|
Post by Rob S on Apr 22, 2013 7:10:53 GMT
I have just come back from almost three weeks travelling and visiting dojos in Japan. As a Shotokan stylist I almost came unstuck in one Shoto dojo. The reasons will become clear, but it has really started me thinking on whether or not Shotokan just wanted to be different, or whether they somehow got it wrong.
One dojo I visited is a huge force in the provinicial Zenkuren (Zen Nihon Karatedo Renmei - Japan Karate Federation) - producing many of their kumite champions. I was asked to teach, and was honoured to do so. I asked the students to do a combination of Soto Uke, Enpi Uchi, Uraken - standard Shotokan. I demonstrated it. Then I got stared at like I was from outer space!
What was wrong? Was my technique so bad?
I did it again, and the students followed on, doing what I asked.
A few more combinations and funny looks later,a few kata later, and my hour class was over.
When speaking to one of the students later, she informed me it was a great class, but I had confused the students. They call Soto Uke 'uchi uke' and Uchi Uke 'soto uke'. They are using JKF terminology!
The Shito, Wado, Goju groups are using the same terminology, but only the die hard old Shotokan people know that a Soto Uke is from the outside in, and a uchi uke is from the inside out! This was/is the issue. Actually a Soto uke should block to the 'outside' (so from inside to outside) - so it is our uchi uke; and a Uchi uke should block from the outside inwards, so it is our soto uke!
Only the oldest black belts knew what I was talking about, only they recognised 'old terminology'. The youngsters were typically Japanese polite and just adapted for 'my special class'. No qualms, they looked at me funnily yes, but not once was I challenged, and nor was the technique ever delivered other than how I had demonstrated it.
Terminology - Clear as mud?
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 22, 2013 11:33:37 GMT
Hi Rob
I had a similar experience last year whilst guest instructing for a club that knows me well. I tried to explain to new starters that whilst each block actually describes the place of origin ie outside/inside the actual blocks is effective by using the inside/outside of the arm when wrist twist is applied.
The combination you mention soto uke/enpi uchi/uraken (plus gyaku tsuki) is standard Shotokan but I confuse them even more by having them do uchi uke/enpi uchi/uraken (plus gyaku tsuki) also with both left and right defences with either soto uke or uchi uke. In effect the first block is applied to either the outside or inside of the opponents attack to expose their weak side.
Can be confusing for some students but you would think that by naming with Japanese terminology AND explaining the trajectory AND the wrist twist it would be self explanatory.
Best Regards Allan
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Apr 22, 2013 12:05:32 GMT
I ran into the same issue with a student of Kanazawa's who visited. The terminology apparently has ALWAYS been different depending on your dojo. but the students explained that the difference is just the instructors use of the terms.
When Nakayama was here he use the terms Uchi and Soto to describe inside (from in to out) and outside(from out to in) and so did Okizaki Sensei and Ueki Sensei's when I trained with them.
It used to be that the "old way" was the accepted way, but some groups changed the terms. A Goju friend of mine called the Soto (out to in) block Mawashi Uke and had a strange name for the Uchi Uke (in to out) like Shute uke or something.
The point being, good technique is good techniques.....a rose by any other name and all that.
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Apr 22, 2013 13:20:37 GMT
James, I agree with your sentiments, but we are talking of JKF which is the main force in Japan. The dojo I speak off is a dojo thathas purposely (10 years ago) changed its terminology to suit the JKF, so that the students are not confused!
JKF = WKF. WKF = possible Olympics. I can see the name change sticking, and the shift towards this modern 'standardised' approach.
We, in Shotokan, tend to follow the teachings of JKA (ala Nakayama and sons) hence the Ueki, Okazaki, Nishiyama, Yaguchi et al familiarity with the terms we use.
My association use the same terms 'we' normally efer to. But this one dojo is a serious JKF competitive dojo, and although part of my association, decided to go with the flow. Our syllabus is written using the terms similar to JKA Japanese. This dojo has then re-written the terms. When they finally go for the dan tests, and someone other than sensei asks for the techniques, they need to be prepared for the differences. Perhaps in the long run this may add confusion to their stress, or perhaps they are so well versed in the syllabus they know it inside out. I don't know.
I just found it very interesting that the lower grades were confused by my 'old fashioned' terminology, but the older high grades were instantly recognising them. They did not shout out, they did not give explanation to the low grades. They just let them follow and show their discipline.
It was a nice class for me, as it was simple kihon excercises, then similar techniques as kumite style kihon, then kata, and those techniques as kumite style (i.e. not as rigid in stance etc. but more tai sabaki and snap).
I was exhausted, but they were ready to keep going.
My question becomes, in the standard OSS world which terminology do you all follow?
And what logic do you use in following that way!
|
|
|
Post by elmar on Apr 22, 2013 18:57:41 GMT
My question becomes, in the standard OSS world which terminology do you all follow? The JKA standard - soto to me means the outside of the arm edge, and it's moving inwards. None - just habit, and the rationalization above (which edge of the arm does the impact).
|
|
|
Post by Allan Shepherd on Apr 22, 2013 19:19:16 GMT
Here lies the conundrum, in Gedan Barai we use the outside of the arm via the wrist twist.
In Soto Uke what was the "outside" of the arm in GB is now the "inside" of the arm in Soto Uke via the wrist twist.
In Uchi Uke what was the "outside" of the arm in GB and the "outside" of the arm in SU is now the "inside" of the arm in UU via the wrist twist.
Best Regards Allan
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Apr 23, 2013 6:43:41 GMT
This can even be confusing in English, as an "inside" and "inwards" block can mean the opposite things. FWIW, we use "soto" for the block which travels from outside to inside. FWIW part #2, this is how TSW describes them.
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Apr 23, 2013 17:43:30 GMT
The issue for Shotokan 'may' become whether or not there is a general shift towards this 'JKF' terminology on a large or global scale. I have used the standard terminology for 45 years or so, and the shift for me personally would be difficult.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 20:46:33 GMT
I'm with soto being from the outside to the inside. Rationale being my instructors told me so and I read it in a book or two!
|
|
|
Post by garage on Apr 24, 2013 8:39:40 GMT
Pulling faces class pretty insolent and disrespectful. If the wind blows your face will stay like that!!! ie childish.
Funakoshi Karate Kyoshan and Nakayama Best Karate name them like this, means nothing to me, I have noticed with my tourist Japanese they have called tthings what they like at classes I have been to, are they so ignorant that they do not bother to read anything and just do as they are told, obviously retorical question.
If somebody mixes up a few words I wouldn't dream of making faces at them, perhaps I should take a leaf out of that book change them and then make fun of people I haven't told.
My opinion but if you can't agree on anyhting the olympic dream is never going to happen.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Apr 24, 2013 11:39:49 GMT
Hey Burt, First and formost let me say that my post is with all due respect and in no way an attack on you personally, its a comment on ALL OF US who think "Well, Soto is Soto...who the heck are these students to disagree". Just a different spin, even on my own thinking. I went home and started reading again, I found a quote in one of my magazines about this very thing that kind of illustrated something to me. Basically the term Soto and Uchi are interchanged alot in Japan and in some JKA clubs they are "backwards" as well from what we are used to. So its not just JKF and other groups. Japanese is a twisted language of inlection and "you just have to know this stuff" kind of stuff. Its confusing and often words are used differently than we would expect. My suggestion...roll with it. Now...... Pulling faces class pretty insolent and disrespectful. If the wind blows your face will stay like that!!! ie childish. If Kagawa Sensei or someone else came to your club and started teaching Mae geri but it was CLEARLY Mawashi geri by your 30 something years or less of training....would you correct him? Or would you have a funny face as you try and figure out why he called it this? My thought is that these students were taught A and when he said it was B they were kind of taken aback. I would not read much into it as far as disrepsctful, more like confused and even upset that this dude was allowed to teach and even proffesses to know what he is talkinga bout but he gets the terminology all wrong! ;D Funakoshi Karate Kyoshan and Nakayama Best Karate name them like this, means nothing to me, I have noticed with my tourist Japanese they have called tthings what they like at classes I have been to, are they so ignorant that they do not bother to read anything and just do as they are told, obviously retorical question. We assume that alot of Japanese read about Karate! Thats not so much true. they are told to follow what the instructor does. In Japan I have been told that buying a book by Funakoshi or any other instructor is like buying a Fan book on fishing if you were a fisherman. Why buy the book when you need to train. Many of the students probably only know of the books but have not bought one before or even seen one. My opinion but if you can't agree on anyhting the olympic dream is never going to happen. Who's olympic dream? Personally I kind of hope it NEVER gets to that point! I think olympics like sport Karate ruin traditional Karate and end up with a bunch of ego driven athletes running the show and forgetting that this used to be a Budo art! As for terminology, well this is a hick up not the end of the world.
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Apr 24, 2013 15:40:38 GMT
Pulling faces class pretty insolent and disrespectful. If the wind blows your face will stay like that!!! ie childish. ... If somebody mixes up a few words I wouldn't dream of making faces at them, perhaps I should take a leaf out of that book change them and then make fun of people I haven't told. Bert: They did not make faces as in insolence, perhaps to be more specific the faces were 'blank looks' as opposed to any insolence/disrespect. They did not question, they did not look around at each other, they just did what they were 'shown' as opposed to 'asked' to do. Total respect at all times. The issue is that these were largely younger people, who have NEVER heard the terms most OSS refer to - but the opposite. Their experience is largely JKF - and these are those terms. They do not train in the JKA circle, they train in their dojo! They compete in JKF! I went home and started reading again, I found a quote in one of my magazines about this very thing that kind of illustrated something to me. Basically the term Soto and Uchi are interchanged alot in Japan and in some JKA clubs they are "backwards" as well from what we are used to. So its not just JKF and other groups. .... If Kagawa Sensei or someone else came to your club and started teaching Mae geri but it was CLEARLY Mawashi geri by your 30 something years or less of training....would you correct him? Or would you have a funny face as you try and figure out why he called it this? My thought is that these students were taught A and when he said it was B they were kind of taken aback. I would not read much into it as far as disrepsctful, more like confused and even upset that this dude was allowed to teach and even proffesses to know what he is talkinga bout but he gets the terminology all wrong! ;D ... As for terminology, well this is a hick up not the end of the world. Guys, this is not the end of the world. James is right it is a simple hiccup, but one I found interesting and amusing enough to ponder over and share. Please not assume there was any disrespect - in fact the opposite! Nothing but respect was offered ... contrary to what I would imagine most Western Dojos would do! I have been on many courses, as a student and an instructors where I have seen, Yahara, Kagawa, Abe and many other sensei pulled up by a western student with words to the effect of ... 'sensei you said Bassai Sho, but that is Bassai Dai' or 'sensei you said ... but are doing' or other such corrections. Worse when the instructor has a mind blank I have seen students physically show them the next move! To my mind that is disrespect, that is insolence ! That is almost trying to show the instructor you are .... This dojo were polite, quick to respond, just had quizzical or blank looks when they were 'shown' X and told 'Y'. As James said they were taken aback, perhaps confused by the sudden difference. But I must emphasis at no time did I feel anything but willingness to train. My initial reaction to their quizzical look was 'what am I doing wrong?' Not 'what is wrong with these guys'? We all just did what we should do, trained. Just sometimes they let me demonstrate, the technique after I had verbally given instructions. Then they knew what I wanted! For what it is worth my Japanese pronunciation is strong ... I have trained with Japanese sensei for 46 years, visited Japan many times, taught there many times, and am married to a Japanese woman! It was not my pronunciation, purely the terminology offered.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Apr 24, 2013 22:37:49 GMT
... am married to a Japanese woman! It was not my pronunciation Just wondering- is asking your wife if your pronunciation is correct kind of like a guy being asked by his wife if that dress makes her look fat?
|
|
|
Post by Rob S on Apr 25, 2013 10:31:36 GMT
She asked once and I truthfully answered. The dentist was very happy :-) My Bank manager wasn't!
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Apr 25, 2013 12:39:22 GMT
She asked once and I truthfully answered. The dentist was very happy :-) My Bank manager wasn't! LMAO.....Never answer when a wife says "do these jeans make my butt look big" the truth...No right answer...and for GODS sake dont say "No, your arse makes its self look big, the poor pants are just wrapped tight around it and trying to keep er in! the sofa is not so soft!
|
|