We teach more than the 9 throws proscribed by Funakoshi but would not expect them to be demonstrated in a grading until at least 2nd kyu. They are exposed to throws very early on as bunkai to their kata ( to topple a folding screen comes in at Hein nidan )
Absolutely Tom, even at beginner level it is a neglected aspect of self defence.
I was once caught up in a nasty altercation which I won't bore you with the details of but managed to grab one of the assailants and tuck and roll ending up on top with a decent choke on. Ukemi was the decisive thing there not the choke or set up.
I fell off my pushbike years ago, slipped on black ice, stupidly wasn't wearing a helmet, but didn't really hurt myself. The girl in front of me hit her head on the road, she was ok but obviously very groggy and obviously it could have been much worse.
Also, couple of months ago I slipped on all the snow and ice that was on the pavement, executed an almost textbook side breakfall, there was no one there to see it :-(
A course spring to mind as well I was on the year before last. Part of the course was one hour of Aikido, and you could tell who the Karate students where as behind all of them where tennis ball sized circles of sweat where their heads kept hitting the mat lol.
Strangley non of the karate clubs I have been to ever do throwing techniques. I know a few throws from my days in jujitsu that i can still pull off. Funny my instructor complains if i stick to the same old block and counters in jyu ippon but if I go for a throw he aslo complains! Bloody politics!
I found that these where practiced to begin with but once you know them it easy to stop them. The flying sissors always worked well. So went to the usual Judo and Aikido sessions to make up the short fall.
Foot sweep of back and front leg are possible at normal speed but I didn't find these 9 throws the best, there are easier ones.
Byobudaoshi- To topple a folding screen. Block their right hand with your right hand grab wrist and step into armpit and turn. Most karate ka focus and then stop they are going nowhere once you have blocked them.
Komange- Spinning top. block upper punch step in and drive chin back.
Kubiwa- To encircle the neck. block then step in round the neck.
Katawaguruma- Half wheel. Cross block then spin round throwing on to their backs.
Tsubamegashi- Vturning swallow.
Yaridama- To spear a ball. Relies on the uke over extending their punch they never do
Taniotoshi- to push off a cliff. Punch in sides and pull legs off the ground.
Sakatsuchi- To hammer upside dow. Turn them upside down and pile their head into the floor.
The problem with these throws is that you block and destroy any momentum you have. You then have to get them moving again. This is made almost impossible by Karate ka's habit of punching then focusing and locking out stopping any movement in the direction of the strike.
To make them work make them really angry so they are trying to kill you so they attack you with some commitment. Insulting their mothers is a good start.
There is an instant when these will work once they are in a stance it is too late. You need to get them just before they go in to a satnce and destroy it before it forms.
So there is an instance where these will work they need to flow lose the flow and they won't go anywhere. Try foot sweeps off the front foot just before they go into a stance. They will fall over if you are late you thump their leg and bruise it. Timing is everything.
Good info Bert - like the bit about getting your partner agressive!
Since i've started teaching I can see the down sides to training these, it mostly ends up with someone missing the mat or getting thrown/twisted wrong. Even with a small class it is very difficult to supervise, especially when there are kids involved or the partners are very different in size or weight. I can see how it is easier not to train with throws and take downs.
Having said that, I try to include it as much as possible.
I think it is a very ignored area of Karate and find it silly that it's excluded from most sport Karate (I think) I spar with a very good puncher so sometimes the only defence is to just step in and grab/throw.
I think before you teach any throws you need to spend a least a couple of sessions falling over. I was asked to show this in one class about an hour, so I was rushed, I showed them how to fall but they where not relaxed about going over and crumpled instead of rolling. Shoulder injury as a result. If they are frighten to fall over they try to stop themselves which increases the risk of injury.
Try to make these work in a karate class against the instructor is really hard, as they go in to a stance and stop destroying the momentum. Therefore most karate ka think throws do not work, because against them most of the time they don't.
Then you get somebody coming at you in a non dojo situation and it all makes sense, apart from the fear it is easy in comparision to karate class. The more they want to kill you the easier it is. For example using a practice knife they don't come up and stop they want to push it right through you.
Roll back from a low position slap both sides. Fall to one side slap one side. Roll backwards across shoulders. Roll forward across the shoulders like a circle starting on the little finger. If your uke is not frighten to fall over then it starts to be a better practice session.
It is important to teach ukemi before throws for safety sake but it should be taught, easy or not. Attention should be paid to setting-up an opponent to facilitate the throw and they should be drilled realistically. By this I mean training with a compliant partner until the throw is learned then non-compliant to test it. However , uke should be discouraged from adopting Zen kutsu-dachi as this is hardly a realistic scenario. A quick search on YouTube will bring up loads of examples but this should be backed up by someone with a solid grounding in judo or jujutsu. Far from being difficult to teach safely, our kids love doing randori and are less likely to hurt each other than during kumite I find. A great video is Mifune essence of Judo. Real mastery.
[b]The problem with these throws is that you block and destroy any momentum you have. You then have to get them moving again. This is made almost impossible by Karate ka's habit of punching then focusing and locking out stopping any movement in the direction of the strike.
There is an instant when these will work once they are in a stance it is too late. You need to get them just before they go in to a satnce and destroy it before it forms.[/b][/font]
I feel the problem is not with the throws but how they are applied. They were never meant to be applied against skilled fighters and it is unrealistic to apply or attempt to apply them against an oi-tsuki attack for instance. Closing down your opponent should have an element of "set-up" then once the distance is bridged you would go for the throw. The choice of throw depends on how your opponent is situated, It is putting the cart before the horse to choose the throw and then attempt to apply it against set attacks. The first thing to be taught should be "You pull, i push. You push I pull " Blocking should rarely be required as it is a different skill set entirely.
It is hard from a photograph to judge just how flowing a technique is and whether it is being used to jam or redirect. Whether Tai sabaki is being employed or whether it is the stop-action mode of blocking that many are taught as a block. Stopping dead someones momentum is definitely counter-productive to throwing someone but can be used to unbalance, redirect, enter etc.