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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 24, 2012 9:17:40 GMT
What is your take on this? Do you use randori-type training in your class? Do you see it as the domain of skilled grapplers like bjj or MMA practitioners or as an essential part of self-defence?
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Post by th0mas on Aug 24, 2012 12:23:30 GMT
Hi Jim Personally I don't really spar long range anymore (unless I am mucking around), I like to get in close and dirty and try out stuff , I would suggest that that is more randori-light. I see being able to handle your opponent at close range (and all that that may entail) as an essential tool for Self-Defence. This should include the full range of techniques, principles and applications. I am not a fan of "going-to-the-ground" as a suitable tactic for self-defence, However being able to get-up from the ground and back on your feet as a key SD principle probably shares a whole raft of skills with that bjj tactic. However in our club we struggle doing ground work, given our clubs training circumstances and if I am honest with myself for a moment, all of our seniors could do with a significant refresher from a grappling specialist. (if anything just to focus the mind and re-focus their training priorities )
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 24, 2012 14:37:53 GMT
Hi Tom, I agree, the management of distance is essential as is a working knowledge of grappling. However I am mindful of Funakoshi advice, which still rings true. "One must always keep in mind that since the essence of karate is to be found in a single thrust or kick, and one should never be grasped by or grapple with an opponent, one must be careful not to be defeated through concern with throwing an opponent or applying a joint-punishment hold". I feel this is saying although it is a part of karate , it should be considered secondary for practice purposes.
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Post by elmar on Aug 24, 2012 19:54:59 GMT
..."...one should never be grasped by or grapple with an opponent... Note that this does NOT say that you yourself may not take hold of your opponent - hikite is after all not called that to no purpose.
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Post by th0mas on Aug 25, 2012 8:35:46 GMT
Hi Jim & Elmar
I agree totally, ultimately the principle in karate is to gain the advantage so that you finish the fight with a good hard solid strike(s).
But what we really need is some new uninformed people to start posting on this forum... just so that we can get some decent technical debates going :-)
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 25, 2012 14:02:49 GMT
Yep , got to agre on both points, hikite and the need for more contributions, trying to create debate but not getting many bites! Cmon folks!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 25, 2012 15:26:02 GMT
Yep , got to agre on both points, hikite and the need for more contributions, trying to create debate but not getting many bites! Cmon folks!
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Post by malk103 on Aug 27, 2012 21:18:47 GMT
I try to add anything of use from whatever style, mainly to link the SD to what you are actually likely to get! The acts of Physical Violence used by agressors hasn't changed much and a lot of Kata leads directly back to these attacks so it makes sense to match the SD training to them. It makes sense that after the striking distance is closed then you need to deal with an up close and personal attack so grappling and floor work is the next logical step. I did a Tegumi course with Patrick McCarthy recently and he showed several examples of grappling turning into Kata Bunkai, you just have to get past the long range basic attack/defence Bunkai. Although I have 2 classes within our club I am only teaching 10th to 6th Kyu grades but have already started to introduce some basic grappling into the 3 K's, the last lot was from the floor!
Seek out people like Iain Abernethy and John Burke who have added grappling and more close up Bunkai to their teaching.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 3, 2012 3:28:42 GMT
We cover the ranges of attack, such as kicking range, punching range, trapping range ( knees, elbows & headbutts) & grappling range. We work on getting inside as well as maintaining distance. I really like showing ideas in kata about getting in, destabilizing your opponent & taking him down, also I like to cover joint manipulation, to the point of using these principles on the ground, but as far as going on the ground & rolling around trying to submit my partner is not for me. I more or less emphasize getting away & back up.. To me if both sides are trading blows or any techniques back & forth this is no longer self defense, this is a fight. Very different from what I want to be involved in. Osu
Paul B
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 16, 2012 10:38:14 GMT
Sometimes it ends up as a "fight", best to be prepared for the event. Although I do agree about the submission thing. any dirty tactics to get back to your feet.
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Post by kensei on Oct 16, 2012 12:05:07 GMT
when I was younger I took up Judo and Sambo and while I am much older still remember slivers of it on occasion. I think grappling, be it just standing joint locks and the like is an important part of Karate training....but you really must go to an art that properly teaches the art of grappling if you want to learn more about grappling. Karate mearly skims the surface.
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Post by malk103 on Oct 16, 2012 12:58:21 GMT
.....but you really must go to an art that properly teaches the art of grappling if you want to learn more about grappling. Karate mearly skims the surface...... Or find teachers that include it in their training, after I "discovered" that Kata contained a lot of close quarter grappling/twisting/throwing etc then it's clear that Karate has got it included, it is more a fact that the modern training doesn't include it.
I think it's down to every Sensei to learn from others and increase their knowledge, not just reproduce the same 3K's because that's the way it's always been done. If you were to produce Black Belts that were just good at the 3K's then they will have a large reality check the first time they are involved in a real scrap. Not that i'm an expert or anything, just keen to learn, practice and teach more.
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Post by kensei on Oct 16, 2012 13:14:37 GMT
Or find teachers that include it in their training, after I "discovered" that Kata contained a lot of close quarter grappling/twisting/throwing etc then it's clear that Karate has got it included, it is more a fact that the modern training doesn't include it. I dont agree, My point stands. I would much rather train with a Judo guy or a Jitsu guy than a Karate instructor that "Discovered" grappling in the Kata. The learning from someone that has never learned the details of grips, hip possition, torque and the like is So different than from a Judoka that has 30 years of grappling experience and can tell you that your grip is not correct and will cause you to lose control of the throw half way through, or your thigh has to be at a specific point inside the attackers legs to properly throw and not get taken down with the attacker. the point being that you can not suddenly "figure out" that throws and grappling are included in a Kata, self study it and "get it" to the point you can teach it. I have seen way to many "bunk....Ai" crapola from people that create applications and dont realise that you should not grip a specific way or that you can not do a throw with out moving your hips a specific way to fill a book! The person that is self taught most of the grappling in Kata...has a fool for an instructor! (See what I did their, and no that was not personal...just being funny). I think it's down to every Sensei to learn from others and increase their knowledge, not just reproduce the same 3K's because that's the way it's always been done. If you were to produce Black Belts that were just good at the 3K's then they will have a large reality check the first time they are involved in a real scrap. Not that i'm an expert or anything, just keen to learn, practice and teach more. Kind of agee here, Up to Black belt and including Shodan...they are simply learning the Three K's. At shodan they begin to grow beyond that...or should. And yes, its up to different instructors to share what they learned about Karate and more advance techniques with each other, and to go outside of Karate to learn grips, throws, joint locks and the like. And then bring them back and teach them properly. In a different thread we spoke about the Crab claw take down by Yahara sensei.....to me this is an example of going outside the art and bringing something back to the Dojo to train in....granted its for show but its an example. I often teach the "no thumb grip" taught in Jitsu and Judo to my students who at first think I am nuts, then when they actually use it to foot sweep someone realize why they dont use the thumb when gripping! Its the details that can not be learned by doing kata, they are missing and often never were their for some bunkai. We need to study from those that KNOW what they are doing or we may cause injury to others that could be avoided. Or we could also teach things that we think work...and it gets someone beat up or worse!
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Post by malk103 on Oct 20, 2012 22:42:23 GMT
Fair points, I was boldly hoping that there are plenty of skilled Instructors out there but didn't think too much about those who weren't that brilliant. Also I suppose if you wanted to learn a specific aspect then you would talk to the experts of that aspect, kind of like asking a general builder about specifics of the plumbing or electrics.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2012 7:00:58 GMT
I learned some grappling when I did jujitsu many years ago, close quarter battle ideas have stayed with me all this time and influence my interpretation of karate. I agree with Mal in seeking out the work of Iain Abernathy. His site is full of really good, well thought out articles and information on kata interpretation. Karate can be applied at different ranges in different ways to suit the context of the situation.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 22, 2012 8:23:47 GMT
Personally I feel some cross-training is essential to really understand grappling however I do not agree it needs studying in depth to the extent of being of competition standard. We will be looking to apply this against people with little or no experience in this area, so an advantage is all thats required. Grip, footwork, levers and tai-sabaki all give us this. And yes, Iain Abernethy is great, Go train with him if you can.
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Post by kensei on Oct 22, 2012 12:52:20 GMT
Their is a minimum standard of knowledge and trainign before TEACHING this however. I agree that going out and training in some style of grappling for a tid bit is fine if you are looking to simply apply things and do them yourself, however if you are going to "pass on" what you have done its important to have at least a bit more than a passing understanding of the grappling arts.
If you dont intend on teaching it then dabble. If you are going to pass it on....study the stuff for a bit before you even think about passing it on!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 22, 2012 20:06:50 GMT
Absolutely! There is a basic understanding required but you need to be able answer questions, to deconstruct and cross-reference in order to teach.
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Post by kensei on Oct 22, 2012 21:39:32 GMT
Absolutely! There is a basic understanding required but you need to be able answer questions, to deconstruct and cross-reference in order to teach. exactly, and half knowing something is no way to start out as a teacher! If you are going to teach grappling dont make it up as you go along or half know something! take classes and get to know the movements on a deeper level, hell if you can go and study it alot and get a black belt....I did
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