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Post by daveb on Oct 28, 2012 15:57:53 GMT
I seemed to have joined too late to contribute to the main thread and I fully expect this thread to be deleted and my membership terminated. However, I think that this is an important subject and relevant to karateka of all levels and especially to some of the membership here. My views are those of an outsider to this group and offer a different perspective to most of what has been said so far.
Unlike many of you I never met Steve Hyland in person, however I did encounter Fujicolt many times and Fujicolt was an egotistical cyber bully. Anyone who disagreed with him and refused to back down was subjected to an escalating campaign of ridicule and abuse. He was supported in these campaigns by his followers/friends who turned a blind eye to his bad behavior. Fujicolt's bad behavior includes threatening forum members (which got him kicked off of Karate Underground) and a racist rant against the son of a famous Japanese karateka which preceded his exit from Shotokan Way and the opening of this forum where his "in your face" style could go unchallenged. Between these events are years of shouting down dissenting views with less than polite methods, every time supported by his loyal followers.
Surely this is just axe grinding, right? Actually no, because Fujicolt is not the first to inspire such supporters, in fact I'd say it was pretty common in karate and in martial arts in general. The status of Sensei or Master or sifu seem to easily become excuses not to question and to fall into line behind individuals regardless of their behaviour.
My question is why? Is it really just that we let karate become so important to us that we view those more knowledgeable than ourselves as being automatically better people. Is it to do with deference to rank being trained into us by the militaristic hierarchy of the arts? Or is it a natural desire to follow someone else's drum rather than stand alone and it just happens to be the most self assured and loudest shouters who can tap into that burried instinct?
In my opinion it is something we should try to stamp out. I do not for one second suggest that Fujicolt getting away with being an ass online in any way enabled his abhorrent behavior in life, but it's not only online that people like him behave so bullishly as is evidenced by the string of court cases against him. Equally I do not suggest that anyone here who knew him in person could have prevented him doing what did, but as I said, Steve Hyland is not the only one.
Perhaps situations like this are what will finally cause karateka to abandon ranks and uniforms and any other pseudo military fashions that elevate people above others just because they can punch well.
As I said, I believe this is a relevant issue for karateka of all levels, for if we don't take this opportunity to reevaluate to whom we give our loyalty and why then I think an opportunity to learn will have been missed and the consequences of leaving such people unchallenged can be dire.
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 28, 2012 16:49:24 GMT
Hi Dave B (just guessing ) First off, could you sign your full name on your posts, just a general rule we have here. Personally I see nothing in you post that would warrant "banning" or "termination", it's a valid opinion and not expressed in a particularly confrontational way. Obviously Steve is the prompt for opening the thread (and even his "friends" would be hard pushed to deny that there is a good measure of truth in what you say) but as we are trying to move on if we can keep it away from the individual it will save raking over things (yet again). However the broader subject of the "sensei can say (or do) no wrong" is a concern that many of us feel and certainly a subject well worth discussing, as it has been on and off recently (and if you read back, not so recently). There is a big problem within karate that students in general are not encouraged to think or question, by it's very nature it seems part of the attraction for many to karate is the pseudo Japanese culture that attaches itself to it and we somehow make ourselves "special" by adhering to what is (let face it) some BS mock philosophy (just my personal opinion, obviously). So if we can keep it civil, why not discuss?
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Post by kensei on Oct 28, 2012 17:23:59 GMT
Here it is in a nut shell. the truth is that Steve "had his moments" and was a bit aggressive and abrasive and many of us, those many thing are "his friends" pointed this out to him on many many occasions and mostly he would agree after he cooled down. He had one hell of a temper and despite being very smart and knowing more about application based Karate than most of the others on other forums he was, like others, a bit of a bully at times and often went off on tangents...I dont think any of us here will deny this.
However, He was not the worst of those that I have run into on forums that were smug, condescending and supported by people blinded for some reason by a person. The worst of them ran a forum that he actually shut down so he could blog and just preach with out having to argue with others about his points.
The other thing that people have to realize when reading the rhetoric that DaveB put on here is that the forming of this forum was because of a set of timing issues that came up. First our good friend who ran the KU for years felt he could no longer run a forum, life got in the way and he stepped away from that part of his life. And I totally respect that as it can get away on you easily become more than it should be if you are not careful.
After him Angela started a forum that had great promise, the Karate Research forum. She ran into a life crisis and it folded faster than you could imagine. The Karate research forum was short lived but could have been so much more. Dod also formed his own forum and I find that it actually had lived up to what the KRF was supposed to be.
Yes, Steve was given the boot from the Shotokan way and also the KU but his showing up here was not something that should be seen as anything more than it was. He Knew Dod personally and he came along with the process of setting up.....So did I and so did so many more and I have never been banned from the KU or the Shotokan way. In fact I wrote and write many articles for the Shotokan way and had been an active poster on the KU, Shotokan way and KRS...does not mean that Dod set this great forum up for me.
Now, Not to give this topic more than it needs but I think its easy to say that Steve is gone...for a very long time.... and we are still all here and have the goal to create and open forum were we can all benefit from a place to come and chat about Karate. AND NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON...cuz if we are going to start bad mouthing any ex-member or any personality in Karate then we are just as bad as those other sites out their!
Steve is gone, the subject is getting old and rather pathetic. No one is supporting Steve at this point more than saying he was a smart guy....lets drop it and move on to chatting about the things that make this forum what it is....Karate!
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Post by kensei on Oct 28, 2012 17:24:42 GMT
Here it is in a nut shell. the truth is that Steve "had his moments" and was a bit aggressive and abrasive and many of us, those many thing are "his friends" pointed this out to him on many many occasions and mostly he would agree after he cooled down. He had one hell of a temper and despite being very smart and knowing more about application based Karate than most of the others on other forums he was, like others, a bit of a bully at times and often went off on tangents...I dont think any of us here will deny this.
However, He was not the worst of those that I have run into on forums that were smug, condescending and supported by people blinded for some reason by a person. The worst of them ran a forum that he actually shut down so he could blog and just preach with out having to argue with others about his points.
The other thing that people have to realize when reading the rhetoric that DaveB put on here is that the forming of this forum was because of a set of timing issues that came up. First our good friend who ran the KU for years felt he could no longer run a forum, life got in the way and he stepped away from that part of his life. And I totally respect that as it can get away on you easily become more than it should be if you are not careful.
After him Angela started a forum that had great promise, the Karate Research forum. She ran into a life crisis and it folded faster than you could imagine. The Karate research forum was short lived but could have been so much more. Dod also formed his own forum and I find that it actually had lived up to what the KRF was supposed to be.
Yes, Steve was given the boot from the Shotokan way and also the KU but his showing up here was not something that should be seen as anything more than it was. He Knew Dod personally and he came along with the process of setting up.....So did I and so did so many more and I have never been banned from the KU or the Shotokan way. In fact I wrote and write many articles for the Shotokan way and had been an active poster on the KU, Shotokan way and KRS...does not mean that Dod set this great forum up for me.
Now, Not to give this topic more than it needs but I think its easy to say that Steve is gone...for a very long time.... and we are still all here and have the goal to create and open forum were we can all benefit from a place to come and chat about Karate. AND NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON...cuz if we are going to start bad mouthing any ex-member or any personality in Karate then we are just as bad as those other sites out their!
Steve is gone, the subject is getting old and rather pathetic. No one is supporting Steve at this point more than saying he was a smart guy....lets drop it and move on to chatting about the things that make this forum what it is....Karate!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 28, 2012 18:22:51 GMT
I agree completely with Kensei on this. Lets consign him to history and get on with the reason we all log in to this site for, Karate. And DaveB, whoever you are, I may not agree with everything you just stated but I defend your right to do so.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 28, 2012 21:27:11 GMT
This is getting old, however at least this post was in a different light, but in reality nothing that hasn`t already been covered. I must admit to being uncomfortable in some of the communication on another site with Dave & Kyle & on this site we lost Chuck. However I do agree that Steve was a smart karate-man & made you think. Also to be prepared to back up what you posted. If I remember right Dave ( I don`t know if it`s the same one) was invited to courses to help increase his knowledge, as some of his claims or ideas didn`t make sense. I think that most of us that are active on this site have the same goals in mind & not one person should dominate our ideas. We should respect each others experience & help each other grow in our knowledge & experience. Also we have a right to express our opinion as long as it is done in an ethically correct manner. I may challenge your idea, as others sometimes challenge mine, but that is what a healthy debate constitutes & helps us learn. Also what is or isn`t important to me, may or may not be important to you. So can we please stop `Flogging a dead horse` & get on with karate!!! By the way daveb welcome to OSS, lets just stay on track shall we...
Osu
Paul B
P
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Post by daveb on Oct 29, 2012 1:00:21 GMT
Bob, thank you for your comments. Kensei, Paul and Jim, for people who want to move on from talking about Hyland it is odd you chose to talk about him (or about the fact he is being talked about) rather than the topic questions.
Kensei, I did say that I wrote with an outsiders perspective.
Jim, I am who I say I am, what about my comments would cause you to question that? Whatever your concern over my identity I appreciate and agree with your stance, but I am not here to simply say? Please do challenge my views, as it is only through bring challenged that we grow.
Paul, I am the same David you remember, but your recollection proves precisely my point about Fujicolt's behavior: 1, not once was a flaw with my ideas and comments ever raised - they were ridiculed without a basis for ridicule and without being discussed. 2, Fujicolt made those offers while fully aware through private discussion that I was near crippled through back injury and raising a young baby. The offers were made to give the appearance of reasonable discourse and an amiable nature to cover lies and abuse.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 29, 2012 3:11:51 GMT
Ok Dave fair enough! As mentioned there was some comments that I was uncomfortable with & I`ll admit that you were addressed in a negative manner. It is too bad that your ideas were treated as such & not inspiring a good debate. I apologize for any contribution that I may have made to your feeling put down. I hope that your back is feeling better & I`m sure that the young baby must be a toddler by now & you are kept on your toes with parenthood. Now to address the point that you have made. Yes it is very unfortunate that there are people out there who take their position of authority & use it to abuse others. I personally think thsat people who put down others to make themselves look more important, are doing just the opposite & making themselves look small. However abandoning rank & uniforms won`t solve this issue, it`s just so sad that there are those in leadership roles thet let it go to their head. Years ago I read an article with Fumio Demura & it went something like this. I would never encourage the title of Shihan as it is such an honour to be called Sensei. When we are in leadership roles we should understand that this is an honour & a priviledge & accept the responsibility accordingly.
Osu
Paul B
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Post by yangshangpoo on Oct 29, 2012 8:00:52 GMT
well peronaly i think he should be de belted stripped of everthing end of
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 29, 2012 9:46:35 GMT
Now this is a prime example of what I was talking about. "Stripped" by who and of what?
I shows the belief that somehow all this karate, rank, belts, honor thing is all real (which is why we have so many egos and followers), we need to come to terms with the fact that IT IS all made up, there is no gold standard, there is no owner of karate with the final word on who is where, there is no relevance to your grade outside of your own group and even within your group I'll bet there is no real consistency.
I'm not saying that a lot of people haven't worked hard to get where they are, that there aren't great benefits to studying an art (which is a big part of my life) or that there aren't a lot of fine people in karate with high ideals and enviable levels of skill and ability, BUT invariably, for an art that promotes "perfection of character" and "humility" everyone seems overly fond of their place in the hierarchy and how "special" that makes them compared to everyone else. Typically it's those who spout these high ideals the loudest who are worst offenders when it comes to being "special". Karate people are just that, people, with all their variety, wonder, faults and failings and if they are special it's because they just are NOT because karate made them so.
Back to the original quote now, Mr Yangshagpoo, if you have anything of worth to add to the forum then please sign your name and join in the debates that exist (and be welcome to do so), if not then please take the vegetarian option! (Frankie Boyle, look it up!)
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Post by malk103 on Oct 29, 2012 10:42:23 GMT
This is not just about SH but to pick up on a few points. Surely a leader/instructor/senior with an empty Dojo makes all rank or grade worthless and pointless? Until we get a national or international group that can form a baseline for what each rank stands for then it's still an individual groups honouring system. Likewise with Forums, when you've been kicked off a few then maybe it's time to realise that you are the one with the problem. It's easy to put people on pedestals and not question them and to blindly follow everything said or done, I would say it's even part of the discovery process of Karate. I get people saying to me that Sensei so-and-so is great and remember when I went through similar stages. I am now more likely to see the good points about them and to question anything said by them, but in a polite way of course. If anything good has come from recent developments then it should be a warning for all Karate-ka that the ones who have gone before aren't always better or supreme. Also a warning for MA forums not to be over-run with a single person or to allow bad behaviour. I admin on another forum so know that they can bring out the worst in some people. I'm now off to talk about halfway positions in Kata as it's time to put an amen to this episode.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Oct 29, 2012 12:54:35 GMT
Hello Bob Oh dear, do we have yet another cyber bully emerging ? Your response to Mr Yangshangpoo (you spelt it Yangshagpoo!!) is he can take a Frankie Boyle Vegetarian option which if you do indeed "google" it reads "you can f**k off. Don't you think you could have been more polite to Mr Yangshangpoo and the membership that reads the forum? Best Regards Allan
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 29, 2012 13:20:11 GMT
I am perfectly happy to be civil and polite to anybody who signs on with an open and honest opinion and if he signs on and follows up in a sensible manner then I am perfectly happy to apologise. Just trying to avoid a sudden influx of band wagon jumping which this post looks like.
The spelling mistake is just that, a spelling mistake (I wouldn't read any more into it than that).
We obviously have got off on the wrong foot Allan and I have noticed (more than once) that you have directly and indirectly tried infer a link in my actions to those of Mr. Hyland (just be aware that bullying comes in many forms before you point the finger). It may just be a misunderstanding and I sincerely hope it is.
It has never been my intention to bully anybody and if I have come across that way then I sincerely apologise, I have always tried to be polite (and sometimes, in very provocative circumstances, I have just kept quiet).
Still, since I seem to be creating the wrong impression for users of the forum (which has seen enough grief lately and is trying to move on) I will refrain from posting further.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Oct 29, 2012 14:23:27 GMT
Hello Bob
Just merely an observation, nothing more nothing less. Apology accepted.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by makoto on Oct 29, 2012 14:56:36 GMT
I would like to say to the people running these forums you let the wrong guy run these forums. SH was a god on this site. No one opposed him. He was bad in PM land. He drove off a few good people with his crap in PM. Glad he is gone. Now maybe this site can grow. But, you guys did let him get on with too much. Yes, he was nice in the open, not as bad as he used to be. But, he dominated every thread at times, and no one challenged him. A lot of the stuff he had to say was good, but it was never perfect nor could it be challenged.
This forum has egg on its face. Time for you guys to wipe it off.
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Post by yangshangpoo on Oct 29, 2012 15:22:47 GMT
im deeply hurt by the bullying ive just taken from bob,i think you stick up for sh to much my friend ,
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Post by Dod Watt on Oct 29, 2012 16:52:42 GMT
I am sick fed up with this, you all speak about bullying, well we have be bullied into putting up with the constant flow of bad mouthing about this situation, we did not want to run this topic as we new it would digress, but because of pressure we did, and now we are being condemned for doing so, so let me tell you again, this is a forum for the development of Shotokan Karate, and this thread is not productive in the way of us expanding our knowledge in that, all this is about is Steve, tell me where we benefit from that, I don't condone the actions of anyone that has the same convictions as Steve and either does this forum, all this is going to achieve is members arguing with one another as to their opinion of keeping it running or not, so this is what I'd like to do, I'll let this run for another couple of days to allow you to have your say (without fighting) then I'll lock it, as there is nothing good going to come out of this, please let me know if you agree and if not why.
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Post by th0mas on Oct 29, 2012 16:53:22 GMT
Oh dear... couple of points
To Yangshangpoo, the reason we ask people to put their name on their profile is to prevent anonymous trolling. Currently you look like a troll to me. If you don't value what you post enough to by put your name to it, then what value should we make of your comments?
Secondly to Allan, please please please will you stop with the passive aggressive comments and the annoying point scoring. Maybe you don't mean to come across that way, but you do seem to like to get the last word in and try and score a final point no matter how puerile. Just an observation by the way, nothing more nothing less. I look forward to accepting your apology.
..and finally for the record: Unlike some other people here, I have actually met Bob and although he has the necessary physical presence to be a bully (he must be all of 6'5") he is an absolute gentleman.
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Post by yangshangpoo on Oct 29, 2012 17:40:49 GMT
thomas im under cover ,just thought id join in with the banter , and for the record ive met thomas and can say hes a absolute ,answers on a post card
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Post by th0mas on Oct 29, 2012 17:45:22 GMT
hmmm... I see you've managed my expectations appropriately.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 17:49:02 GMT
it's all become a bit of an embarressment. Best thing to do is create a thread that says SH is no longer with us he has been convicted. The forum has discussed it and moved on. Then lock it and delete this thread.
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Post by kensei on Oct 29, 2012 17:56:02 GMT
You know what, I am at my wits end here guys. I am trying to let you all act like adults but no matte how hard I try...you prove that you can not!
The site is about Karate, steve was not an owner and ONE person owns the site with which some of us volunteer to run.
For DaveB, we would not be talking about steve again if you had not brought him up. Had a bad row with him him did you...who didnt, join the friggin club mate! He was a bully, he was arrogant, he was also right most of the time which really pissed me off!
I am not going to "for the record" again about how steve just visited and he did not own the place, he just posted the most or any other kind of support for Dod and the web site. He does not need it. Through this whole thing he has done nothing wrong. He has supported all of you crazy, pajama wearing guys and given us a site to come and chat about Karate. TO share our ideas about our crazy hobby!
Now, I am going to say this one time and one time only and I am SURE that Dod is onboard with this one.....A) this site is about Karate and not steve Hyland or any single person. We come here to chat about Karate and Share our ideas, events and the like. B)Those that dont SIGN their names are Trolls and we delete trolls. If you dont add your name by the next post...given we have it posted in several places...I delete you and ban your IP as we salute you and FLUSH THE TOILET in your honor!
C) for thoes infighting....take it to the PM and or go get a room, you bicker more than me and the wife!
Get with it chaps, you saw the Karate Research forum go tits up because of this kind of crap and I have see countes other forums that could not hold a candle to what we are trying to do here.
Time to buck up and remember why were are here. and if you dont share the vision....go someplace else and wine about why you are not liked and call everyone else a bully when they dont agree with you.
I think this topic has met its conclusion! IF anyone brings up Steve or Harry Cook in any way....be warned your IP may be banned as we say Bye bye to rotten apples!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 30, 2012 3:49:54 GMT
Thanks Kensei you have saved me the trouble of sending you a PM suggesting locking & shutting down this thread & any like it. We tried to do the right thing & let people air out their thoughts, but it has gotten out of hand. Mistakes were made yes, but who doesn`t make them, we were not the first!!! I think that everything that needed to be said has been said, so lets shut this down!! I hope that some of the new names will hang in there & make a positive contribution..
Osu
Paul B
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