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Post by kensei on Jan 9, 2013 16:21:08 GMT
..Sorry James that doesn't wash with me. What Dave is asking for is references. You have come to some conclusions based on your own research. This is obviously perfectly valid, but it is your interpretation of what you have read. It is totally reasonable to ask for references so that others can also read what you have and come to their own conclusions (which may or may not be the same as yours). Cool, I charge $75 an hour and I will set up a pay pal account in the next few days…. ;Dwhat Dave is asking for is for me to site references on EVERYTHING I HAVE EVER READ THAT SUGGESTS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HE HAS READ …now working a full time job, being a father, and teaching…I don’t have the kind of spare time to sit down and reference everything that I talk about here on OSS…nor do I expect that Dave or you have the same kind of time…so unless you are going to promise that ever tid bit of info you provide and every opinion that you give out will be followed with a reference that we can go and look up…like we want to…then I will have to say NO! I am not particularly concerned if it “washes” with you as I have a life outside of this forum that takes up way more time than I wish to contribute to backing up every Hey In Empi…found in Best Karate, Dynamic Karate…blah blah and such I am not going to sit back and write a reference for things I have read….I have also been doing Karate for over 35 years and have lost more books than some people have owned! So, in short No , I will not reference everything I write out and if you have a counter view…DEBATE ME…Hell I am not even all that good at debating…Talk about the ideas and think about them…if you don’t agree at the end and want references…still not going to do it so move along. You can find a tone of things on Karate, read them and come to your own conclusions. Want me to “share” fine but don’t make it work…if you want to make it work….refer back to my rates! Now it may be, not unlike myself, that you have read a lot of stuff and these conclusions have grown and formed as part of a holistic collection of everything you have read, practiced, experienced and been taught etc. Which makes it very hard to give specific references... Again, I don’t promise to adhere to any “Scientific method” here, I may be a bit more scientist than not but this is not my job, I don’t get paid for this and refuse to go and find tones of resource material for those that are to lazy to do a bit of reading and research on their own. Yes like everyone the sum of my knowledge in Karate is the sum of my research over a long period of time and to be frank I did not sit and make notes on resources that I read and followed to come to the conclusions I have come to and found the info that I have…what Kind of anal retentive moron do you think I am ….Wait…don’t answer that! Anyway this is the basis of the scientific method that underpins all aspects of modern society - we hypothesis based on observation, we test through experimentation, we reference, we open it out for peer review and criticism.. (not unlike OSS ) I am not here to be examined and expect to give references, and normally I don’t ask for anything other than “Prove it” meaning “Debate it..” Give a logical explanation and let’s try and hash out a middle ground or dispel someone’s misconceptions. I don’t see many debatable issues that can use Science in Karate, outside of PSI of a Gyaku zuki and even then we have to say the best PSI of one person as someone with a great punch may make it look great and others…well not so much. The Scientific method is best kept in its proper place, this is more of a liberal arts debate about unwritten or poorly documented history and philosophy! Lets get rid of the false sense of scientific and really dig into things….talking about Karate often leads farther away from Science than some are comfortable to admit Just a small caveat... this can also apply to those accounts from okinawa. often they are written down having been passed by word of mouth a few times first or the hazy filter of a fallible memory over time...( this is somewhat demonstrated in the literature where there are a number references to the same shipwrecked-sailor-hiding-in-cave-teaches-fighting-techniques-story referring to different kata's... (kenkudai/Kushanku and Gankaku/chinto as an example) This is true…then we read other accounts of how Kushanku was a military liaison and Chinto was a Pirate or maybe a merchant…you have to use your filters and come to your own conclusions. Again, I simply don’t have the time, need or want to go back and reference every article I have ever read, every book I have ever read and every story I have ever been told. If I happen to remember the source I will let you all know…other than that you will have to do the research yourself to prove or disprove me like all the stories we have to filter from the age old masters…sorry, but unless the OSS is going to hire me to be an official researcher and pay my bills…that’s the best you can expect or that I expect of anyone!
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Post by th0mas on Jan 9, 2013 16:44:08 GMT
lol for a man with limited time you do sure write a lot....or maybe you're just a very very fast typist. I absolutely accept the time challenge here and I am not suggesting that on this forum we are doing peer-review scientific journal research. Nor do I want to have to provide a reference for every comment or observation I make... However if there is a specific quote or reference that would help move the debate forward it would seem sensible to provide it..do you not think? Final point... the scientific method is not just about lab coats, test tubes and Psi measurements. It is a way of approaching critical thinking and I absolutely believe it has everything to do with karate training and kata application...in fact the lack of good scientific method results in the no-touch knockout, chi balls, Professor Hanshi-grandmasters and gold lamae-gi's IMHO. Here is a good site.. skeptoid.com/skeptic.php
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Post by kensei on Jan 9, 2013 16:58:02 GMT
lol for a man with limited time you do sure write a lot....or maybe you're just a very very fast typist. I absolutely accept the time challenge here and I am not suggesting that on this forum we are doing peer-review scientific journal research. Nor do I want to have to provide a reference for every comment or observation I make... However if there is a specific quote or reference that would help move the debate forward it would seem sensible to provide it..do you not think? Final point... the scientific method is not just about lab coats, test tubes and Psi measurements. It is a way of approaching critical thinking and I absolutely believe it has everything to do with karate training and kata application...in fact the lack of good scientific method results in the no-touch knockout, chi balls, Professor Hanshi-grandmasters and gold lamae-gi's IMHO. Here is a good site.. skeptoid.com/skeptic.php I type very fast and I half agree with your statment about scientific methods when it comes to some aspects of Karate...but I am not talking about teaching Karate am I...I am talking about chattnig with people over the net about Karate.....very different kind of situation and the standards are very different as well. Besides...all I ask is that A) conversations are intellengent and argued with respect and B) that I am not asked to do all the work for someone when I am just talking about things...If you are so lazy as to not GOOGLE something then it is not my job to keep up your end of things as well!
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Post by daveb on Jan 9, 2013 23:42:46 GMT
Just a slight overreaction there James?
I just asked where you heard that particular tale s it's not one I've çome across. Not too strange a request in a discussion group for people to share information on. People can't debate your ideas if they can't access the same sources. All we are able to do is take your word that what you say is correct.
That being said I for one don't expect people to go around with a karate reference library. A simple "can't remember where exactly but it may have been in one of Chibana's books..." would do nicely. Not every question is a challenge.
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Post by kensei on Jan 10, 2013 12:51:38 GMT
Just a slight overreaction there James? Not at all, it was written with no stress or aggression at all, just wanted to be 200% clear as this has come up before and it always seems the refuge of people who are either A) Brainwashed and in capable of self created thought or B) those that are so anal about things that they cant relax. And while I admint the "Provide it with a list of your sources" kind of argument is annoying I actually have come to expect it most of the time. Also, I type 75-80 words a minute so some people think my being wordy is me taking a very long time to enter something...not really, Its just what I am thinking. I just asked where you heard that particular tale s it's not one I've çome across. Not too strange a request in a discussion group for people to share information on. People can't debate your ideas if they can't access the same sources. All we are able to do is take your word that what you say is correct. That being said I for one don't expect people to go around with a karate reference library. A simple "can't remember where exactly but it may have been in one of Chibana's books..." would do nicely. Not every question is a challenge. I think you will find that anyone that has had more than a single decade of Karate training will fall under the "I think I was told it/read it in a book/lecture a few years back catagory however so most of the "Challenge you to prove it" Crap is basically a waste of time and a stalling method that some people use to say "See you can not quote the book, page and paragraph...so you are full of it" and it really is a sad tactic. I also fell into a trap a few years back on the old 24FC site in which the owner challenged me to a similar situation and I spent two days combing through the sources I thought I saw the info in...found it...sourced it for him and one of the other lads on the site went and used it for a book that he wrote and kind of built off of it to generate a crappy rip off of an idea I had. Not the same thing but I tend to prefer if someone is going to benefit from somthing I am saying that they do the work for themselves to reference it....The story is a bit deeper than that and it was by no way the owner of the sites fault...but the other guy scammed me and I was a bit burnt after that.
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