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Post by th0mas on Apr 29, 2013 15:50:00 GMT
Hi Bob and Bert (it sounds like you're Bill and Ben's long forgotten cousins...expelled from the Flowerpot men under nefarious circumstances and now not mentioned in polite society)..
I would agree with your sentiment... an over focus on getting the form right, or defending yourself in the shotokan proper way to the detriment of effectiveness is something I have witnessed. The Human flinch reaction is there for a reason and our bodies have evolved the sympathetic nervous system (our flight, flinch and flight reactions) over millennia for very good survival reasons.
...rather than fight it, we should absolutely embrace it and adapt our fighting strategies to take advantage of this wonderful in-built defence mechanism.
It is much easier to add habitual actions to the flinch reaction, through drilling than it is to replace it with techniques that have to unlearn the flinch response. Especially if those techniques are based on bogus assumptions about real conflict situations (such as some of the kendo-inspired stuff in Shotokan)
I can also see that trying to unlearn the flinch response may cause decision-conflicts in high-pressure situations (rabbit in headlights etc) - which seems the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.
As an example the "primary block" in Age-uke is the arm that get's in the way, the remaining parts of the technique then build on that interception to put you in a position of control (hopefully with your opponent already reeling from receiving a fore-arm face smash)
Personally I try and flavour all my "reactive" training in this way.
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Post by dhodge on Apr 29, 2013 18:29:00 GMT
This is now evolving into an incident that happened to me last year at work. I was attacked by an inmate who was swinging punches at my head. Now we need to react in a controlled manner when attacked as the camera's are used to ensure we follow the rules. When he threw his first two punches I reacted in the manner I had done for years covered up the responded. I covered up tight and the perp hit me with a glancing blow to the side of my head and if I had used a more open Karate hand stance he wouldn't have got near me before I took him to the floor. My point being after training for 3 years I still didn't use my karate in a natural manner and this made resolve to train longer and harder to make my Karate reaction natural.
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Post by kensei on Apr 29, 2013 20:45:13 GMT
This is now evolving into an incident that happened to me last year at work. I was attacked by an inmate who was swinging punches at my head. Now we need to react in a controlled manner when attacked as the camera's are used to ensure we follow the rules. When he threw his first two punches I reacted in the manner I had done for years covered up the responded. I covered up tight and the perp hit me with a glancing blow to the side of my head and if I had used a more open Karate hand stance he wouldn't have got near me before I took him to the floor. My point being after training for 3 years I still didn't use my karate in a natural manner and this made resolve to train longer and harder to make my Karate reaction natural. Here is the set up for this event.....Situation one, inmate begins to swing and you use a longer reaching extended knife hand block to catch him on the arm just above the forearm and or biceps area, stop the swing of the fist, and smash him with an open hand or closed hand to the jaw, end of fight, you survive and the putz is on the floor picking up teeth or counting sheep......and you get fired but live! Set up two, same situation but this time you cover up tight like a boxer and end up eating several punches before you can "take the guy down" if you can "Take the guy down".....you get beat about a little or a lot and you end up off time from work becasue of trauma and or medical reasons and may lose your job. Set up number three, same situation, however as the punk is throwing you do the first block, tie up his hands with your arm and then trip him down and stay ontop of him smothering him...assuming he is not strong enough to throw you off or has a weapon and removes your guts with it....and you die. For me the logical thing...especially as a tax paying member of society that respects and appreciates the hard job that prison guards and cops do...is to say "blast him in the face and take him out! But I realize that society dictates strage and illogical rules on our police and correctional officers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:05:36 GMT
Agree with Kensei on that one. The police and prison service should not have to fight with one hand tied behind their backs. they do a job that I for one would not be able to do and deserve more support when they have to confront violent behaviour.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 30, 2013 18:14:13 GMT
Hi Derek
Am I reading this right that you took him to the floor on your own!!
Very fine line between permitted breakaway/control+restraint techniques being used and what could be construde as a physical assault!!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Apr 30, 2013 19:14:50 GMT
Hi Derek Am I reading this right that you took him to the floor on your own!! Very fine line between permitted breakaway/control+restraint techniques being used and what could be construde as a physical assault!! Best Regards Allan I know from students of mine that work in jails that they do approve this kind of defense...they call it "Blanketing" and it is the alternative to tear gassing the guy or tazing him...which are the next steps up the chain. As 99% of the altercations are on video they are fairly confident that it would never get to the courts as an assault charge seeing as the next few steps up are so drastic and the inmates are pretty much told that they are lucky they just did not get tazed or a rubber bullet!
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 30, 2013 20:40:08 GMT
Hi James
We are not talking about Canada, we are talking about England and Scotland!!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by dhodge on Apr 30, 2013 20:58:00 GMT
Allan we are allowed to strike a violent perp in a controlled manner and are trained to take violent attackers to the ground if needed. Breakaways are for when we can get away in this instance i couldnt and could have done more legally if i wasnt the person i am now
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Post by garage on May 1, 2013 10:19:52 GMT
For Debate purposes
You do a good block and counter and finish with one blow. There isn't a mark on you and the attacker is a heap on the witness say you attacked them and used excessive force. Now you have to prove they attacked you. (hope there is film in the camera)
Next a person posts on a web blog his employer reads it recognises the situation and there case are never closed in the UK and it is re investigated.
If you get Karate to be automatic it is going to get you in a lot of trouble. There is virtually no situation where you are not going to struggle to prove it is not an overreaction. I accept it is better than being injured or dead.
When someone offered to stab me in the neck I am supposed to know he didn't mean it etc etc..............
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Post by kensei on May 1, 2013 12:04:16 GMT
Oh, like I am supposed to not take that bait ;D You do a good block and counter and finish with one blow. There isn't a mark on you and the attacker is a heap on the witness say you attacked them and used excessive force. Now you have to prove they attacked you. (hope there is film in the camera) Here is were I have an issue, if I am on the streets, some guy comes up and says he is going to kill me...I am a little guy, 40+ years of age, said youngster is GOING to be eating his teeth! I dont mess around and I am not going to start now! In Canada we have two laws that protect me as a general rule, my self defense law and uttering threats law. If I feel my life or health is in immediate danger I have the right to defend myself, now their are limits but I am generalizing...also, if he says he is going to harm me and I think he is serious he is "uttering" and that is assault unto itself. That aside, If I really feel I am in danger I am NOT thinking about court or police, I am thinking about how fast I can stick my thumb in his eye socket and shake his skull till he passes out! Next a person posts on a web blog his employer reads it recognises the situation and there case are never closed in the UK and it is re investigated. Depending on what is bloged you have a great case in civil court, if I say I beat a kid for attacking me (as a guard or on the street) and defended myself in a bad situation then I am going to be rich if said employer fires me....if however I tweet, post, blog that I took a kid down "Cuz he looked at me funny" then my dumb arse gets what It gets and I probably am more the problem than a victim to start with! Not going into the whole privacy and veil of silence stuff that some jobs come with If you get Karate to be automatic it is going to get you in a lot of trouble. There is virtually no situation where you are not going to struggle to prove it is not an overreaction. I accept it is better than being injured or dead. your last bit their answers your first bit...would you rather be struggling to prove your reaction was correct....or struggling to explain to your family why you can not work because you were maimed or hoping your family can get past your murder? Like grandpa James used to say "Better judged by 12 than carried by 6"! I would rather be explaining to the attackers family why I had to "put him down" than have a cop knocking on my door to explain to my wife how I was killed. When someone offered to stab me in the neck I am supposed to know he didn't mean it etc etc.............. If someone says they are going to stab me in the neck...I take it at face value and I react. Be it a reaction of I dont believe you but you better run cuz I am going to kick your ass for assaulting me or just plain sticking my thumb in the dudes eye socket. The reason I bring up the eye socket is I actually did that once. I was walking down town and a group of kids (4) came up to me and wanted my jacket, as I was taking it off thinking it was not worth getting rolled for one of them said he was going to kill me...I then stopped taking my jacket off and reached out, sticking my thumb in his eye socket, and wrenching him back and forth while I yelled "thats not funny"...granted I could have come up with a more "chuck norris" or "Clint Eastwood" kind of thing to say but I was on auto pilot. The other three upstanding young gents ran like scared rabbits while their buddy soiled himself and passed out. I pulled out my phone and called the cops. After he was arrested for assault, uttering threats and a host of other charges and we went to court, the judge asked me what I did, I told him....he said I did nothing wrong and the kid got the book thrown at him....Jail time as he was 17 at the time. point being, if I had backed down and played coy....I may not be here to write this and my daughter and wife would not have me in their life to support and love them. NEVER think a job is more important than your life and if your bosses dont stick up for you.....get new bosses!
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Post by kensei on May 1, 2013 12:05:36 GMT
Oh, and before someone thinks "he thinks he is a bad ass" or something.....No, I just become a dumb ass when attacked and forget that often your actions have consiquences...but I always remember...the day that I spend above ground and not put in the ground...thats a good day!
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Post by dhodge on May 1, 2013 16:44:58 GMT
Guys this is not about some ones job but what we train for and what is effective self defence.
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Post by kensei on May 1, 2013 21:27:05 GMT
Guys this is not about some ones job but what we train for and what is effective self defence. So, job not the issue...then block and force the guy to eat his teeth........ nuff said!
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