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kicks
Jan 19, 2014 19:32:24 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 19, 2014 19:32:24 GMT
What difference if any do you see between a kick-boxing/mauy thai roundhouse and mawashi geri? In the past I have seen kumite bouts where people have been sparked clean out with mawashi geri but rarely see a knock down in either thai boxing or MMA. Your thoughts?
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kicks
Jan 19, 2014 19:50:55 GMT
Post by garage on Jan 19, 2014 19:50:55 GMT
In the instructions for kick boxing they are using the shin bone to strike. This reduces the speed as the radius is smaller. It is also a blunt instrument as the shock gets spread along the shin bone.
If you use the instep or the ball of the foot, it is travelling faster, you are more likely to miss but if you connect you are getting the same force in a smaller area.
If the head is travelling faster when it is stopped by the shoulder you get more of a concusion and are more likely to get a knock out.
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kicks
Jan 20, 2014 10:27:26 GMT
Post by th0mas on Jan 20, 2014 10:27:26 GMT
To add to what Bert said, there is also the element of conditioning and surprise.
Firstly if comparing MMA & thai vs Karate, I would suggested that as a general rule the contestants in the MMA or Thai boxing bout have trained and conditioned themselves for the bout, whilst the karate chaps tend not to train for full contact competition. This is obviously a generalisation, but as we are talking "in general" your observations Jim are based on the most likely circumstances in which you would witness the knockouts... (basically its a contextual/statistical question)- conditioned/ semi-profesiional MMA or Thai Bout vs weekend karateka entering karate competitions (that might be only semi-contact). I am making some huge assumptions here obviously..
The second point is that surprise is a significant factor in knockouts. A blow to the head at an unexpected point in time or at an odd angle seems to be a correlation in punching knockouts (certainly if you watch youtube compilations). Personal experience suggests that obfuscating the knockout blow improves your chances of KO (however memory and personal experience are a fickle beast at the best of times). The Karate Mawashi geri is a very fast and accurate beast and may fit the above criteria better than the traditional Mauy Thai or kick boxing round house (clearly this open to argument). The kick when performed well comes at a strange angle, it is targeting at the right area (Jaw and temple region of the head), it is very fast and specially in semi-contact competition where the competitors are not looking to guard against full contact to the head, seems to be the right set of criteria for an increased chance of witnessing knockouts.
In summary my personal view is that this is not about the effectiveness of different types of kicks but more to do with the context in which the Knock-out kick was witnessed.
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kicks
Jan 20, 2014 13:13:36 GMT
Post by kensei on Jan 20, 2014 13:13:36 GMT
Funny you bring this up as one of the MMA fighters (Vitor Belfort) just won a few fights with Ko kicks. he attributed it to going back to a Karate base for stand up, and Lyoto Machida also threw a beutiful KO kick in his last fight.
One of the things is the delivery, its faster, the area of contact is smaller and you have the striking point farther away from the knee, which increases power again (think physics lads). also, the delivery is simply less telegraphed than a thai kick or traditional MMA/thai kick. We also see a different use in the hips with the radical rotation near impact, THai kicks tend to not turn the hips as much if ever.
Not to say you dont see as many KO's as you do in Karate, but Thai boxing KO's are normally from elbows, knees or punches...same with MMA. I think maybe the fact that Karate is making a come back in MMA will see more kick KO's, heck we already see Mawashi Geri put to use and now Mae Geri is being used to KO opponents.
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kicks
Jan 21, 2014 11:35:53 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 21, 2014 11:35:53 GMT
Ah now a lot to pick over here! I agree that my observations could be viewed as contextual if they were casual but in fact I posed the question in that fashion for convenience and it was in fact based on lots of trawling through videos for comparison. I tend to agree that it is more to do with delivery. If you look at the Thai boxing roundhouse it tends to begin from the floor to its target at much more acute angle and the lower leg partially extended before the hips are engaged in any way. It is also usually accompanied by a slight hitch forward on the lead leg, thus telegraphing slightly it`s delivery. The only advantage I can see is that the Thai version has is it takes advantage of the opponents " blind angle " in relation to his guard . Mawashi geri can be adapted to do this too however, demonstrated , as James pointed out, by Machida.
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kicks
Jan 22, 2014 12:29:33 GMT
Post by th0mas on Jan 22, 2014 12:29:33 GMT
Although I am no Physiological expert, there does seem to be something about the "unconcious flinch" where the person being hit is able to "roll with the punch" (or kick)as a natural response to a blow to the head - this seems to reduce the damage received and reduce the resulting chance of a KO.
This obviously requires the recipient having some prior warning before the blow lands (all be it before he/she consciously recognises the threat). I don't mean a telegraph type of thing but more to do with a natural reaction using the sympathetic nervous system (a la the flinch resulting from putting your hand accidentally on a very hot surface).
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kicks
Jan 22, 2014 12:38:26 GMT
Post by th0mas on Jan 22, 2014 12:38:26 GMT
...and speaking as a physiological non-expert the above could be complete pseudo-science..
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kicks
Jan 22, 2014 22:48:08 GMT
Post by nathanso on Jan 22, 2014 22:48:08 GMT
Although I am no Physiological expert, there does seem to be something about the "unconcious flinch" where the person being hit is able to "roll with the punch" (or kick)as a natural response to a blow to the head - this seems to reduce the damage received and reduce the resulting chance of a KO. This obviously requires the recipient having some prior warning before the blow lands (all be it before he/she consciously recognises the threat). I don't mean a telegraph type of thing but more to do with a natural reaction using the sympathetic nervous system (a la the flinch resulting from putting your hand accidentally on a very hot surface). Actually, if you had to wait for a response mediated by the sympathetic nervous system, your hand might be burnt to a crisp. The hand withdrawal is due to a spinal reflex. What you probably mean by the "unconscious flinch" is the startle response, and is neither a spinal reflex nor a sympathetic response. It is centrally mediated.
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kicks
Jan 23, 2014 9:26:39 GMT
Post by th0mas on Jan 23, 2014 9:26:39 GMT
Hi Neil Yes.. that is what I meant... clearly my Wikipedia skills failed me..
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kicks
Jan 23, 2014 11:54:17 GMT
Post by garage on Jan 23, 2014 11:54:17 GMT
I think there are 3 stages
Didn't see it
See can't do anything
See it and can react. (or you get better at prediction)
In a Dojo you move forward and they are moving back, not in dojo you are on them before they can move.
Most MMA are awake and paying attention, in a dojo this is not aways the case as if you make a mistake it is not that serious.
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kicks
Jan 26, 2014 4:23:12 GMT
Post by tomobrien1 on Jan 26, 2014 4:23:12 GMT
This guy has a nice hybrid - www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf7oO1uY8mw regarding the KO & reaction time - this is why I tell my students not to ever take their eyes off their opponent. Yeah - protect yourself at all times but if you see it, even just a millisecond before you get hit, you are less likely to get knocked out.
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kicks
Jan 27, 2014 10:33:57 GMT
Post by th0mas on Jan 27, 2014 10:33:57 GMT
This guy has a nice hybrid - www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf7oO1uY8mw regarding the KO & reaction time - this is why I tell my students not to ever take their eyes off their opponent. Yeah - protect yourself at all times but if you see it, even just a millisecond before you get hit, you are less likely to get knocked out. Hi Tom I am not sure I agree with this guys opening interpretations of a "karate-style" kick..Seems very TKD or 1980's sport karate-esque flicky rubbish.. I think the only time I every kicked like that was during my early months of training long before I fully understood the correct body mechanics. But I agree with the second part of your statement. Cheers Tom
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kicks
Apr 28, 2015 5:01:31 GMT
Post by tomobrien1 on Apr 28, 2015 5:01:31 GMT
OK - 3 months in (after hip replacement) & wawashi geri is the hardest. When I kick the heavy bag it reverberates from my shin to my hip. The other kicks - mei geri & yoko geri are getting better.
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kicks
Apr 29, 2015 18:07:41 GMT
Post by jimlukelkc on Apr 29, 2015 18:07:41 GMT
I took a look at the above video and read his editorial, especially his reference to karate. This is not how Shotokan perform roundhouse and I am not a fan of his very limiting sideways stance. He can only really kick from the front leg and is only involving his lower leg in the snappy kick. This is not strictly speaking a muay thai kick either. The advantage a good karate kick has is there is no hitch forward and the hips are engaged . Good luck with your recovery by the way Tom.
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