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Post by daveb on Aug 10, 2014 8:15:50 GMT
What applications do you have for Hangetsu kata?
What do you feel you get from this kata?
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Post by rleggett on Aug 10, 2014 13:35:34 GMT
Application for Seisan double blocks, but applies to Hangetsu here.
Usually when I go looking for kata applications the first thing I do is look at the older Okinawan kata.
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Post by daveb on Aug 10, 2014 17:45:09 GMT
Application for Seisan double blocks, but applies to Hangetsu here.
Usually when I go looking for kata applications the first thing I do is look at the older Okinawan kata. Just one problem. There are no older Okinawan kata. It's a common misconception, but Funakoshi's kata were some of the first recorded. Furthermore, most styles like Goju ryu, Shorin ryu and Isshinryu were founded decades after Gichin Funakoshi got to Japan by people decades younger than him. Isshinryu is not known for having a body of originally presented applications, and this one has a few holes. By all means study variations on the form, it's what I do (and what inspired this thread) but don't let them fool you: your shotokan (original syllabus) is just as authentic and original as the others.
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Post by gazrichards on Aug 10, 2014 23:48:44 GMT
Huh? Are you suggesting that funakoshis versions of the kata pre-date the shorin-ryu versions? Can you back that claim up with any evidence?
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Post by ruestir on Aug 11, 2014 18:35:01 GMT
Just one problem. There are no older Okinawan kata. I'm not sure how you get this. All of the kata practiced by Shotokan karateka today are "younger" stylized versions of their Okinawan variants. The various schools you mentioned may be younger sure, but the kata aren't.
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Post by daveb on Aug 12, 2014 6:05:56 GMT
Nope, those of the original syllabus are stylized versions of older variants ie from bushi Matsumura. Let's turn it on its head. What evidence is there that the Shorin forms are older?
The Matsumura Sieto Shorin ryu traces directly through Matsumura's family, yet some of their kata are closer to Funakoshi's, especially chinto which Shotokan folk get a lot of stick about due to their versions relative simplicity. Matsumura Sieto have no cat stance which many fixate on as being somehow older than back stance. They use a horse stance with the knees pressed outwards like Funakoshi, while Itosu was said to have turned his toes inwards.
These differences in Itosu's style compared to Matsumura's were pointed out by Motobu. Matsumura thought Itosu a crap student and didn't teach him much. His next teacher from naha-te only taught him strength work. He learned his karate from Oyadomari of Tomari.
The fact is that GF was older than nearly all the rest and trained under a different lineage than most (ie under Azato while most other Shorin descends from Itosu). This is why his kata look different. In the 30's Funakoshi said how karate had changed dramatically. We know that Itosu liked to create kata. In fact it's the Okinawan way that every new master puts his personal stamp on his kata with his own adjustments. So it's unlikely that no more change happened after 1925 when we have the earliest records of pinan kata and others through GFs books. Hell GF was nearly dead when Matsubayashi ryu was founded.
Because of the Shuhari principle every line of instruction produces slightly different kata. There's nothing wrong with them. Fixation on "older" is a modern thing. But if we want to find older we need to look at the shortest lines, the fewest masters to leave a stamp on the kata.
Matsumura - Azato - Funakoshi. That's about as short as it gets.
Gichin Funakoshi learned his karate in the 1800s and that is what he passed on.
I think when you leave the bias (from years of hearing how crap and un Okinawan Shotokan is) behind you'll realise that the evidence is actually pointing a different direction to the one you thought.
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Post by rleggett on Aug 12, 2014 15:00:48 GMT
All well and good, but off topic. Can you share some applications for Hangetsu?
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Post by daveb on Aug 12, 2014 22:03:55 GMT
The best discussions are those that go where they will. I am keen to hear any replies however off topic.
Hangetsu is a bit of an odd form in that I don't think you can apply it in the same way as other forms. I think it's something of a fundamentals set: teaching important but foundational principles. A more mechanical and tactical kata than strategic. This is relevant because it's the strategies that require set piece combinations to be encoded.
If I have to pick out one application I think the final move, sliding back into cat stance while chambering the hands then pressing with a twin palm thrust.
Almost all versions end with some kind of retreat and thrust. The clearest is Uechi ryu with a great leap back then forward. This comes at the end of a kata characterized by forward pressure, so it seems to me that this is an emergency move for surprising a difficult opponent.
We also see the only use of cat stance in Funakoshi's whole original syllabus. In most cases back stance and cat stance are interchangeable so why break with convention. Here the stance must have a different meaning.
I surmise that when being pressed with a powerful attack, maybe a long ranged attack, this moves shows us to absorb and over extend the attack by sliding back and pulling the attacking limb. At the same time the lead foot lifts and kicks/jams the attackers shin or knee. This is the slide back into cat stance.
After kicking drop the foot behind the lead leg of the opponent. The twin palm press is twinned in this case to practice both sides. In application this would be a single Palm, the one which held the wrist. This is thrust into the hip/pelvis/stomach to push the opponent over.
Note this will work at angles (one of the key concepts of this form) and as an offensive technique where the wrist is grabbed from a bridge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 21:43:06 GMT
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Post by daveb on Aug 14, 2014 1:18:33 GMT
Didn't like the first one: your asking to get tackled in that finishing position and there will be very few scenarios in which gouging the eyes of someone that you have in that position will be seen as reasonable. Also a knee strike would be better than trying to drag the opponents head onto your knee.
Also you have to consider that the solo practice of the form is training muscle memory for the move. It therefore follows that a dynamic kata move will have a dynamic application and this one does not feel dynamic.
Btw feel free to critique my application. If it's rubbish I need to hear why to be able to improve.
I like the second one a little better just because by including the twist you neutralise the opponent and in bringing them down you have a reason to slide back as in the kata.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 19:26:40 GMT
there will be very few scenarios in which gouging the eyes of someone that you have in that position will be seen as reasonable I don;t think the master that created these were confined by reasonable force laws. If you street trying to fit kata around modern day law then you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, that isn't hat it was designed for. It's like the head stomp in Naihanchim/Tekki you practice it because it's part of the kata, doesn't mean you forced to perform it in the street :-) I'm sorry your Honour, I had to stomp on is head, even though it was unconscious, as it's part of the kata. :-)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 19:36:40 GMT
Didn't like the first one: your asking to get tackled in that finishing position Good point, found another that solves the problem. blog.iainabernethy.com/?p=376
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Post by daveb on Aug 15, 2014 20:29:15 GMT
The vid won't work on my phone :-(
As seen, I separate the kick-punch from the shift back. I like the uses shown. An alternative is to use the kick-back and punch to reap an opponent over.
It's the prevalence of the end movement pattern despite the kata context that makes me think they are different set pieces.
You have a point in relation to the application not being designed for modern law, still I find the eye gouge unconvincing. People don't just sit there and take fingers in eyes, nor do they suddenly go unconscious. More likely they thrash and flail and get free. If they are armed u get cut.
I see eye gouges as a means of getting a reaction; creating an opening to finish, not a finish in its own right.
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Post by daveb on Aug 17, 2014 12:42:14 GMT
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Post by malk103 on Aug 19, 2014 22:16:16 GMT
Why on earth would anyone consider ending a Kata with a block? Not too sure of the other either and can't get Iain's working.
When I see Kanazawa do the Kata he brings the palm heels up to the ribs and slides them down slowly until the touch, ending the Kata. As it's a slow move then I think it shows a grappling type move.
I think the end sequence goes something like a kick to the legs/knee followed by a powerful punch, hence the Kiai, I think the end move is to twist the head around and pull back onto your thigh (going into Cat stance), then push your palms into either side of the neck until unconsious, thus ending the fight. They will be "dazed" from the powerful punch so should have enough time to turn them, pull them back/down to apply a neck squeeze.
Just my ideas...
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Post by rleggett on Aug 21, 2014 18:21:30 GMT
Seisan kata usually ends with mawashi uke. Just sayin'.
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Post by daveb on Aug 21, 2014 22:36:02 GMT
The truth of that statement depends on what you consider mawashi uke: if you mean the movement at the end of nijushiho then that's not the case at all. If your definition is more liberal then perhaps.
The relevance of that statement is entirely in what you believe mawashi uke is useful for.
What do you think it is for? Why did you make that statement?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 10:07:23 GMT
A few intereseting idea's for Mawashi Uke. youtu.be/Eo6K2rcyy74The grappling one you might expect to see towards the end of kata as if you havn't ended the confrontation at the beginning you may well end up grappling, and would expect to see these sorts of things towards the ends of kata.
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Post by rleggett on Aug 22, 2014 13:53:16 GMT
I said that because I think the ending of hangetsu was changed from the mawashi uke. Possibly simply because I have applications for the mawashi uke whereas the double low palm heel as presented makes no sense to me. What is mawashi uke useful for? Well, deflect and push, deflect and armbar, deflect and and kaiten nage, deflect and juji nage, what do you need?
Whereas double palm block .... I've got nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 15:11:04 GMT
Whereas double palm block .... I've got nothing. The video I posted a link to which wont' play on mobiles covers this. You have the opponent the floor (all fours) after taking him down. He attempts to lunge forward and grab your legs (double legs take down). The double hand "block" is pushing down on his head to stop his takedown attempt, you then kick/strike to finish however you wanted.
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Post by rleggett on Aug 22, 2014 15:21:45 GMT
So, turn , sweep/ trip, punch, he tries to grab your legs, you push his head down and knee him in the face. ( the knee seems easier at hat range).
Ok, that could work. Now I need a partner.
Does it seem to anybody else that Hangetsu ends abruptly?
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Post by daveb on Aug 23, 2014 9:09:33 GMT
I still prefer my app! lol But I do like Iain's. It is simple and deals with a problem not previously addressed in the kata (dealing with a tackle).
This is one of the great beauties of kata: the ability to layer meaning, just like the Chinese characters themselves.
What do you guys think of the section after the third gyakuzuki leading up to the first turn?
I must confess this section is the most perplexing for me. I have applications for it but they could always be improved upon.
Also what do you feel is the overall message of this kata?
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Post by rleggett on Aug 23, 2014 14:55:24 GMT
> What do you guys think of the section after the third gyakuzuki leading up to the first turn?
When I'm doing Hangetsu I'm picturing someone grabbing my wrists. I bring the hands up to loosen the grip, then ippon ken into his rotator cuff. A rotator cuff strike is difficult to do accurately but incredibly painful.
If you're thinking "no one would grab both my wrists" think of it practicing both sides simultaneusly.
I've never had a good explanation for the raising and lowering of hands prior to the turn, though.
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Post by daveb on Aug 27, 2014 9:53:05 GMT
I look at the raised elbows as a wrapping/striking combination.
Block on the inside with ude uke, ideally deflecting the wrist with the upper forearm closer to the elbow. This lets you use the hand to pull the opponent in from their upper arm.
At the same time your punching hand slides under the armpit (made easier by the opponent covering their head after a pull) and wraps over the shoulder bringing their head into your chest. Then you just hook theming the side of the neck with an ippon ken.
When the arms straighten your right hand is hooking the chin from behind the shoulder, pulling him away from you and off balance, The left is striking where you please.
Should the opponent extricate a hand he may try to take a swing or wrap his arm around your head. The high mountain hands block, follow with the yoko gedan barrai action to pull the upper arm and unbalance. Use the turn to put him over your leg.
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Post by rleggett on Sept 12, 2014 15:02:32 GMT
Follow up on the discussed application for the "Cat Stance Palm Heel Block" at the end of Hangetsu.
I have practiced it with a partner, and I have two observations:
1. The cat stance makes it really easy to evade vs a tackle 2. The cat stance also makes it really really easy to knee your attacker in the face. In fact, the attacker almost smashes his face onto your knee if you time your evasion right.
Admittedly, this is just dojo experimentation.
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Post by daveb on Sept 15, 2014 21:52:28 GMT
Thx for the update!
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