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Post by malk103 on Feb 14, 2015 22:21:45 GMT
I ran a small Kata workshop today and included Hangetsu, I am aware of the breathing side of the Kata and did some further investigation before my workshop to ensure I had it correct. The standard way is to breath in during the Uchi Uke and out during the Gyaku zuki - based on the first 6 moves - when watching Kanazawa he had more so looked at Shotokan Sensei on Youtube which is the same as Kanazawa. They teach breathing in on the first part of Uchi and Out on the second, then a sharp in breath so you breath out during the Gyaku zuki.
Added to this is when all of the first load of slow movements are finished just before the first Kiai then Kanazawa does 2 short out breaths.
How do you do it, which is the most common or original/traditional?
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Post by Bob Davis on Feb 15, 2015 11:31:42 GMT
Hi Mal
Can't tell you which is more traditional but we were always taught this in the following way (up to move 10) all techniques we performed on the exhale with full dynamic tension and a full exhale (Ibuku style breathing?). The in breath was always short and sharp, so inhale, step and perform the Uchi with full tension on the exhale, sharp in then full tension and exhale on the Gyaku. There's a lot more going on it the first half of the kata with tensions in the whole body but that is where we breath.
The impression I always got from Kanazawa's performance wasn't 2 short breaths (if I'm thinking of the right part) but more emphasising the emptying of the lungs with a forceful exhale at the end of the out breath (just before the turn?)
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Post by Allan Shepherd on Feb 15, 2015 20:49:11 GMT
Hangetsu or Seisan/Seishan means 13 breaths...on each of the 13 there is an inhale and an exhale. First and second Uchi Uke/Gyaku Zuki is two. Third Uchi Uke through to Hangetsu Dachi Kaishu Gamae is third. First ,second and third Hangetsu Dachi Kaishu Kosa Uke/Kake Dori are forth, fifth and six. First, second and third Hangetsu Dachi Uchi Uke/Gyaku Zuki is seventh, eighth and ninth. First second and third Kokutsu Dachi Chudan Uraken Gamae is tenth, eleventh and twelfth. Mikazuki through to Neko Ashi Dachi Teisho Awase Gedan Uke is thirteenth.
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Post by gazrichards on Feb 16, 2015 17:50:35 GMT
Is hangetsu not more commonly translated as "half moon" and loosely based on seishan which means 13? Doesn't the half moon name come from either the semi circular movements of the arms and stances and the story that funakoshi practiced under moonlight (a bit fantastical IMHO)
As for the breathing I see no benefit from breathing in as you block and as far as I am aware the original goju ryu version of the kata never breathes in whilst punching or blockng, only drawing a hand to hikite.
So to answer the original question. I do it very similar to you Mal and Bob. As for the original/traditional way, that's open to debate but I would say find a goju dojo and learn seishan. It changed my perspective on the kata and made me appreciate it far more. As a kata of study the Bunkai isn't all that (in comparison to others) but it isn't meant that way. It is a training kata for body conditioning. Also, I have learned an older shorin ryu version of the kata and there are twice the number of techniques in the kata and there seems to be a far wider range of Bunkai possible.
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Post by D.Ram on Feb 17, 2015 10:41:55 GMT
I agree with Bob as well, and if you read the Kata book from Kanazawa, you'll see more focus on the full-exhale. The idea is to exhale on the uchi uke, then sharp inhale between moves, exhale on the gyaku tsuki, and then force the remaining air out, which will also crunch the stomach a bit and also result in the front foot turning a bit (originally Hangetsu dachi has the front foot facing inwards, but at the end of gyaku tsuki, the foot faces straight). Note that this forcing-out of breath is done only for the first two gyaku tsuki's; in the third, there's only the regular exhalation, followed by hands coming in while fists transform to ippon-ken. Oss. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by daveb on Feb 24, 2015 13:11:02 GMT
Is hangetsu not more commonly translated as "half moon" and loosely based on seishan which means 13? Doesn't the half moon name come from either the semi circular movements of the arms and stances and the story that funakoshi practiced under moonlight (a bit fantastical IMHO) As for the breathing I see no benefit from breathing in as you block and as far as I am aware the original goju ryu version of the kata never breathes in whilst punching or blockng, only drawing a hand to hikite. So to answer the original question. I do it very similar to you Mal and Bob. As for the original/traditional way, that's open to debate but I would say find a goju dojo and learn seishan. It changed my perspective on the kata and made me appreciate it far more. As a kata of study the Bunkai isn't all that (in comparison to others) but it isn't meant that way. It is a training kata for body conditioning. Also, I have learned an older shorin ryu version of the kata and there are twice the number of techniques in the kata and there seems to be a far wider range of Bunkai possible. What makes you think that either the Goju or Shorin versions are older? Neither school is older as all but one ryu founder was Funakoshi's junior by at least twenty years. This is especially where the structure of the kata are concerned even after JKA modifications. What you're observing between Goju and Shotokan is simply different structural philosophies to combat. Goju is a derivative of the Hakka southern kungfu styles that are prevalent around Fujian, the most famous being the various White Crane styles. They advocate less mobile, close fighting with emphasis on vital point attacks and trapping/sticking methods similar to wing chun. Shuri-te based karate is based on more mobile evasive fighting using body shifting to get around the opponent rather than controlling them from the front. Shorin Siesan (including hangetsu) represents the shorin style's incorporation of forward close trapping element of combat. It is most likely an unrelated (to naha seishan) form that was renamed or modified after training with southern Chinese or Okinawans who'd learned from them. The main difference between Shorin Siesan and Shotokan's kata is just how the applications have been encoded. The same features are all present but expressed or emphasised differently. The breathing method that goes with the southern Chinese styles is the foundation of Iron Shirt training. The Okinawans and Japanese do it wrong and don't do any of the rest of the body toughening to make it useful so I don't really bother with it. I only do it if I feel like stressing my lungs or I want to use dynamic tension as a stop gap while I can't get to the gym etc. Otherwise I use the breathing I learned doing southern kungfu which is NOT done using dynamic tension. The emphasis is to move like a whip, throwing your energy through the opponent. The kungfu breathing I learned is to inflate your lungs and try to press the air down into the tendency by squeezing the muscles in that region. Then with the breathing held you move, then when the technique or sequence is over squeeze everything and then exhale sharply through the mouth, letting everything relax with the expulsion of air. It's easy to fall into the propaganda that Shotokan is some modern hatchet job of the deadly ancient Shorin ryu. The truth is that Gichin Funakoshi was a capable teacher of karate well before itosu had a dojo and came up with the name Shorin ryu. What he taught was Matsumura's karate and that was different from the karate Itosu taught. The Shorin schools and the Naha te schools were all founded in the 20th century by people a generation below Funakoshi. Part of the problem people have looking for Bunkai in Funakoshi's kata is that they are looking for how to grapple instead of how to fight. Sometimes a block really is just a block. Understanding why we block moving forward is where the real Bunkai begins. It's not always about turning the block into a choke hold.
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