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Post by grimmjow968541 on Oct 28, 2012 18:49:48 GMT
No disrespect to the sports karate people. We were taught since white belt to keep tradition but even though we will try hard through every generation a little bit of tradition is lost.
Kata for example some clubs over here in South Africa just threw away kata and focused on fighting. Whats your opinion on this. Tradition ? or do we just throw it all away?
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 28, 2012 21:33:20 GMT
Hi Connor; good question & I`m sure a lot have their own views. Without kata, karate would be more like kick boxing, in my opinion.. By the way, what part of South Africa are you from?
Osu
Paul B
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Post by grimmjow968541 on Oct 29, 2012 4:42:37 GMT
Gauteng -- pretoria. You know anyone from here?
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Post by malk103 on Oct 29, 2012 11:00:18 GMT
Kata is Karate and fighting - or rather defending.
At first they seem like dance routines, they can tell you if a student is ready for their next grade by how well they have learnt the Kata and how well they perform it. Later on they become a lot more than just routines. Eventually when you start to discover what each move can be used for then the Kata come alive, you can then explore many Kumite drills taken directly from Kata, you can also add several Kihon combinations to your training.
I would encourage you to seek out Iain Abernethy and John Burke, look at the video's on their websites or get hold of one of their books.
Kata are full of principles of self defence, on grappling, throwing and plenty of effective counter attacks to violence, the applications that can be applied to each move or sequence of moves are many. I can fill an entire lesson with 1 Kata and I still don't think I can do them justice!
The best thing I have read about Bassai Dai Kata is that it doesn't contain any blocks....
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Post by kensei on Oct 29, 2012 11:40:42 GMT
Those that do Karate with out Kata are doing Kick boxing. I can see that some people do not have the patience to study Kata. Hell even our traditional folk dont have the same patience. Watch students Rocket through ranks to get to " the good stuff" not realizing they are doing the good stuff.
The trick is to have and promote competition and do it in as traditional a way as possible because we swerve way to far away from tradition for to often in tournament Karate.
The Key is to make every day in the Dojo 10 times more important than any one minute in a tournament!
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Post by grimmjow968541 on Oct 30, 2012 5:26:56 GMT
I'm glad so many people prefer traditional:p
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Post by kensei on Oct 30, 2012 12:36:56 GMT
Better yet, lets define traditional!
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Post by grimmjow968541 on Oct 30, 2012 17:27:02 GMT
I just want to ask a question no disrespect meant but in Bassai Dai the first one an attack for the head? Like in Qanqudai ( im guessing the spelling here) right after the migieri ( again guessing the spelling ) its a step attack to the head with the middle fingers knuckle. (it be really nice if someone could give me a link to all the terms >< )
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Post by kensei on Oct 30, 2012 17:55:43 GMT
I just want to ask a question no disrespect meant but in Bassai Dai the first one an attack for the head? Like in Qanqudai ( im guessing the spelling here) right after the migieri ( again guessing the spelling ) its a step attack to the head with the middle fingers knuckle. (it be really nice if someone could give me a link to all the terms >< ) Confused a bit here connor, you mean Kanku dai?? can you count the movements and let me know what movement you mean? I will try and help out a bit then.
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Post by grimmjow968541 on Oct 30, 2012 18:52:38 GMT
its around 26 if my counts correct:P
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Post by Bob Davis on Oct 30, 2012 19:47:57 GMT
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Post by malk103 on Oct 30, 2012 20:22:06 GMT
Don't worry about the spelling, I always get it wrong.....
Sometimes its best to describe in English to make sure we are all on the same bit. I think move 26 is around about where you move your fists upwards together, raise your right knee, step forwards and do a double fist strike to what would be the ribs area, then half step forward with Chudan punch.
As always with Kata what may seem like an attack to a certain area could be something completely different or just the end position of a move.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 30, 2012 23:17:55 GMT
Actually Mal, I believe that he was referring to Kanku Dai there & where the move is the same as the first` kiai` in heian yondan.
Anyway, back to the question on what is `traditional`? A couple of years back in Instructor training I was asked to demo on this subject. The class was led by Sensei Hiroyoshi Okazaki. I went onto explaining the deep stance, the bring power through center, the compression & expansion thing, all about the 3 k`s, every thing that I could think of as far as what makes our training `traditional`. My peers were even nodding giving me the impression that I was on the right track. Well here is what I learned. What makes us traditional is; We rei when we enter the dojo, we rei & say oss to other members, we line up according to rank, we go into seiza, we do makuso, we rei to the shomen, we call for sensei, we rei to sensei, we have seniors on one end of the line we train in. Traditionally this would be close to the entrance. After class we repeat the line up & add in the dojo kun, we wait for Sensei to leave the training area before `tate`. So what makes us traditional is the formal way that we show respect, weather it be to the training area, each other, to our instructor or to the founders of the system & to our countries flags for that matter. I`ll give you an example of how this becomes so much a part of who we become. Years ago I attended a JKD workshop/ seminar weekend. One of our classes was in a facility that was used by the local Kyukushinkai club. On entering the training area I noticed their sign on the wall & what was obviously their shomen, I stopped faced the Kyukushinkai shomen & bowed. The host of the JKD seminar came & told me with a chuckle in his voice, `Paul you don`t have to do that`my reply was `Oh yes I do`. So I have learned that the way that we are taught to demonstrate respect, more than anything is what makes us `traditional`..
Osu
Paul B
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Post by nathanso on Oct 31, 2012 0:04:56 GMT
Paul-I think that traditional when applied to shotokan is a misnomer, since many of the "traditions" were introduced in the 20th century. Belts, gis, and long stances certainly are. Oss- not only is that modern, we never said "Oss" (or the dojo kun, for that matter) in Okazaki's dojo in the 1960's. (We did "Hai" all the time though.) Oshsima's SKA, which I would argue is closer to what GF taught in post-war Japan than what the JKA and its offshoots practice, considers the use of "Oss" to be rude (as do non-karate Japanese speakers). I won't disagree with the general concept of showing "respect", as that is so integral to Japanese culture, although some may quibble and say that you are showing courtesy.
I think that traditional, i.e., pre-1920's, karate was kata-centric and that kata was taught as a way to practice self-defense. I think that the loss of traditional karate in many ways can be traced to both GF's post-war teaching methods and the changes introduced by his successors.
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Post by Rob S on Oct 31, 2012 8:23:05 GMT
Paul-I think that traditional when applied to shotokan is a misnomer, since many of the "traditions" were introduced in the 20th century. Belts, gis, and long stances certainly are. Oss- not only is that modern, we never said "Oss" (or the dojo kun, for that matter) in Okazaki's dojo in the 1960's. (We did "Hai" all the time though.) Oshsima's SKA, which I would argue is closer to what GF taught in post-war Japan than what the JKA and its offshoots practice, considers the use of "Oss" to be rude (as do non-karate Japanese speakers). I won't disagree with the general concept of showing "respect", as that is so integral to Japanese culture, although some may quibble and say that you are showing courtesy. I think that traditional, i.e., pre-1920's, karate was kata-centric and that kata was taught as a way to practice self-defense. I think that the loss of traditional karate in many ways can be traced to both GF's post-war teaching methods and the changes introduced by his successors. I tend to upport this view. Shotokan is not really a traditional version of karate. We cannot claim to be traditional when we are less than a century old. We are what some would describe as a hybrid. There are good points to Shotokan, but there are many that clearly show that Shotokan devolved into a sport. Even the practice in a 'normal' dojo becomes kihon and kata centric. And these have been adapted to fit the sport mentality. I believe that the karate of Nakayama Masatoshi was devised to fit the concept of making karate part sport and part old style. The applications shown on most Nakayama style videos are all but unbelievable. Look at those produced by him. We could agree with Mr. Yokota, and accept they were made deliberately simple and misleading ... or we could wonder whether or not there was any real understanding of the old ways and intentions. Nage waza is certainly missing form most of the applications they show. The question must surely be 'what is traditional' and what is 'sport'? Karate as intended needed to be practiced as a yakusoku kumite, or the injury levels would have been horrendous - even in the old days. So they brought in tournaments, and kendo-esque training methodology. If we look at Kendo we can of course see it is good, and carries many of the traditions with it. Tournament/sport has become a large part of its image, but there are traditional elements retained.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 8:28:50 GMT
I think Elmar in the quotes thread defined traditional as being 'classical JKA karate'. In my view it sums it up as being a packaged, branded and marketed concept.
I prefer to think of traditional karate as being for self defence and sport karate as being for PE or tournaments.
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Post by malk103 on Oct 31, 2012 9:45:22 GMT
Actually Mal, I believe that he was referring to Kanku Dai there & where the move is the same as the first` kiai` in heian yondan....... My appologies, off track as per normal. The Back fist strike can be an attack on the head, in Yondan the other hand moves downward first possibly clearing a path for the back fist (Uraken). Another application in Bassai Dai is taking the starting position of right fist in left hand as a finger/hand grab, as you step forward and twist your hand/fist you are applying a wrist lock and twist to the attacker. This in theory could see them drop to their knees, especially as you finish with your feet together, it would assume that you are not too worried about your balance and would be applying a downward force. There are probably others but with any Kata application there could be more! Just a thought - what if you had just caught hold of a foot from a lame kick? The twist would then see them face down on the floor. Some good answers to the Traditional question above, I tend to agree.
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Post by nathanso on Oct 31, 2012 23:18:12 GMT
I think Elmar in the quotes thread defined traditional as being 'classical JKA karate'. In my view it sums it up as being a packaged, branded and marketed concept. I prefer to think of traditional karate as being for self defence and sport karate as being for PE or tournaments. Elmar had a great quote on a previous forum about the external trappings that many associate with "traditional" karate- I think he referred to it as the "Japanese psychosphere."
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Post by mikeflanagan on Nov 20, 2012 13:05:04 GMT
Tradition is a funny word. Anything can be considered a tradition if you've done it more than once already. I prefer to think in terms of what's widely viewed as 'traditional' rather than what could be strictly described as such.
I could argue that Shotokan and other modern styles are not traditional compared to Okinawan Karate. But if you ask a lot of different people what they think of as traditional karate you'll keep getting some recurring themes: - wearing gi's (usually white) and belts - lining up in grade order - large scale dynamic movements with deep(ish) stances and high kicks - Kihon, kata & kumite - Japanese terminology
So when I personally talk about 'traditional karate' that's what I'm referring to.
Then there's sport karate. Clearly there's an overlap with traditional karate. But how much overlap? The devil is in the detail, but who cares really, as long you a) enjoy what you do and b) understand its purpose.
And there's what I think of as classical karate, ie. Okinawan karate which is unaffected either by the ritual or technique of traditional karate. But this is vanishingly rare. Almost everyone who does Okinawan karate has some degree of Japanese/traditional influence.
Personally I'd say I lean very heavily towards the classical approach, but there are certainly some 'traditional' influences there. Its a deliberate intention that there are no sport influences, except where they happen to coincide with my core goals. The most important thing I think is to understand what you want out of martial art training, then choose the art/school/method that best fits that goal.
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