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Post by garage on Dec 25, 2013 15:11:51 GMT
I wondered in a non dojo situation if anyone would share things that didn't go right.
Examples.
In the dojo you put on a shoulder or wrist lock in the dojo they tap to be released. Outside they have been partying and have taken substances that mean they do not tap out. You put the lock on and they do not notice.
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Post by garage on Dec 25, 2013 18:55:15 GMT
Mawashi Geri round kick, I love this kick, I also hate it because it is dangerous.
It the Dojo you can tag anything, ball of the foot in the temple no problem. One night there was a keep out sign on a building, somebody said can you hit that? It was about head height, I tagged it no problem. I remember the look of disappointment as I had not smashed it. It was the sign of things to come. In the Dojo as they stand on one leg presenting their nuts to you, it is bad manners to smash them in the groin.
I was lucky the shock of tapping them in the temple made them stop, I now remember to go through the target and not use high, high risk kicks but still, the habit of doing this kick in training is difficult to break, in the heat of the moment you use what you have practiced and committed to muscle memory. Risky.
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Post by D.Ram on Dec 26, 2013 3:10:44 GMT
Same issue with ushiro geri - unless you are lightening-quick with the kick, the fact remains that you present your back to your opponent for a non-negligible period of time - during which, the opponent has the option of a simple oi-zuki with a wide target - even in dojo practice, a good oi zuki in the back can give you aches for weeks afterwards.
~~~~ The more your sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Dec 27, 2013 12:45:39 GMT
There is pressure testing, which we all should do more of and there is the matter of context. A duel ( kumite, boxing match, mma fight etc.) with its rules, restricted targets and unrealistic distance, has techniques developed purely for that. To try to use those techniques against an assailant is plain silly. Arm locks can be applied and work if you have already disadvantaged your opponent but you may have to be willing to break the limb. High kicks for most of us are a really bad idea, leaving you vulnerable and unbalanced. Try not to allow your attacker the chance to grapple or grab and if you go down get up quickly! Try knee strikes to his legs, elbow strikes, slaps, pinches. Keep both hands busy and don't worry about " blocking ". Look to kata, no high roundhouse there ( although Kanazawa did try to introduce them to enpi once over.) Any oft-repeated technique in kata is guaranteed to have some worth as it has already been pressure-tested.
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Post by kensei on Dec 27, 2013 12:46:32 GMT
I think a lot of young martial arts enthusiasts tend to throw the baby out with the bath water as it were.
When I was young I felt that the Mawashi Geri Jodan was one of the most powerful strikes we had in Karate, it could end any fight right! I mean right?
Problem was the first real fight I got into as a bouncer I realized that not only did I not have a chance to throw that kick…but if I had I would have been turfed by the guy I was tossing. I was 19 and a young buck…that’s more than 2 decades ago and I had to throw a guy out that was 40-50 pounds heavier than me and knew how to wrestle. I found out that night that being drunk and stupid is not a way to get into a fight…I won that situation because of the pressure that Karate classes with Dingman Sensei put us under.
I also learned later that the Mawashi geri Jodan training set my body up to give really good Mawashi Geri Gedan to the thigh area/knee area. I used that one time against a boxer in the bar and that was the end of the fight…drunk boxer went down and did not get back up!
Modified versions of kicking may be needed as your body gets older, your situations change and in the Dojo we have lots of “protected” situations as have been pointed out. But as with the modification of targets for the Mawashi Geri the Ushiro is an important kick to train, but not for spinning and Kumite style kicks but as a surprise kick to the shin or groin. Or even to push kick the guy away from you.
Now a days to many people think that Jiu Jitsu is cool and they want to choke people out in fights, the thing is if you ever get one of those guys behind you and your distance training is good, before he gets his hands on you use the Ushiro to push him off and spin to face him, or kick him hard in the “junk” and spin to face him. They often don’t think of punching you in the spine if their main focus is on choking you.
I have had to modify my self defense course to include counter grappling and dirty fighting to counter the Jitsu trained attackers. I have had to leave in specific “sloppy street fighters” but more and more thugs are taking up MMA style training (the non-disciplined brother of true martial arts) and with that comes counter grappling. I don’t teach pure counters like a jiu Jitsu club, but modified Karate with some smart how to get out of “this” hold stuff.
Remember that what we do in the Dojo often is to condition the body to do something different on the streets. And after years of training and trying to get fancy, I have figured out that my most effective strikes are the Mae Geri and regular straight punches….go figure!
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Post by D.Ram on Dec 30, 2013 6:54:59 GMT
Very well written, Kensei...Oss! About BJJ - you talk about how to prevent the guy from getting close to you...but what if he somehow does? In some amateur videos on Youtube, I see the BJJ guys generally ignoring attacks (I mean, instead of blocking, they simply "absorb" the attack) and move forward to get to your neck - if they succeed, what next? I can think of lifting the guy up by bending down, or jumping backward to land on him, etc. - some way to get him off my neck - any other thoughts? ______________ The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
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Post by garage on Dec 30, 2013 9:59:30 GMT
If you are doing doing a striking, why would you stand still and allow a wrestler to close the distance? This is what they are good at and you are allowing to by pass what you are good at, which this is what happens in most of these videos.
Do they think it is a good tactic to ignore a knife or a knuckle duster? So the thought that you are going to ignore the first attack is one hell of a risk.
Then of course you go and train with them. I find that they tend to be a lot larger than me and there skill set is better means I have a problem. There is the wrestler's bridge, various rolls, going floppy trying to hold up a floppy person is very different to one who is resisting, the strangle goes off, the choke doesn't quick enough.
Who ever you are practiceing with make sure you trust them and they know what tap out means...
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Post by kensei on Dec 30, 2013 19:46:12 GMT
Very well written, Kensei...Oss! About BJJ - you talk about how to prevent the guy from getting close to you...but what if he somehow does? In some amateur videos on Youtube, I see the BJJ guys generally ignoring attacks (I mean, instead of blocking, they simply "absorb" the attack) and move forward to get to your neck - if they succeed, what next? I can think of lifting the guy up by bending down, or jumping backward to land on him, etc. - some way to get him off my neck - any other thoughts? ______________ The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle. In the club, you tap. its not a real fight...on a street fight however, poke them in the eye as hard as you can, strike the groin and repeat both till they let go!!! Their are other ways to break a rear naked choke but unless you do BJJ you are best to poke both his eyes OUT and smash him in the yam sack!
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Post by th0mas on Jan 3, 2014 9:12:51 GMT
Very well written, Kensei...Oss! About BJJ - you talk about how to prevent the guy from getting close to you...but what if he somehow does? In some amateur videos on Youtube, I see the BJJ guys generally ignoring attacks (I mean, instead of blocking, they simply "absorb" the attack) and move forward to get to your neck - if they succeed, what next? I can think of lifting the guy up by bending down, or jumping backward to land on him, etc. - some way to get him off my neck - any other thoughts? ______________ The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle. Hi Ram You have to be a bit careful when watching Martial Art vs Martial Art youtube videos. They are often posted by the "winning" side and give a rather one-sided impression (Gracie BJJ did a lot of this as part of their self-promotion in the 90's). In the grappler vs striker scenario it is invariably a 1-on-1 Vale tudo style duel. The "Striker" martial artist has a number of massive disadvantages - the main one, especially in the older videos, is that the Strikers invariably had no grappling experience (I suspect that the fights were a lot less one sided when that was not the case and maybe not made public as a consequence ). There is also the psychological issue that getting a submission with an arm bar or a choke is lot less shocking than bludgeoning someone unconscious... Martial arts back in the day were very pigeon holed with traditional striking and grappling styles generally not competing against each other. The competition arena for strikers explicitly excluded grappling - which meant that fighters did not develop strategies to counter it. That all changed when UFC came along - and that became a massive wake up call for all those who had no answer to a determined grappler. For a period BJJ was touted as this miracle martial art that was superior to everything that went before.. ...Basically the issue is about context (as always). If you are competing where the rules allow the full spectrum of striking and grappling then as a competitor you need to train for both... Any MMA fighter who ignores either side will not go very far.. Up to this point I have only been talking about Competition (included duels etc). Clearly in a real fight all bets are off and everything goes, including getting your mates to help, being very preemptive, and using the environment in a very unsporting way. Just as in the competition arena, for self-protection you need to train accordingly covering all the usual stuff we talk about; the prefight game, multiple opponents, and HAPV etc - Clearly If you are training for self-protection you should certainly include some level of familiarity with the most common grappling scenarios from the street...
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 3, 2014 11:00:19 GMT
I am actually starting a "Gracie Combatives" class next week to work on my ability to a) grapple and b) to better understand how to counter it. Although aparently I can forget my karate training as "it's the only self defence course I'll ever need" Judging from the clip below I suspect that this may not be the case as assuming this won't happen while you are grappling on the street would be foolish in the extreme! (We must get away from the notion that the term "street" when applied to 99% of M.A. classes is anything other than marketing rather than reality) What happens if you grapple on the (real) street
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 3, 2014 11:52:46 GMT
this may not be a popular view point but unless you have been involved in real violent confrontation you are not qualified to teach "street protection/self-defence" you cannot have a full understanding of the effects on you physically and mentally. You will have a false impression of reality based on cultural experience, ( movies ,TV etc) and no true experience of how it feels to hit or be hit . To make claims of a systems superiority based on its techniques alone is ridiculous! Any martial art whose bias and emphasis is competition is flawed from the start as any conflict is consensual by definition. MMA often makes these spurious claims as a way of self-promotion and is a prime example of a flawed system. I enjoy MMA as a sport immensely but it lacks the attention to detail of boxing and has little emphasis on basics. As for its claims as a self-defence system, casual analysis gives the lie to that. Karate is equally flawed if not applied correctly but taught and trained pragmatically, it is as effective as any other ma. I am a little bewildered by a previous post however. Your opponent will get close and that is the distance at which we should be training and able to deal with. kata teaches that. if your assailant is not close you should be making every effort to avoid or diffuse the situation surely?
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Post by kensei on Jan 3, 2014 13:12:32 GMT
I am actually starting a "Gracie Combatives" class next week to work on my ability to a) grapple and b) to better understand how to counter it. Although aparently I can forget my karate training as "it's the only self defence course I'll ever need" Judging from the clip below I suspect that this may not be the case as assuming this won't happen while you are grappling on the street would be foolish in the extreme! (We must get away from the notion that the term "street" when applied to 99% of M.A. classes is anything other than marketing rather than reality) What happens if you grapple on the (real) streetSkip the combatives, I downloaded it and watched it. the thing is that wing of the gracie family has mediocre grappling. Try the Gracie Barra fundamentals. The program features Mario Faitosa (sp) and I found it far more about getting you good and less "overly technical" and wordy.
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Post by kensei on Jan 3, 2014 13:24:11 GMT
They are often posted by the "winning" side and give a rather one-sided impression (Gracie BJJ did a lot of this as part of their self-promotion in the 90's). I remember watching these "Gracie Challenge" fights and actually bought into them. I purchased the original Gracie tapes to figure out how to use Gracie BJJ and how to counter it. I found that they really were a different world than my Judo and Karate...planet full of it! the thing is that some of the Gracie Family members are great sales people, I dont question their skills too, but they may be able to sell better. The marketing engine that they created was fantastic and we can all learn a thing or two about marketing from them. (I suspect that the fights were a lot less one sided when that was not the case and maybe not made public as a consequence ). I watched a few "challenges" that did not go their way. First off some of the grappling challenges they held were set ups. They had rules like no striking the groin, no fish hooking or attacking the eyes. Taking away strikers weapons like no kicking to the groin or legs. It was all to help them. Never once did they have rules like No Gi chokes...we dont wear gis on the street. Having said that I saw a few Vale Tudo fights with Gracie family members that went wrong for them. One was a "roll" in which the bigger guy started striking on the ground, the guy was obviously a great wrestler and he took the "bit" smaller Gracie down and began dropping elbows and punching. The Gracie guy tapped due to strikes. That one did nto make any highlight reel for marketing! ...Basically the issue is about context (as always). If you are competing where the rules allow the full spectrum of striking and grappling then as a competitor you need to train for both... Any MMA fighter who ignores either side will not go very far.. This is the issue I have with just doing one version of fighting. I dont compete, hell I am so far past that at this point that I cant remember competition from a non-judge point of view...well I can but in my memories I was World champion! The point being that if you can not use the skills you are learning in a real situation then why bother. I recall working the bars and any moron that would "pull guard" would get curb stomped in a heart beat! The point being, learn how to reverse someone on top of you, get the heck up and blast them or if you get knocked down, learn how to latch on and possibly choke them out. Oh, and news flash...the rear naked choke was not created by the Gracies, we had it in the 80's when I bounced...we called it "The cop choke" or just "choking the guy". Up to this point I have only been talking about Competition (included duels etc). Clearly in a real fight all bets are off and everything goes, including getting your mates to help, being very preemptive, and using the environment in a very unsporting way. when training dont limit your training, hell pick up the combatives course, or the Fundamentals by Gracie Barra or any training video and work the ground skills. I think it could not hurt, but dont buy the hype and think that the end all is the gracie bjj system in general. Thier is a reason that MMA fighters dont just do Gracie BJJ. They have boxing coaches, kick boxing coaches/Karate in some cases, wrestling and conditioning coaches, nutritionists, therapists and a vast group of people getting them ready and skilled.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 3, 2014 15:00:01 GMT
To be honest the Combatives thing is just that they are local and convenient. I'll get a bit of groundwork practice, some new people to play with and have a bit of fun (but still be looking at it with my usual cynical eye).
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Post by th0mas on Jan 3, 2014 15:43:05 GMT
Here here to Jim and James.
Oh and the idea of "rolling" with Bob on the mat is profoundly disturbing on many levels.
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Post by th0mas on Jan 3, 2014 15:45:13 GMT
Oh, and news flash...the rear naked choke was not created by the Gracies, we had it in the 80's when I bounced...we called it "The cop choke" or just "choking the guy". yep..I also believe the rear naked choke appears in Bassai-dai and I suspect in Roman-Greco wrestling, catch-as-catch-can and the majority of grappling styles.
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Post by dhodge on Jan 3, 2014 16:16:41 GMT
this may not be a popular view point but unless you have been involved in real violent confrontation you are not qualified to teach "street protection/self-defence" you cannot have a full understanding of the effects on you physically and mentally. You will have a false impression of reality based on cultural experience, ( movies ,TV etc) and no true experience of how it feels to hit or be hit . To make claims of a systems superiority based on its techniques alone is ridiculous! Any martial art whose bias and emphasis is competition is flawed from the start as any conflict is consensual by definition. MMA often makes these spurious claims as a way of self-promotion and is a prime example of a flawed system. I enjoy MMA as a sport immensely but it lacks the attention to detail of boxing and has little emphasis on basics. As for its claims as a self-defence system, casual analysis gives the lie to that. Karate is equally flawed if not applied correctly but taught and trained pragmatically, it is as effective as any other ma. I am a little bewildered by a previous post however. Your opponent will get close and that is the distance at which we should be training and able to deal with. kata teaches that. if your assailant is not close you should be making every effort to avoid or diffuse the situation surely? I may not be a martial arts expert but after years of working in violent situations I must agree with Jim and to be honest 90% of karate students are not prepared for full on violent confrontations. My old club was a mixture of martial art karate, street karate and sport karate then it became sport focused and this diluted the reality of our training. A game of tig is not a fight and sadly for me the sports side lessened my zest for training. Of all of the fights I have been in they have lasted less than three minutes and have been up close and dirty. Karate if taught correctly is great for this the basics are prime strike areas but if we only do it at 20% of power and in most cases to thin air with no aggressive attacker students are being sold a dud.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jan 3, 2014 16:24:19 GMT
Oh go on, you know you want to "Rear naked choke" looks like one of the first things I learned from the "Teach yourself Judo" book I got from the school library at age 12, which was a (very) long time ago, (yes Tom, they did have printed books, even in those days
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Post by tomobrien1 on Jan 6, 2014 2:25:58 GMT
I once had a fight with a big guy who was picking on one of my smaller, yellow belts. I hit him 2X in the face with good reverse punches. He just grabbed me. I kicked him 2X square in the family jewels & he just picked me up & tried to body slam me. I wrapped myself around his head, both of us went down but I was on top (just plain lucky). I finished him with some good ground & pound with plenty of elbows & forearms. Whew! I saw the guy, several weeks later, in a grocery store isle. He was walking towards me. Nowhere to go in an isle. He walked past me like he didn't recognize me. He musta been drunk that night for sure. Anyway, he just walked by. Double whew!
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Post by kensei on Jan 6, 2014 13:06:47 GMT
speaking of drunks, pressure testing ext. One of the students in our organization, a black belt, posted a situation on his face book that made me cringe to the bone!
He had been in line waiting to purchase coffee and a drunk behind him poked him in the ribs, I would assume he means he got a "shot" to the ribs. when he turned to look the guy was drunk and acting the jerk. the student kind of looked at him, to which the drunk poked him harder in the ribs again. The student simply smiled and said something along the lines of "excuse me" and turned back. The kid that hit him did not do anything but the much more sober budy appologized and said "sorry, dont worry I will control him".
The student looked at the two and said "lucky its just a poke". The drunk kid said (and by kid I mean 20-25 year old....yes Im that old that thats a kid)" You are lucky it was not a good punch or that I did not clothsline you".
now this is were it gets really cringy. The student turned back around and flashed the JKA of Manitoba logo at the two and said " oh, Im not worried" and left it at that....and turned back around.
I pretty much reamed him out and told him NEVER to show your hands and why turn your back on a drunk in a line up at a coffee joint. Thats inviting issues.
similar story about ten years ago waiting in line at a store to buy running shoes. the kid shoved me from behind, as I knew he was drunk and in a mood (local drunk kids tend to be looking for fights) I spun and as I did I swept his feet from under him and as he was falling I "assisted" his head to the ground....Harshly but I was after all trying to "help" the poor drunk kid. His buddy did not stick around very long and the drunk was "sleeping". Store owner was mad but I told him that he let them into his store, he can call mall security now.
Never EVER turn your back on a potential dangerous combatant! EVER! and if I had not swept him and rammed his head to the floor (which was WAY more luck than it was thought out technique) you still need to think about potential dangers.
No one that has not been in a street fight, a self defense situation with unknown variables should be teaching how to be street smart. They should stick to traditional Karate....techniques and perfecting a beautiful Kata. Thats not a bad thing...thats just the truth!
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jeffcapstick
Member
When your temper rises, lower your fists. When your fists rise, lower your temper.
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Post by jeffcapstick on Jan 7, 2014 10:43:37 GMT
I find it strange when people say "it just wouldn't work on the street" as a blanket statement when talking about real confrontations. Context is everything and you can never say never. Some people say that joint locks do not work. Well, I have used them hundreds of times to great effect, although they clearly have limitations and need to be used in the right circumstances. Some people say that you should always look to strike pre-emptively and escape, but depending upon the situation then that may not consitute reasonable force, may not be the correct response (i.e. if you are trying to help a friend of family member and your 'escape' leaves them behind and still in trouble, or when dealing with a drunk uncle at a party) and you may get in trouble with the relevant authorities.
Genuinely understanding violence is the key to dealing with it effectively and pressure testing in a variety of scenarios is the key to doing this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 13:37:55 GMT
Same issue with ushiro geri - unless you are lightening-quick with the kick, the fact remains that you present your back to your opponent for a non-negligible period of time - during which, the opponent has the option of a simple oi-zuki with a wide target - even in dojo practice, a good oi zuki in the back can give you aches for weeks afterwards. ~~~~ The more your sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle. Who on earth is telling you it is for kicking people in front of you, that is utterly silly for the reasons you give. Ushiro Geri is for kicking someone behind you. It's just that you have to turn around in line work to do it otherwise you would go backwards into the dojo wall. This turn only becomes a problem when instructors misinterpret it and start teaching it a a kick when ere you turn before kicking someone who was/is in front of you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 13:47:32 GMT
Some people say that you should always look to strike pre-emptively and escape, but depending upon the situation then that may not consitute reasonable force The only time this is true is if you attack pre-emptively in the belief you are about to be attacked, and a) that belief turns out to be true and b) you made that decision whilst voluntary in intoxicated. There are no other exceptions. "If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken ..." There is no rule in law to say that a person must wait to be struck first before they may defend themselves, (see R v Deana, 2 Cr App R 75).
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Post by tomobrien1 on Jul 9, 2014 1:26:05 GMT
The rear naked choke is just hadake jime from judo.
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Post by daveb on Jul 9, 2014 9:26:52 GMT
Same issue with ushiro geri - unless you are lightening-quick with the kick, the fact remains that you present your back to your opponent for a non-negligible period of time - during which, the opponent has the option of a simple oi-zuki with a wide target - This is very true for most karateka, but sadly it is because most karateka cannot kick well and virtually none know how to land a kick as a technique in its own right. It's not just karateka either. All techniques have optimal times to use them. The science behind kicking is something I learned from cross training in a specialist kicking art so I don't mean the above as a criticism. First and foremost unless you can kick and have your foot back on the floor in a balanced fighting posture in roughly the same beat as you would through a big right hand punch or faster, then you should not be trying to use that kick. The spinning back kick is best used as a counter attack and is effective from very close in. When my opponent thinks I'm ducking and twisting away from his punch, salivating at the possibilities I offer by turning my back, that is when he feels my heel thrusting into his stomach, lifting him off the ground while his punch is still extended. If used in an attacking combination the kick should only be thrown when the opponent is back pedalling, so his weight is back and he can't take advantage of your turning around. In those cases it is the extension of the leg that will let the kick slide under his defences when he thinks he's out of range. Also note that spinning techniques in general are aimed at fighting multiple opponents as rather than a full 360 spin the idea is to change direction, spinning to face the guy approaching from over your left shoulder, the kick intercepting (countering) his forward momentum.
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