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Post by ninjaforever on Jul 12, 2016 8:15:15 GMT
Hello to everyone! I have got some question for you:
1- How can you apply Kokutsu dachi on Ju kumite? And on a real street fighting?
2- Which the sense of going to forward on kokutsu dachi?
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 12, 2016 20:53:28 GMT
Hi Giuseppe, It's a bigger topic than the question allows (and once again the answer may be considered contentious by some so take it with a pinch of salt ) Kokutsu dachi is actually one of your most useful stances in "real" karate but of apparently limited use in "traditional" karate (because jiu kumite is practised at sport distance which the kihon of karate were never really intended for) although I would suggest that it is used far more in traditional kumite than may be realised once you understand that the stances there are transitional and about weight shifts and body mechanics rather than a posture for the completion of a technique (just my opinion, obviously). In applied karate I would say I actually use kokutsu dachi far more moving forward than backwards but the distances used are significantly different than in traditional. If you look at something as simple as the start of Heian Nidan or Yondan where you are looking to close down your opponent from the first move you'll start to see uses for kokutsu dachi (this will never work for jiu kumite however ).
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Post by D.Ram on Jul 13, 2016 5:26:08 GMT
Even in sports-kumite, or rather a classroom session of Jiu kumite where we practice beyond the first touch, I find the back-stance very useful - we keep shifting weight from leg to leg, and the kihon-training done in kokutsu helps in easy balance when weight shifts. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by ninjaforever on Jul 14, 2016 14:58:46 GMT
Hi Giuseppe, It's a bigger topic than the question allows (and once again the answer may be considered contentious by some so take it with a pinch of salt ) Kokutsu dachi is actually one of your most useful stances in "real" karate but of apparently limited use in "traditional" karate (because jiu kumite is practised at sport distance which the kihon of karate were never really intended for) although I would suggest that it is used far more in traditional kumite than may be realised once you understand that the stances there are transitional and about weight shifts and body mechanics rather than a posture for the completion of a technique (just my opinion, obviously). In applied karate I would say I actually use kokutsu dachi far more moving forward than backwards but the distances used are significantly different than in traditional. If you look at something as simple as the start of Heian Nidan or Yondan where you are looking to close down your opponent from the first move you'll start to see uses for kokutsu dachi (this will never work for jiu kumite however ). just in this day I am reading a book of Nakayama THE BEST KARATE VOL.3 KUMITE 1 on the chapter 3 about GO NO SEN is showed one stance who look me Kokutsu dachi, I am not sure! Norihiko lida of jka show kokutsu on ju kumite used like a spring for give power to the tecniches look to page 54-55 italian version of book there is a video www.youtube.com/watch?v=caBxkhC1aDglook also this video the shift beeteween zenkutsu and kokutsu www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lInNgYAiUIin my opinion this stance is good for dodge a attack without use the hand, also muai boran use this strategy but there is not sense going to forward on kokutsu in my opinion.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 15, 2016 9:56:43 GMT
And looking at the information you posted and your sources this is the difference between training (and understanding) stances and weight distribution for fighting at sport distances rather than at actual self defence/fighting distances (You still need to put your name in your signature BTW, please do this before posting again, thanks)
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Post by th0mas on Jul 18, 2016 12:20:08 GMT
If Bob is going to be slightly controversial .. I think I am about to step in it with both feet :-)
Personally I would not use Nakayama's books as good source material beyond a very basic reference for shotokan form. Nakayama was one of the key pioneers of "modern" Japanese karate with a heavy emphasis on fighting at long range based on concepts taken from kendo and other re-inventions of real world violence that bears little resemblance to "street violence".
Dodging and blocking through body shifting, whilst effective at long range in a duel type scenario will not work well when in grabbing/ holding range of an opponent.
The best way to understand applications of stances or kata is to think of it from a close range perspective, where shifting you body is all about using body mass and positioning to physically move or unbalance your opponent for your advantage and his disadvantage.
Cat stance and back stance are about supporting trapping, gripping, controlling through dropping your weight down or across or through turning at an oblique angle to your opponent.
I could write a whole lot more on this, but my thumb is getting sore... Hope my point comes across though :-)
Cheers
Tom
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Post by th0mas on Jul 18, 2016 12:26:30 GMT
... Missed a point
Moving forward is all about "crashing" into and disrupting the flow of your opponents flurry of attacks. Never think of applications against single techniques, always bear in mind that things come in multiples and with ferocity and speed rarely seen in the dojo.
... Applications need to be simple, macro (I.e not small fiddly things) and be high-probability (effectively deal with common attacking behaviours).
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Post by D.Ram on Jul 19, 2016 4:02:13 GMT
Tom, is your training mainly focused on close-range combat? I mean, the day-to-day drilling - how does this differ? Do you practice a lot of kihon? Approximately what percentage is spent on Bunkai? Anything I can quickly incorporate into regular training? ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by ninjaforever on Jul 19, 2016 6:44:26 GMT
(You still need to put your name in your signature BTW, please do this before posting again, thanks) I made it, greetings!
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Post by ninjaforever on Jul 19, 2016 6:46:43 GMT
Even in sports-kumite, or rather a classroom session of Jiu kumite where we practice beyond the first touch, I find the back-stance very useful - we keep shifting weight from leg to leg, and the kihon-training done in kokutsu helps in easy balance when weight shifts. ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle Zenkutstu kokutsu In this way In this way?
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Post by ninjaforever on Jul 19, 2016 6:51:33 GMT
Cat stance and back stance are about supporting trapping, gripping, controlling through dropping your weight down or across or through turning at an oblique angle to your opponent. Is there some video that you can show me about this way of using kokutsu e neko, and kokutsu going to forward?
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Post by th0mas on Jul 19, 2016 21:14:46 GMT
Tom, is your training mainly focused on close-range combat? I mean, the day-to-day drilling - how does this differ? Do you practice a lot of kihon? Approximately what percentage is spent on Bunkai? Anything I can quickly incorporate into regular training? ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle Hi Dram It's about getting the balance right. Shotokan training tends to overdo the emphasis on long range fighting and I find that I have to personally focus on short range stuff to get some parity. Nothing wrong with being good at long range (watch Elwin Hall on you tube) but you don't want your karate to only be effective at sparring range. Start with the basics, practice on some 2-man drills with a willing partner. A really good one is using shuto. youtu.be/Vw-wnObCc3UIain abernethy has many examples that are really good ( a number of us on this forum have attended his seminars and I can vouch for their veracity. This will hopefully re-set your visualisation for the shuto application from a long range block to a controlling, trapping strike at short range. The next is focus on drilling techniques for the opening techniques for Heian shodan ( combinations that change the "lower block" to an arm lock/clearing technique followed by strike and takedown). I recommend checking out all his videos. But start simple first because it will be a new approach and you will struggle with it initially. Once you have the principles under your belt, then just start experimenting... Best way of learning. On a side note, are you based in India? I travel reasonably regularly ( I was in Delhi in March and Bangalore in May ) so if you are near I would welcome coming training.. Beats sitting in the bar in my hotel :-). Hope that was helpful. Cheers Tom
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Post by th0mas on Jul 19, 2016 21:17:20 GMT
Tom, is your training mainly focused on close-range combat? I mean, the day-to-day drilling - how does this differ? Do you practice a lot of kihon? Approximately what percentage is spent on Bunkai? Anything I can quickly incorporate into regular training? ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle Hi Dram It's about getting the balance right. Shotokan training tends to overdo the emphasis on long range fighting and I find that I have to personally focus on short range stuff to get some parity. Nothing wrong with being good at long range (watch Elwin Hall on you tube) but you don't want your karate to only be effective at sparring range. Start with the basics, practice on some 2-man drills with a willing partner. A really good one is using shuto. youtu.be/Vw-wnObCc3UIain abernethy has many examples that are really good ( a number of us on this forum have attended his seminars and I can vouch for their veracity. This will hopefully re-set your visualisation for the shuto application from a long range block to a controlling, trapping strike at short range. The next is focus on drilling techniques for the opening techniques for Heian shodan ( combinations that change the "lower block" to an arm lock/clearing technique followed by strike and takedown). I recommend checking out all his videos. But start simple first because it will be a new approach and you will struggle with it initially. Once you have the principles under your belt, then just start experimenting... Best way of learning. On a side note, are you based in India? I travel reasonably regularly ( I was in Delhi in March and Bangalore in May ) so if you are near I would welcome coming training.. Beats sitting in the bar in my hotel :-). Hope that was helpful. Cheers Tom See my response to D.Ram.. Iain's channel will show you many examples.
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Post by th0mas on Jul 20, 2016 7:20:41 GMT
Oops that was for Ninjaforever.
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 20, 2016 8:20:56 GMT
Hopefully you'll be able to access this from here but one of Brian's basic drills for Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan) but a good number of kokutsu dachi going forward applications Brian's Drill
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Post by D.Ram on Jul 20, 2016 8:54:27 GMT
Many thanks, Tom, for your detailed response! Yes, I'm at Bangalore! So if you do come over, please let me know! I train SKIF, hold a Shodan, and have been at it for a few years now. - Deepak ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by th0mas on Jul 20, 2016 10:17:13 GMT
Many thanks, Tom, for your detailed response! Yes, I'm at Bangalore! So if you do come over, please let me know! I train SKIF, hold a Shodan, and have been at it for a few years now. - Deepak ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle Hi Deepak Excellent! I did notice a number of shotokan clubs on google maps when I was there in Bangalore in May! 8 days in electronic city at the Crown plaza got very boring and I would have enjoyed visiting a dojo ... Although how you guys train in the heat is beyond me! Cheers Tom
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Post by th0mas on Jul 20, 2016 12:10:57 GMT
Hopefully you'll be able to access this from here but one of Brian's basic drills for Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan) but a good number of kokutsu dachi going forward applications Brian's DrillThat is an excellent drill from Brian ... Covers a large number of the principles found in Heian Nedan.. To Deepak and Ninjaforever ... Can you spot where they come from in the kata ? :-)
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Post by th0mas on Jul 20, 2016 12:37:53 GMT
Oh, and just to add.. This is just a drill, some of the movement is to support the drill and not necessarily something you would do in actuality.
Once you undertake these types of drills and begin to ingrain the movement with it's foreshortened range, you will be surprised how often you apply them whilst in non-consensual dojo kumite... Nothing more scary for a died in the wool shotokan traditionalist when you step in close and dump them ... Especially when they are expecting you to bounce around at long range :-)
I particularly enjoy applying chokes whilst sparring and using Hidari Manji Uke to lift and dump opponents once you've crashed into them... Does mean I am not very popular with my training partners though :-)
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Post by D.Ram on Jul 22, 2016 13:21:56 GMT
Thanks, Tom, for the pointers. Elwin Hall is stunning, but it got me thinking - in sport Karate, there is always the hang up about the first touch , so you dont land up doing much fighting at all. in a dojo setup on the other hand, you wouldnt mind "accepting" a few from a weaker opponent and then getting in, where you can deliver what you plannd to - in that way, sport Karate training is actually detrimental to real karate learning? Also watched Iain's video. Here, i felt the bunkai suggested is way too complex for real application? I concur that they serve as great drills, and definitely plan to try them out - but would they be any use in front of a real opponent? In this sphere, i find Dead-or-alive type inputs to be much more practical... ____________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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Post by ninjaforever on Jul 22, 2016 15:37:16 GMT
Hopefully you'll be able to access this from here but one of Brian's basic drills for Heian Nidan (Pinan Shodan) but a good number of kokutsu dachi going forward applications Brian's DrillThe video who you posted remind me the wing chun kung fu, o style who have connection with the white crane kung fu, I used trained in wing chun kung fu, I can see thing similar tho PAK SAO TAN SAO ECC, also shuto uke application of Ian Abernerthi remind me the wing chun www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sixd1dJet4
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Post by Bob Davis on Jul 22, 2016 15:55:40 GMT
Hi Deepak
No disrespect intended but I think you have misunderstood what you are seeing (this is not uncommon from karate-ka who think of bunkai as "application" based karate). I had this with one of my own students the other week who hasn't done a lot of this stuff in the past who thought that my Tekki drill was ok but a very long and complicated bunkai for the kata rather than seeing it as set of (very, very) simple bunkai strung together as a practice drill (almost as if that were what kata were intended for )
Although what the video is showing are some drilling of "applications" for shuto etc.. all that is really being demonstrated is the principle making an opening and finishing, it just happens to be done with shuto uke in this case, the more complicated "application" was just a demonstration of a follow up using kata for what happens if your primary strike is jammed and you need to clear a limb to create another opening (which can happen in real life).
There is a problem (this is not aimed at you particularly) of traditional karate students interpreting what the "bunkai" people do as being a catalogue of applications from various kata which is a mistaken impression as it would be foolish in the extreme to try and file away an encyclopedia of kata applications for every situation that may occur, although there are a lot of "band waggoners" on YouTube currently trying to teach that way it seems (the blind leading the blind really ) and this is NOT what people like Iain Abernethy (or Andi Kidd or John Titchen) are really about.
To be honest, once you understand the principles of close quarter combat you probably only need one or two kata to hang the practice drills on to become effective. You don't actually need them at all really but why re-invent the wheel when someone else has already done all the work (and the students you are trying to teach are already familiar with them). The trouble is that we have a number of generations of karate-ka now who have grown up with 26/27 kata, being told that they are important all the way through their training, so they naturally assume that every one contains unique lessons to be learned and that there are hundreds (or thousands) of applications to learn, the reality is that 95% of the stuff in any given kata to any other are just variations on a theme and pretty much tell you the same thing, you may occasionally come across something new but it's relatively rare.
You really don't need anything more than the Heain kata's to teach you everything you need to know (and you don't really need all of them), or the 3 tekkis, etc.. etc..
Which is fine for dojo fighting, but not a great strategy for the real world (although if you find yourself on the street as the recipient of an unprovoked attack by a single, unarmed, smaller and far weaker opponent it may be worth the try )
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Post by enso on Jul 24, 2016 18:08:07 GMT
I agree with Bob about stances and weight shifts. Just speaking in general (not addressing the OP) I pretty much say forget stances. It's about weight shifts and centering and the connection to the floor. I often thought that once karate books started to show up and drawings or photos of positions were shown then those "stills" became what are now called stances. They became law. Then actual names really screwed us up. If we think about it a back stance is fairly new and some systems don't really use one. Others as well as old style back stances are shorter than Shotokans. Grab a partner and the get a fistful (or two) of his go top. Or better yet hold his shoulders, Then without even moving your feet just direct your center or weight and push him, then pull him again by shifting your weight. Now try to direct him downward. You have just transitioned between front, back and horse stance without even moving your leg or feet positioning! Oh no! here come the form police ...quick ...run!!
On another related note as far as Shotokans long back stance you have to remember the Kendo influence as Shotokan is basically a mock sword fight. If you look at old time bare knuckle boxing you will see back stances. A back stance can give you distance and closeness both at the same time. How? Stand in front of your partner and assume a back stance while he is in his fighting stance. Notice how far your head is from him? Safety. But look how close your front foot is (if you're doing it right) to him. Now drag your self toward him without moving your lead foot (basically stand upright). If done right you should be right in his face. So while your head is at a safe distance in a back stance and appears to your opponent that you are too far away for him to strike, in reality you are only as far from him as your front foot and can hit him at anytime. Of course this is only a principle and there would be movement involved in an actual fight and not picture perfect poses/stances.
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Post by D.Ram on Jul 27, 2016 3:57:00 GMT
Hi Deepak
No disrespect intended but I think you have misunderstood what you are seeing (this is not uncommon from karate-ka who think of bunkai as "application" based karate). I had this with one of my own students the other week who hasn't done a lot of this stuff in the past who thought that my Tekki drill was ok but a very long and complicated bunkai for the kata rather than seeing it as set of (very, very) simple bunkai strung together as a practice drill (almost as if that were what kata were intended for )
Although what the video is showing are some drilling of "applications" for shuto etc.. all that is really being demonstrated is the principle making an opening and finishing, it just happens to be done with shuto uke in this case, the more complicated "application" was just a demonstration of a follow up using kata for what happens if your primary strike is jammed and you need to clear a limb to create another opening (which can happen in real life).
There is a problem (this is not aimed at you particularly) of traditional karate students interpreting what the "bunkai" people do as being a catalogue of applications from various kata which is a mistaken impression as it would be foolish in the extreme to try and file away an encyclopedia of kata applications for every situation that may occur, although there are a lot of "band waggoners" on YouTube currently trying to teach that way it seems (the blind leading the blind really ) and this is NOT what people like Iain Abernethy (or Andi Kidd or John Titchen) are really about.
To be honest, once you understand the principles of close quarter combat you probably only need one or two kata to hang the practice drills on to become effective. You don't actually need them at all really but why re-invent the wheel when someone else has already done all the work (and the students you are trying to teach are already familiar with them). The trouble is that we have a number of generations of karate-ka now who have grown up with 26/27 kata, being told that they are important all the way through their training, so they naturally assume that every one contains unique lessons to be learned and that there are hundreds (or thousands) of applications to learn, the reality is that 95% of the stuff in any given kata to any other are just variations on a theme and pretty much tell you the same thing, you may occasionally come across something new but it's relatively rare.
You really don't need anything more than the Heain kata's to teach you everything you need to know (and you don't really need all of them), or the 3 tekkis, etc.. etc..
Which is fine for dojo fighting, but not a great strategy for the real world (although if you find yourself on the street as the recipient of an unprovoked attack by a single, unarmed, smaller and far weaker opponent it may be worth the try ) Thanks, Bob, for your very useful note! Now that you mention it, it seems like a very simple point, but I had somehow not seen it in from this perspective earlier! Time to revisit my kata from the start ______________ More sweat in training, less blood in battle
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