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Post by elmar on Jan 3, 2013 14:21:19 GMT
... the hips should never go past square... Never heard that restriction, and it is violated often in kata with "blocks" (often useful as counter-strikes). Further, if one can invoke a physics related thought, the optimal angle between the upper torso and the arm is 90 degrees - the tangent - so as to spill the least amount of force generated by rotation. Thus one has to over rotate a tad to get the fist to end up on the center line. Now of course the difference is measured in ounces with this alteration, i.e. probably insignificant, but arguments are made over even finer details
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Post by kensei on Jan 3, 2013 15:35:32 GMT
yah, I kind of see it as the rotation of the hip should not be artificially stopped in the rotation, it should naturally be stopped by ones natural block! the fact that someone say stunt the rotation in your hip kind of takes the spin out of the punch if you are concerned with when to stop the rotation.
For me the I go a bit past "front" with my hip and rotate till I feel a closing of the groin feel, past square and let my arm finish when my hip does and focus the stance. I feel I hit harder this way and so do those I spar with or those that have held a bag for me.
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Post by th0mas on Jan 3, 2013 16:11:12 GMT
Sounds like a form over function comment to me...
Does it not depend on your body shape, your target, the position you're punching from and the angle at which you are trying to strike?
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Post by kensei on Jan 3, 2013 20:56:23 GMT
Sounds like a form over function comment to me... Does it not depend on your body shape, your target, the position you're punching from and the angle at which you are trying to strike? All good points, but lets say you are punching in the air, and you are just doing Chudan level reverse punch. do you A) stop the hip as it "hits" the flush forwards or B) allow your hip to rotate till it naturally stalls out due to tissue blocking at the hips? Not saying that if you are stiff you kneed to push it farther, but a natural stop!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 7, 2013 12:03:42 GMT
I think we are over-thinking this a little ? I have seen poor gyaku practice in the past from over rotation of the hips ( affecting blanace ) to pulling too far back in aihanmei . The main points to get right are speed, balance and delivery of body mass into the target. If the preparatory monionents are exaggerated this will lead to a lack of speed and telegraphing of technique. If we over rotate then recovery is compromised and slower. The main thing to get right ( and this is difficult when punching without a target ) is distance surely? Gyaku-tsuki can be equated to an elongated boxing right/left cross. There is nothing mystical about it and your practice should include applying it from many different stances/body positions. Basic gyaku-tsuki, performed from zenkutsu-dachi should be kihon and used to teach the principle. Once learned, the application is much wider and more free. Small circles prevents exaggerated movements and promotes a natural technique.
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Post by tomobrien on Jan 8, 2013 2:38:24 GMT
Still tryin to do the perfect Gyaku-tsuki & I'm gonna keep tryin till I get it right
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 8, 2013 9:41:18 GMT
Still tryin to do the perfect Gyaku-tsuki & I'm gonna keep tryin till I get it right How will you know? Not being funny, just wondered what your criteria are?
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 8, 2013 9:57:52 GMT
The closest I've come (I'm assuming) was during dojo kumite. Don't know how the form looked but the punch was effortless and the timing spot on, given that we were both moving and everything was in a constant state of change. The down side of this for my training partner was a number of broken ribs and 6 weeks off work (not my proudest moment ). It did at least prove the effectiveness of the technique I suppose .
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 8, 2013 10:08:01 GMT
So as far as you are concerned Bob it is effectiveness as opposed to form for forms sake? Pragmatic, as am I. I am interested in your statement that the punch was effortless. Do you attribute that to good form or were you particularly relaxed at that moment? Perhaps it was a matter of timing or distance? This is something we all strive for so would be good to hear how each of us manage to achieve this ( if we ever do ) and I feel much more valuable than the whole " stance width, place your foot here, placement of the hip " debate.
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Post by kensei on Jan 8, 2013 13:42:47 GMT
When learning/Training any techniques you have three different "worlds" that you have to think within. The first it pure Technical ability and technical perfection (for lack of a better term). This is when you use the "air" as your target. You are worried about form, stance, hips, arm movements, whole body timing and putting everything together to maket he punch as techncially perfect as possible. This starts at white belt and ends...when you die! The next level or world is the ability to impart power and use impact training to make sure that the body is able to deliver the techniques against a target. This is often a heavy bag or if lucky a Makiwara for punching ( another debate I am sure). This is when you have to ensure you wont hurt yourself when striking something harder than Oxygen! the key elements you are thinking about are proper alignment of the wrist and body, and once that is done you are focusing on just hitting the damn target as hard as you can. Very straight forward and should start around purple belt in my mind. The last world or phase as you will is the use against a moving target in a combative situation like Kumite. This now puts all that you have learned to the test of doing this under mild...or high stress and makes use of reaction, timing, distance and a whole other kind of feel to use of the techniques. as far as the hip debate, it falls squarly in the first world/phase of training and I realize this...but if you dont have a mechanically correct punch to start with moving on creates a false sense of ability. I have seen way to many black belts leaning, not punching with power or not using a correct body movement that lessens the movement or even can cause damage to the person and all because they rushed to get to "use" the move in "real life" and forgot that the forging of a solid sword will allow you to use it longer in a fight with out fear of hurting yourself! Also, far to many seniors refuse to go back to square one and start over or focus on the start of a movement and then suffer for it in the end with weak techniques.
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