|
Post by kensei on Sept 19, 2013 18:52:08 GMT
So, I am watching a very well known instructor doing Kata on YouTube and notice that his Neiko Dachi and Kiba Dachi are very different heights. He tends to always be deeper in Kiba Dachi and Zenkutsu than in Kokutsu and Neiko Dachi.
Some may say "thats just because of Kata interpretation..." ext. but I noticed it in different clips as well.
Question. When you teach/train do you try and make the general height of your body the same in all the stances you do?
|
|
|
Post by malk103 on Sept 19, 2013 21:30:28 GMT
Deeper the better as the average student still won't get that low but your more keener students will do their best and be stronger for it.
|
|
|
Post by Dod Watt on Sept 19, 2013 23:13:29 GMT
because of the weight ratio and the body centre there is a difference in the distance of the stances, therefore the hight issue can be different to, just think the closer the feet is together, the higher the stance !!
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 20, 2013 12:50:49 GMT
I was watching really close and the instructor was almost standing up in Neiko dachi, but the Kiba dachi was very deep, his Zenkutsu was almost as deep, and his Kokutsu was not as high as Neiko...but close.
My thought is that they somehow have weaker legs. The back leg in Neiko and Kokutsu get a great work out as they have to hold more weight, if you have a lack of flexibility or weaker leg you have to straighten up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 18:41:00 GMT
If you look at the pictures of Funakoshi in the original karate do Kyohan you will see he has very high stances. It is only in later editions where the pictures where re shot with other people that you see the very low stances we associate with modern Shotokan, so it would appear these very low stances are new in relative terms.
|
|
|
Post by garage on Sept 22, 2013 2:46:56 GMT
To do all the stances at the same height is an arbetry rule that loses sight of what the purpose of karate is for.
Everyone is different with different flexibility, so to achieve this will have to stretch like hell to do it. Then low stances, when your body is not up to it, load joints and leads to the usual hip and knee replacements in later life.
Then you find that are in a low stance and then you are trying to get out of them before you get hit so what use are they anyway? I always enjoy front stance with my testicles dragging the floor, and the burning in the quads but after a while you can do it easily so the training effect goes.
As pointed out above Funakoshi didn't do it so it must be something developed as Karate when along more sporting lines.
Making them the same height is an abtract rule that can have an adverse effect on your body movement and lose sight of what you are doing, unless looking good is your sole aim.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Sept 23, 2013 14:15:54 GMT
The height of your stance is not the issue, the issue is whether you sit "in your stance" or "on your stance ". Sitting in your stance means that you are balanced and you legs act as suspension does in a car. Sitting on your stance will cause imbalance and an inability to absorb shock. Height is for appearance only.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 24, 2013 11:51:30 GMT
My point is that the uniformity of a stance may be arbitrary, but to have one Neiko dachi almost standing up, then the Kokutsu down low, a Kiba dachi that looks straight leg'ish and then a Zenkutsu that is deep like a Yoga pose is showing inconsistancies that are just mind boggling to me. I get that Funakoshi had high stances, but they were ALL high! I get that some people lack flexibility in specific muscles that cause them to be higher up or they have bad knees, or dont want bad knees or.....add reason here...but then shouldnt all stances still be reletivly the same height? Again, some free spirits feel that this is just uniformity gone wrong, but as a traditionalist and not a "free spirit" I kind of think that uniformity in an art like this is the right way to go. I mean making it easier so "anyone can do it" is not the point....its supposed to be hard! You want easy, strap on some gloves and go smack eachother around in a boxing ring, this is a martial ART!
other than getting side tracked and proving the cold medication is working, I basically think that a stance height should be reletivly close, but guys, the instructor in question ( a young western instructor) seems to be highly inconsistant and upon further investigation,.....his left Neiko dachi is the same level as his Kiba Dachi, but his right is so much higher...and no...he has no injury because two stances later his right is deep again. I would say his Godan...is at a Shodan level when it comes to stances.
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Sept 24, 2013 14:03:19 GMT
In which case I agree with you. There are good reasons to keep all stances the same height, hip alignment being just one of them. We constantly tell our students not to bob up and down. This seems like a fundamental flaw to me.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Sept 25, 2013 6:10:09 GMT
I was always taught that that the basic stances should be the same height. When teaching kihon or kata, I still emphasize that, assuming that there are no joint or flexibility issues which prevent it. However, that is karate as performance art. I see no need to worry about maintaining a specfic height when doing kumite, SD, applications, etc.
As for Gichin, his stances were indeed quite high. Maybe he was following his own precept that low stances were for beginners and higher/natural stances were for the experienced. Maybe it was because those pre-WWII photos were prior to the Gigo and then JKA obsession with low stances. Or maybe it was because he was so short, that if he was in a really low stance, he would only be able to reach his opponent's ankles.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 25, 2013 14:47:27 GMT
@ Nathan.
He was also very old in those pictures and from what I read he had hip issues since he was a young man. I am thinking that his stance was more a reflection of his age than his ability.
|
|
|
Post by nathanso on Sept 25, 2013 21:21:53 GMT
@ Nathan. He was also very old in those pictures and from what I read he had hip issues since he was a young man. I am thinking that his stance was more a reflection of his age than his ability. James- There was a time that I would have said that he was "very old" in those pictures- but not any more. He wrote To-Te Jitsu in 1922. He was ONLY 54- a full decade younger than me. He was practically a baby!
|
|
|
Post by garage on Sept 26, 2013 11:42:15 GMT
What ever funkoshi is doing it is not Shotokan. The grown ups that ran Shotokan boycotted his funeral at the time as he boycotted their classes before his death because he didn't approve of sparring. You can read plenty of accounts of this.
If wants to do stances at different heights and posts a video without embarassement, I can't say I am really bothered.
So when did this tradition start? Clearly since Funakoshi is doing something different it must be sometime after 1957 that shotokan started. So a tradition that is less than 70 years old.
So are we discussing stances or an individual who posts videos that are suspect. I think you should do stances to the best of your ability, therefore they are likely to be consistant each time.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 26, 2013 16:19:09 GMT
What ever funkoshi is doing it is not Shotokan. The grown ups that ran Shotokan boycotted his funeral at the time as he boycotted their classes before his death because he didn't approve of sparring. You can read plenty of accounts of this. hey Bert, I have posted about this before, the Legend of the fight between the Shotokai and JKA is MYTH! I know a handfull of senior instructors that not only attended his funeral but also acted as palbearers. Yaguchi Sensei sat down with us once over a nice lunch and said it was BS and he had no idea what started that rumor. He was at the funeral and NO ONE Had "FLAGS" or such that were their. His family set up the funeral and everyone attended, but the JKA also had a memorial service separate from the other groups service and the funeral. Not only was the JKA and the Shotokai at the Funeral but both sides participated. If wants to do stances at different heights and posts a video without embarassement, I can't say I am really bothered. So when did this tradition start? Clearly since Funakoshi is doing something different it must be sometime after 1957 that shotokan started. So a tradition that is less than 70 years old. The "tradition" is more a case of "if you cant do two Zenkutsu the same height and such it comes across as sloppy. Thats pretty much all I am pointing out. If you were a "TAD" off thats one thing but the stance height (judged by the height of the persons head when moving) was off by like 1/2 foot at times. Bascially I am asking about sloppy stances and if others agree or not. So are we discussing stances or an individual who posts videos that are suspect. I think you should do stances to the best of your ability, therefore they are likely to be consistant each time. Stances and technical ability, I could care less if I saw him on line or through a window...although online seems so much less creapy! The point is that if you are technically proficient then you should be able to have two stances (both zenkutsu or at the least Kiba Dachi and Zenkutsu) the same height. Keep in mind he was not going fast...just a medium pace and as an ARTIST not a fighter I find it sad that someone that proffesses to be an expert can not manage to at the least do two stances that look the same!
|
|
|
Post by jimlukelkc on Sept 27, 2013 9:48:20 GMT
Leaving aside stylistic differences, artistic endeavour or aesthetic traditions ; the point is that stances are transitory , not held for long periods ( apart from for stance training purposes ). So if this is the case then the most efficient way of moving from one stance to another is to keep at the same height, hip alignment etc. Due to contemporary kata performances,for instance, emphasising pregnant pauses and elongated kime and tension, I feel we lose sight of the fact that stances are, primarily, a delivery system for your technique and as such should be viewed as a whole, not as separate to whichever technique it accompanies.
|
|
|
Post by garage on Sept 27, 2013 12:48:37 GMT
www.shotokai.com/ingles/history/darkest.htmlThis is the source of the rumour, someone is lying, I do not really care who, as it isn't going to change my life. As for the height thing I looked in the mirror they are probably about the same height 3 stances probably in case I am fighting rabbits and if I get higher went I move they can tell I am moving towards them when they are looking through one eye. Yes I think we spend to much time in stances with too much tension. In sparring/brawling I am in no stance and only pass through the stance as I delivering something. My pansy mates at the boxing club like to deliver from a firm stance but are only in it briefly before moving on.
|
|
|
Post by kensei on Sept 27, 2013 17:52:07 GMT
Yah, they tend to want to make others think they were the only ones that did anything for Funakoshi and his family. I did ask about this to Yaguchi sensei YEARS ago and he just laughed and said "they can say what they want, they were not at the funeral (those that are telling the story) to see us. Those that were their know, the family knows and we did our part so we know". He mentioned that Nakayama and Asai Sensei were their as well as others. I find it interesting that the Shotokai guys that built the site put that up and perpetuated the story, but were not present at the funeral to confirm. I have NO idea who the source of this false tale are, but like you...its not going to change my life.
|
|
|
Post by makoto on Sept 27, 2013 23:50:28 GMT
From my experience here in Japan, people tend to be too long in their stances. When I say too long, I mean that their stances are so long that they can not use their core or stance to generate power for the technique. When they move, the body does not as a unit, it is segmented usually with the upper body moving first going forward, and the arse moving first when moving backward. When kicking, if the stance is too long there is a tendency to again use too much upper body and less use of the core.
If people had slightly shorter stances and a neutral spine, then their body would be able to work as a unit, all parts aiding in the creation of the technique. Just watch a Steve Ubl video to understand what I am talking about, or you could watch Nishiyama on youtube as well. I am sure there are others who have the same concept. But these are the two names that come to mind right now.
PS. If your front stance is too long, and the back leg is perfectly straight your tailbone will not be in a neutral spine position.
|
|
|
Post by th0mas on Sept 28, 2013 8:49:01 GMT
Leaving aside stylistic differences, artistic endeavour or aesthetic traditions ; the point is that stances are transitory , not held for long periods ( apart from for stance training purposes ). So if this is the case then the most efficient way of moving from one stance to another is to keep at the same height, hip alignment etc. Due to contemporary kata performances,for instance, emphasising pregnant pauses and elongated kime and tension, I feel we lose sight of the fact that stances are, primarily, a delivery system for your technique and as such should be viewed as a whole, not as separate to whichever technique it accompanies. Here here! Jim Here here! Was going to say something similar, then I lost the will to live...
|
|