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Post by makoto on Mar 17, 2014 9:47:59 GMT
In pool/billiards you can see things like Newton's cradle all the time. But sometimes, you also see one ball hit another ball into the pocket, but yet the first ball keeps going. In pool this is not always what you want to happen, but, isn't that the best way to hit something? Unlike in pool, the guy is not just going to be standing there, so if you do get the chance to make contact, don't you want to make sure you give all you got to the target?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 17, 2014 10:22:33 GMT
Hi John
Completely lost now...some of the reasoning actually reminds me of the programme "Lost". Unfortunately our opponents are not round like snooker/pool balls (having said that some karateka are!!)and we are not rolling them into pockets.
I will stick with what I have been taught with over the last 48 years (has worked well so far) and if that ever fails I will run away!!
Best Regards Allan
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Post by garage on Mar 17, 2014 14:52:01 GMT
Hi John
Hit the ball dead centre with the cue the ball will stop and the other ball rolls on, hit over centre and the ball rolls on, hit under and it rolls back. You should be palying about 1 or 2 shots ahead to place the cue ball ready for the next shot.
If you are not playing in the dojo often they are just standing there as they do not keep dancing away from you, and you find they are too close smothering the technique. In funkoshi's autobiography he talks of a guy who techniques makes them fall down not back. It may appear you are giving them everything but you end up pushing them back rather than doing real damage. I think you are still giving everything to the target but you are talking degrees of penertration.
Unlike Allan I haven't realy been taught anything it has all by experiment and the fact I am still standing means I have been lucky. As I get older I have to get more result for less effort.
Newton's laws apply to rigid bodies and humans and pool balls are not rigid they both deform when struck.
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Post by makoto on Mar 17, 2014 15:10:47 GMT
Sorry again if I am not explaining things well. I do not mean to be vague. Bert, what is it called when you sink the 8-ball and the cue ball in the same pocket at the nearly same time? (The cue ball does not rebound anywhere, it is simple that you hit to hard and both balls sink in the same pocket.)
Another analogy, hitting the nail perfectly on the head, or aiming to drive the nail into the board with one hit, how do you prefer to hit a person? I am sure, a "hitting the nail on the head" punch will work with a hit to the face, but what if I did a "driving the nail into the board with one strike of the hammer" type of punch to the face? Would that not be more effective? Would that not be your safest bet when punching head level?
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Mar 17, 2014 17:26:12 GMT
Hi John and Bert
Played snooker and billiards in my youth...the concencous was it was an indication of my youth being mis-spent!!
Terms I remember are top/bottom, left and right hand side, in/off, cannons etc. Playing these games is similar to chess/draughts etc...you are thinking/ playing two or three moves ahead (bit like driving test for Institute of Advance Motoring) of your opponent. Also similar to karate with all having the common thread of spacial awareness.
Best Regards Allan
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Post by th0mas on Mar 17, 2014 19:23:02 GMT
I find this quite a complicated thing to analyse as there are so many elements to breakdown, in a movement all of us understand unconsciously having done it 1000's of times, but will struggle to explain... but here goes anyway.. The problem with using Newton's cradle as an analogy is that it's clear demonstration of energy transference is maybe so obvious to the viewer that it masks the real challenge of striking - how to maximise the momentum (read force) of the punch into the target. So going back to the original premise of the topic... at what point during the punching motion should the fist hit the target to maximise the force of the punch. Now in the newton's cradle the first ball is raised high and strikes the next ball at the half way point of the swing ( assuming there were no other suspended balls in the cradle for it to strike). The maximum force created happens when you raise the first ball to its horizontal position and then let it fall. If you release the ball lower or if the other suspended balls are further away (so that it hits them after the 1/2 way mark) the amount of force is reduced. So how does this relate to karate punching? the point at which you hit the target should be at the optimum moment when your fist is at maximum velocity and the maximum mass has been just applied to the force of the punch: - Too early - and the fist is not at full speed as you haven't had the chance to accelerate to full speed and your body has not released the full torque of your reverse punch (or step in the case of Oi-Tsuki) and therefore not applied all the available mass to the strike. This can lead the left-over Mass feeding the push rather than the strike.
- Too Late - and your fist is already slowing down and a higher proportion of your body mass, that which was being applied to the punch, is coming to rest.
In a perfect world (where we are all of a universal shape and consistency - like a cue ball) the damaging force is a directly proportional to the rate of deceleration of your fist. This means that a whipping action (like a classic Shotokan uraken or the end couple of inches of a reverse punch)when applied to bone structure with little supporting musculature will lead to a break... however this is due to the fact that the body to which the bone is attached is not moving relative to the striking punch.. ... and now we add a whole level of environmental elements - like the target being braced, the effects of shock on different targets, etc etc... Ugh... which is why we have rules of thumb. ..My rule of thumb is to aim to hit the target at the point where my punching arm is still bent (a bit straighter than a shuto), i don't twist the fist until I have actually struck the target. Having said that, this is purely an observation for the purposes of description as the important element is the motion of my body mass which is much harder to describe. so as fast as i can and with all my body weight circumstances nonwithstanding, is where I try and go with this.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 17, 2014 19:52:52 GMT
If you are not playing in the dojo often they are just standing there as they do not keep dancing away from you, and you find they are too close smothering the technique. In funkoshi's autobiography he talks of a guy who techniques makes them fall down not back. It may appear you are giving them everything but you end up pushing them back rather than doing real damage. I think you are still giving everything to the target but you are talking degrees of penertration. I believe Funakoshi's anecdote refers to his Sensei, Itosu. From what I understand, Itosu favoured striking to the back of the head or jaw once he had got a good controlling grip - which then resulted in his opponents face planting into the ground...This is consistent with the large number of hikite and arm locking techniques in the Heian/Pinan katas he developed.
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Post by garage on Mar 17, 2014 20:08:45 GMT
Hi John, when the cue ball follow the 8 ball into the pocket it is because the energy has only part transferred and there is momentum left in the cue ball so it follows into the pocket, so too slow.
So I would want the strike to be sharp at the right distance. 2 inch depth should give max speed as I would be at 70% extension near maximum speed. In head strikes I do not rotate the fist horizontally as this means I would connect with the first joint instead of the knuckles. I would normally leave the fist vertical or at 45 degrees to get into a softer target. This also stops the wrist collapsing if the resistance is more than expected.
Jack Dempsey "Championship boxing and aggressive defence " describes this.
Driving the head straight back is not always most damaging getting it moving fast with a sudden stop is easier. I am surprised by some really weak karate techniques that anyone would laugh at, are enough to stop someone.
I prefer to rise upward from the floor as I have no weight.
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