......Really? The point I made is...What if it doesnt!
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 21, 2012 15:47:30 GMT
Showa Kumite or something
Whats that?
If we are going to keep the point scoring systems (and we are because that is the overwhelming popular vote these days) why would you ditch ITKF Ippon Kumite? It has its place. But I am open to this Showa sparring if I knew what it is.
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Post by makoto on Mar 21, 2012 17:48:11 GMT
I can say for a fact, I have not seen anything like ITKF rules sparring here in Japan. But, I have seen many good kumite and kata guys who could benefit from the ideas of it. Talk is cheap. I hate watching karate tournaments in japan, on you tube, etc.
"I once sparred with a "tournament champ" who sparred like this and after he "scored his point" I ran him over and blasted him...he was so shocked and mad that I did not stop because, in his words" his point would have ended that fight".......Really? The point I made is...What if it doesnt! ""
When I sparr with guys who like to keep going after I clearly have gotten in on them, I hit them hard the next time. No doubts after that. However, I agree with the "What if it doesnt" factor. I try not to get caught stuck in one place when hitting the target.
IMO, ITKF rules are what will save the mess WKF, WUKO, and JKA have gotten themselves into. Once upon a time it did not feel like a game of tag. Even though contact was not made, there was no doubt if the attack would have been effective or not. Kata and kumite should be done like this. Too bad the JKA here where I live have lost that focus. Probably because of the WKF influence over the years.
Sorry for calling it as I see it.
ITKF rules are for the karate guy, not for the spectator.While WKF changes their rules every year, just to be more popular to watch(And JKA is apart of the WKF).
I know I sound arrogant. But, experience dealing with WKF, JKA, and ITKF, has lead me to believe that ITKF rules are the best representation of realistic non-contact karate you are going to get.
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Post by kensei on Mar 21, 2012 20:21:26 GMT
Showa Kumite or somethingWhats that? If we are going to keep the point scoring systems (and we are because that is the overwhelming popular vote these days) why would you ditch ITKF Ippon Kumite? It has its place. But I am open to this Showa sparring if I knew what it is. Showa is a term I came across that denotes the Kumite that was done with Nakayama Sensei when the JKA first started up....basically "old school". I dont think its a perfect translation as it refers to a period in japanese history (like Meijin and others based on the rules name after his death)...confused...well I basically meant old school. ;D
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Post by kensei on Mar 21, 2012 20:37:35 GMT
I hate when people get in and tag you then run away like they just killed you. The idea is that your techniques should feel as though they will stop an attacker...but what if they dont.
Being on the wrong end of a bar fight while working I can tell you that more times than not the guy that hits just once is the guy that gets his free ride in a ambulance...dont play tippy tap tag...throw punches in bunches and dont stop till its done. Sparring should look about the same...but with much better form!
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 21, 2012 20:54:42 GMT
I hate when people get in and tag you then run away like they just killed you. The idea is that your techniques should feel as though they will stop an attacker...but what if they dont. Ok. I see that sort of sparring all the time. But then we all have if we have been around long enough. Midwest Karate had a young man visit us a few years back who sparred like this. Wonderful athlete, fast and talented, but would dance away after he thought he had "got one in", exposing his back as he did. We kind of tried to point out that turning your back on "the enemy" any time was a foolish, even if the rules say something different.
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 21, 2012 21:08:58 GMT
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Post by makoto on Mar 21, 2012 23:28:41 GMT
I agree with Kensei. The guys who think just one hit will do will get creamed. You have to be prepared to hit hard and do it multiple times. However, each blow should be just as strong and just as grounded as the first. Nothing I hate seeing more in tournaments are guys doing multiple punches and coming up on their toes all the while just using their arms(no body, core, use of legs, etc). The other thing I hate is that backing up and then punching over(sometimes even jumping over) the guy's attack. You whole body is going back, yet you are punching forward. To me that is not karate, no matter if it gets a wazari or not.
I am just sick of seeing too much crap in tournaments, and that includes watching local tournaments. Very good movement. Excellent speed. Would not hurt a fly. Never been hurt here in Japan. Most simple can not punch correctly. Snappy punches designed to score points, not to be effective. That includes WKF and JKA tournamet here in Chiba prefecture.
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 22, 2012 2:09:18 GMT
To avoid the mounting pissing match, let me describe to you three types of sparring partner that I have encountered in my new incarnation as a Goju-Shorin- Shotokan and miserable putz in the basement karate guy:
1. 50 year old Sensei who was a tournament winner (Frank Clayton of the Goju club). Great guy and will play just about any game you want. I think he might be more crippled up than I am since I have seen some pretty rough techniques as he gets tired. Pretty sharp when he is rested and seems to be able to fight in any style
2. Young female black belt. Pleasant as hell but really is only a two trick poney. She insists in fighting in almost a pure kiba-dachi and as a result has only her front leg kicks available (excellent jodan mawashi geri and good timing on a front leg chudan level thrust kick). Unfortunately, the onlly time she can actually catch her opponent is when her opponent is caught napping. I can pretty much run her down as long as I keep on top of her timing: if she is front leg weighted, block the backfist strike she is about to throw and charge. If she is airborn, charge with a combination. If she is back foot weighted, just stay put. Unfortunately I tend to day-dream periodically. And get hit.
3. Young Brown Belt with some temper control issues (cannot smile if his life depends on it) He is obviously a protege of the young lady above. Fights in kiba-dachi. He has a pretty dynamic front leg round-house kick, but runs like a French soldier if you charge him. Its a bit disturbing since as he does so, turned 45 degrees to the rear, he is usually throwing this pathetic ineffectual reverse punches around the corner of his body. He seems to think he is scoring since I pretty much ignore them as I try to figure out how to create a bit more distance so my own technique is at least decent. Typical of every young man, he ignores the four or five techniques I chose NOT to hit him with and seems to applaud himself for the one pathetic tap he did hit me with. Not interesting to spar with at all.
4. 34 year old brown belt with some original methods all of his own. Fights like a boxer with a half foreward stance, bringing all his weapons up on line. He can hit well with either hand, has decent fast kicks and holy is he mobile. He tends to circle clockwise continually and often will shift right then attack in off that shift. My current strategy, which works while I fresh, is to continually attack with flowing combinations. Unfortunately, he has nearly 20 years on me, so that freshness disappears damn fast. Once I am tired it feels like predator circling his prey and pecking away at it freely. I might try something new next session; maybe start off a little more stationary and try to catch him with early Go-No-Sen timing. Its hard; he is a quick devil.
I am told I have not actually met the fire-breathers of the dojo yet; Sensei tells me that I will have to watch them closely because they tend to get a bit rough from time to time. He gave me the impression that they are big buggers (so maybe less mobile?). The boxer is giving me the most trouble; he is fit, fast and is willing to change strategies on the drop of the hat. He also does not back up...ever. He will circle instead. Not a strategy the ITKF has taught me to deal with well.
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Post by makoto on Mar 22, 2012 13:23:15 GMT
I mean no insult. Just tired of the tippy tappy karate that I often seen in my little karate. I could be wrong about other places and people in Japan. I also think the karate is better outside Japan, if that matters.
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Post by makoto on Mar 22, 2012 13:54:49 GMT
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Post by kensei on Mar 22, 2012 14:22:43 GMT
Tip tap Karate can be great fun to watch, exciting and fun...but to me its like Pro-wrestling with out the known outcome! Not real!
I have no doubt that I am generalizing here, and on purpose too! But the majority of young black belts that do this kind of fighting play tag and dont finish techniques.
A great technique should have stopping power, and should be followed by....a great technique that has stopping power.
I have seen fights that end with the first punch, and I have seen fights that look like boxing matches....you never know what you are in for till it hits the fan. I would rather be the guy that punches in bunches and has a better than average chance of winning than a guy that throws "A punch" and gets creamed when the attacker says "thank you " and comes at me again.
You never know...its like when I was taught to shoot for center of mass and not take the chance that a "leg Shot" ends the fight when in the army...you just do your best to not get killed and that means fighting in teh dojo like your life is in danger and not doing silly tip tap tag crapola!
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 22, 2012 15:37:41 GMT
Do you think that is really the case or is it a "grass is greener" situation?
There are a lot of people in the West who still hold on to the myth that karate in Japan is somehow special but I suspect that it's just as easy to get the impression from the web that everybody in the West is open minded, pushing the boundaries and moving forward (I suspect it's really just a small core).
I would guess the actuallity where ever you train in the world is that about 5% of karate is top notch, 75% falls across the range of mediocre and around 20% is totally shocking. I'd guess the disapointment of karate in Japan is that it is no more special than anywhere else.
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Post by bryceifleming on Mar 22, 2012 16:37:05 GMT
I just wanted to make one point with regards to what John and I have experienced in the ITKF tournament sparring and how, sometimes, people get the wrong idea about what the definition of "ikken hissatsu" might be.
From most references and my own experience, most people seem to believe that "ikken hissatsu" means "one punch kill" (or some other lame translation) and assume that means that a correct karate blow would actually cripple or kill an opponent. This is, in my limitted experience and quite extensive research, pure and unadulterated bull.
The true concept of "ikken hissatsu" is more like a strike that, if fully applied (full hard contact) would be the absolute turning point of the confrontation after which the opponent would be unable to mount an effective defense should the attacker continue his attack. In other words, that "ikken hissatsu" did not actually "kill" the opponent, it just broke his defenses so convincingly that he was essentially helpless.
Here is an example for your consideration. Three years ago during the preliminaries of the ITKF Nationals in Regina, Mike Tchosewski came up against a young black belt who, from the start, was clearly overmatched and overwhelmed by Mike. Standing at the side lines I could see that the young man was poised at any moment to run and all Mike had to do was push hard with a combination. At about the 30 second mark of the match Mike threw a jab at the kid's face and the kid immediately came up in his stance and started to pack peddal. Mike immediately flowed in with an absolutely beautiful, text-book round-house kick to the temple. If you could have fit a piece of paper between Mike's foot and that kid's head I would have been amazed. Mike then finished off with a good reverse punch to the mid-section to which the kid never even reacted. Ippon was scored on the round-house kick/ reverse punch combination.
At no point in the above combination did Mike make firm contact; the young gentleman never even got a bruise, but he also absolutely no defensive reaction to either the kick or the punch. He was helpless. In truth, had that kick landed, the punch would have been likely unneccesary, but it did'nt and Mike wanted insurance.
Now, in the real world, do we think that a round-house kick to the head (ignore the questionable tactic of kicking head high in a real fight) would "finish" a fight? It probably would, but truthfully, if it did not, the attacker would still likely have a HUGE opening to rain hell down upon the opponent and finish him completely. That kick would be the turning point after which no effective defense against a continued attack could be mounted.
For you military guys with some military history training, this is comparable to the turning point of a pitched battle where the losing side breaks and the situation degenerates from defensive fighting to strategic retreat to uncontrolled rout. If you look at the ancient battles the majority of casualities occured after the losing side broke and ran. That side was still standing and more or less functioning, but something broke them and they had entirely lost all defensive capability.
The problem we have with the idea that "ikken hissatsu" being a "killing blow" is that the literalists in the karate world actually believe that is so. Thus, when you slide a jab-reverse punch into the opponent and he fails to even react to either attack, contact or not he is done and should admit that. Unfortunately there is the group that immediately says "that combo would never stop ME" and they continue sparring, dishonestly ignoring the successful attack. Certainly that combo might not stop you in the real world; but the fact you would be stunned long enough for the attacker to step in and knee you in the groin then punch you in the throat and finish by gouging out your left eye means that your fight was over the moment that jab landed (had your opponent chose to actually hit you). That is why John suggests that when he is faced with a sparring partner who ignores successful attacks in the name of realism, he just steps up the firmness of his punches to convince the opponent that honesty is the best policy.
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Post by makoto on Mar 23, 2012 9:39:30 GMT
@ Bob. I like what you said. But, for me, the karate is better outside Japan. And that, that is speaking from my own little karate world here in Japan. Here is one for you. Every year, Chiba prefecture has a summer camp. Many good guys there. Lots of teaching going on. I understand them well. I just do not learn very much. However, I do pick up a point here and there. But compared to other seminars or dojo in Canada and the States, not very much is learnt. I can say the same for my one time visit to the JKA main dojo for the spring training camp. Three days, and nothing much taught. Sure, minor stuff like this is how the hand is held here in this kata now, and this is how you do this. But, anything like, he is how you can improve your reverse punch or to have a better kick you need to do this. Nothing like that was said. So, yeah. Go to a seminar in a western dojo and more than likely you will come out with something to work on for a year or so. In Japan, good if you want to do better at tournaments, basically.
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Post by Bob Davis on Mar 23, 2012 15:21:04 GMT
No, I understand what you are saying. I see it happen when our chief instructor comes back from a course with "We are doing xxx kata this way now apparently, no idea why it's changed" I've been to training sessions with some "top" Japanese names over here and, whilst I've enjoyed myself, haven't really learned anything new. I have also had the same experience with some high ranking Western instructors, good sessions but no real new information, however I've also had some over here where I come away with more information than I can sensibly fit in to my training in one go (Steve H's Friendship courses are a case in point) so I cherry pick the things that will help me now and stack up the rest for the future (in the hope that I can fit it in before the next course ). I would still suggest that the general level of karate is possibly much of a muchness but if you are prepared to look around and keep an open mind the opportunities do exist over here to move it on a level.
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