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Post by Allan Shepherd on Oct 27, 2013 8:57:28 GMT
Congratulations to Andre Bertel announcing on his website that he has joined the JKA Japan.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Oct 28, 2013 17:10:30 GMT
Interesting!
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Post by nathanso on Oct 28, 2013 18:50:50 GMT
I notice that he removed from the header the paragraph about how the site was dedicated to the memory of Asai and his innovations.
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Post by kensei on Oct 28, 2013 21:09:14 GMT
I find it interesting for the same reason. The guy was all "Im an Asai student for life" and he was very angry about the whole "split" that happened I believe before he was even part of the picture. Then to dump his Asai student title and now he is JKA...very interesting. Hey, what do I actually care. I am glad he is training, glad he is enjoying life and glad he found a home. I fear its going to be very temperary however and maybe a big mistake for both sides!
But agian, what does a midlander like me care!
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Post by garage on Oct 29, 2013 12:10:26 GMT
For a moment I thought everyone was going to be best friends forever (BFF) and go off training into the sunset. (tits)
They know the price of everything and the value of absolutely nothing.
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Post by kensei on Oct 29, 2013 12:34:38 GMT
Bert,
I am actually glad that such a brilliant dude has jumped to the JKA and is enjoying himself, just scepticle as to how long it will last and the wake he will leave..when he leaves!
This forum is made up of JKA students, Asai section students, Kanazawa sensei students and just about every other faction that I can think of...hell we have some none Shotokan guys floating around. And we all seem to get along very well, infact better than some sites that say no debate...we debate and we get along fairly well here. So, I am not going to Bash Andre, I actually really respect him as a practitioner and a person from the little I have had contact with him...but I just question his move. NOT his motives, just the fit! I hope I am wrong and the guy fits in like a ball to a glove, but I will reserve my "happy dance" for say six years from now if he is still part of the group or not.
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Post by garage on Oct 29, 2013 13:21:15 GMT
I am coming at it from the angle I used to run quite large clubs and hands over large sums of money.
I never remember there being any instructor classes or any thanks and this a tradition that seems to have been preserved. I like spending the little money I have on my children not on going to some bloody awful training session where you are lucky to see what is going on etc etc
So there toing and froing makes no different to my training in my garage, I am not sure I would spent my money on joining such and such because, I think I might wake one day and wonder what I am doing.
The trouble with training on your own your comumication skills get worse!
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Post by nathanso on Oct 29, 2013 20:39:46 GMT
The trouble with training on your own your comumication skills get worse! You need to have longer and more frequent conversations with yourself!
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Post by kensei on Oct 30, 2013 12:59:58 GMT
I am coming at it from the angle I used to run quite large clubs and hands over large sums of money. I never remember there being any instructor classes or any thanks and this a tradition that seems to have been preserved. I like spending the little money I have on my children not on going to some bloody awful training session where you are lucky to see what is going on etc etc So there toing and froing makes no different to my training in my garage, I am not sure I would spent my money on joining such and such because, I think I might wake one day and wonder what I am doing. The trouble with training on your own your comumication skills get worse! I respect that perspective, I would however state that it is simply one perspective. I like the fact that their are multiple instructors that are sent out and give you ideas to train with, I like the idea that I can travel to any area and know with out a doubt that I can drop in and train and find pretty much the same thing I am doing now..in that dojo with a few interesting twists. Also, I find that when I used to goto non_JKA groups (meaning free thinking karate people that dont need a organization), when I was not JKA, that I found each class a pissing contest of "this is the way it is not that way" or "what was that, oh that must be the old way or a wrong way you picked up" and it was simply more exhausting to converse about a simple Kata "twist" that they had made over just getting a work out in! I go to JKA clubs and even if we do things a tad different we tend not to beat the darn thing to death and cool down, its "oh, thats interesting we do it a tad different....Next". Their are two sides to every story here. I am a staunch supporter of organizations in general as they tend to keep the Yahoo factor down, individual clubs and even some splinter groups, give out ranks like chicklets to anyone and sudden 2-4 dan rank hops with no testing. Its stupid already and I stopped supporting these types years ago! Andre is an interesting addition simply because his stances and his previous training was So "ASAI-centric" that I simply can not see an outcome wereby he does not have issues with the staunch differences in style. More power to him and from what I gather this is a move for legitamacy in the face of the many Asai factions that are popping up that he does not agree with.
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Post by garage on Oct 31, 2013 14:37:55 GMT
Hi Kensi
I also respect your view point. I would like to make the following observations. JKA instuctor says taught by Nakayama Funkoshi etc. In the UK every one is grunting like pigs with low stances, same instructor in Europe no grunting and the stances are higher they didn't seem bothered, I guess as long as they are paid.
It took me many years to realise (no internet) that 2 instuctors actually came from the same JKA class used to train together, I thought they where two different styles.
As I find most senior JKA instructors "do it there way like " like burger king, I can't see there being much problem with people rejoining the herd.
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Post by kensei on Oct 31, 2013 17:39:59 GMT
As I find most senior JKA instructors "do it there way like " like burger king, I can't see there being much problem with people rejoining the herd. Ah, but as far as I know he is not "rejoining" he is Joining. He was Asai Karate only, then he moved to JKA. I know that the differences are minor techncially, but my experience is that those that are with one side are normally much more emotional than I woudl be about affiliation. Its interesting is all.
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Post by stevenm on Nov 3, 2013 19:06:20 GMT
I'm actually a bit disappointed to hear this. Of all the people purportedly doing 'Asai' karate around the world, Andre is the one whose karate most resembles that of Asai. All the others just seem to be doing JKA karate, but with different kata. Does anyone else feel the same? Like something is being lost? I know that technically, Asai was JKA, but lets face it, he stuck out like a sore thumb.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 3, 2013 19:46:01 GMT
Hi Steven
I am a great believer in things happen for a specific reason, they do not happen by chance.
I will play devil's advocate here (god help me after what happened last time!!) but just maybe Andre is bringing "Asai Karate" with him to the JKA?
My personal opinion (for what it is worth) might be a case of him not having the opportunity to integrate with other Asai style groups/karateka so he has done the next best thing for his own personal development etc and gone or been invited to the JKA.
Personally I give him 10 out of 10.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by stevenm on Nov 3, 2013 20:30:23 GMT
Interesting thoughts Allan. I never thought of it that way. This is Asai re-joining the JKA!
I really hope that Andre will continue to do what he does at the moment, and not just become another JKA instructor, (Technically brilliant though they are, but I hope you know what I mean.) He offers something different. The cynic in me thinks that perhaps this is the JKA reclaiming 'Asai karate' from the JKS, in an attempt to clip the wings of the latter.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 3, 2013 21:36:00 GMT
Hi Steven
I think that Andre will continue to do what he does even though he is now JKA, it is so ingrained in him. If you visit his excellent website you can follow his training regime, some fine training tips.
What we have to remember is Asai headed two organisations, JKS and IJKA. From what I can remember the two organisations never seen eye to eye. I remember being a member of JKS when it was Japan Karate Shotokai (still have the over gi jacket) and then changing to Japan Karate Shotorenmei.
I have noticed that the Crewe dojo practice the 5 Junro kata, have they/are they affiliated to either JKS or IJKA?
Best Regards Allan
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Post by stevenm on Nov 4, 2013 18:08:33 GMT
We are not affiliated to any group in particular Allan. We practice the 5 Junro Kata, but they are not on our grading syllabus. Being independent, we have freedom to train in whatever we regard to be good, sound, Shotokan karate. We look to the JKA Instructors as a standard for our Kihon and Kata. We also have (very)occasional visits from friends at the local IJKA Dojo, which is a good way of knowing what's happening elsewhere in the Shotokan world.
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Post by kensei on Nov 5, 2013 14:04:16 GMT
I think that its good as long as both parties are happy. I dont see it working out long term and would LOVE to know what brought them together and IF Andre will be able to maintain his "Asai-isms" with out any flack. I dont see the JKA embracing the things that Asai brought to the table after he left and they dont tend to be extreamly flexible on things like people calling themselves JKA and doing other arts or other twists on Shotokan (See Kanazawa, Asai, Yahara ext).
but the truth is that a very gifted person has joined the JKA and I for one would welcome him to the fold. Wonder what they are doing for rank ext? Thats just the fluff stuff however, I am sure that Andre knows not to go doing one of Asai Sensei's Kata at a JKA function or teaching things that are not in the JKA curriculum while wearing the JKA logo.
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Post by garage on Nov 5, 2013 14:32:21 GMT
It is really rare for anyone to actually graduate from a Japanese Karate school, even if it doesn't last long before they get scared and stop thinking for themselves.
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 6, 2013 11:52:42 GMT
Hi James
No mystery...just visit andrebertel.blogspot.co.uk and all is explained under the heading JKA. Contribute to the already 1.2 million visits.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Nov 28, 2013 19:53:08 GMT
Great report by Andre on his webpage covering his training and grading with JKA Chief Instructor Shihan Ueki.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by kensei on Dec 27, 2013 12:47:37 GMT
I am glad that he found a home, I am curious as to how it will turn out, but more power to him and the interest of training with him has grown a tad. I think he is an amazing athlete!
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Post by mifune on Dec 28, 2013 20:19:53 GMT
I have heard that Bertel literally cleaned the floor witj others JKA Instructors on his Godan JKA Gradings. Just a question....What about your next Seminars? Will it be Asai's Karate or not???
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Post by Bob Davis on Dec 28, 2013 21:45:31 GMT
Mifune, as a new member can you update your profile to include your full and real name in your signature please.
Many thanks
Bob D.
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jeffcapstick
Member
When your temper rises, lower your fists. When your fists rise, lower your temper.
Posts: 10
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Post by jeffcapstick on Jan 7, 2014 13:37:31 GMT
This thread seems to be full of statements such as "doing Asai karate" or "doing JKA karate". Why doesn't he do his own karate? Maybe he does, I don't know and I have never met him, but everyone is very keen to put the man into a classification!
Karate evolves and we should look for the courage to stand on the shoulders of the giants who have gone before, not stand at their feet and stare upwards in amazement. ;-)
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Post by stevenm on Jan 7, 2014 22:57:04 GMT
Hi Jeff To be honest, it was probably Andre himself who did more than any of us, or anyone else, for that matter, to put himself firmly in the 'Asai Karate' Pigeon hole. He made it his mission for many years. I think he'll always be associated with Asai, and his type of Karate.
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Post by kensei on Jan 8, 2014 16:56:14 GMT
I think that my "asai Karate" Comment came from him promoting the Katas that Asai created and using terminology and training that Asai created. Yes Karate is Karate, but JKA Shotokan has a specific feel and Kata list that they use, infact they try and drop two of them over and over again.
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