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Post by tomobrien on Jan 12, 2011 3:39:37 GMT
We did gedan barai for a half hour tonight. We did it stepping back & stepping in. We countered with gyaku zuki, empi uchi & tiesho uchi. My arms are sore. But it's a good sore, if you know what I mean. I firmly believe that this is the most important block you can learn. How often do you guys do it? And what types of drills do you use? Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 12, 2011 4:32:01 GMT
sounds like a good old session there Tom I have a MASSIVE gripe about Gedan Barrai. Not the technique itself but the consistant way it is performed. In over thirty years as a visiting Instructor I can nearly always state that 80 - 90% of karateka (including Dan grades ) that I see are doing it wrong and thus minimising its potential and putting themselves at risk of injury. it is all to do with the 5 stages of every technique and the 'chambering' of Gedan Barrai that is almost invariably done with the elbows held too high and thus it is chambered as a Chudan Barrai that then travels further, is slower to deliver and drops onto the incoming technique in a clunking blocking motion.... rather than being chambered correctly with the elbows kept low and thus allowing the technique to follow its correct flightpath which is quicker and is a smooth Barrai not a clunking Uke. I bet i could go to You tube and find example after example of this basic but annoyingly common mistake. the clue is in the name. maybe Dod would like to comment regarding an experience that he and several already long served Karateka had about 25 yrs ago like you said Tom this is a very useful technique and once properly performed it has a myriad of uses.
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Post by Dod Watt on Jan 12, 2011 10:39:11 GMT
25years ago opened up a whole different outlook on shotokan karate for me, I had already been training 10 years when we decided that our karate wasn't going any where and we needed to take a different direction, and this was pronion when we had a visiting instructor show us that we were doing this block wrong among other things. To accept this after 10 years was a big blow but also a breath of fresh air. This block when done right is extremely useful, but you do have to get the 5 different stages right, not easily explained on a forum but to see it visually you know right away it makes sense.
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Post by kensei on Jan 12, 2011 13:30:50 GMT
A few years back Tanaka Sensei tried to simplify a few techniques in a Camp I went to. He pointed out that any punch you do simply starts with straigthening the arm...the rest is details that you work on at the proper pace. Dont get to concerned with the details till you have the basics down. For Gedan Barai he said the first stage of training is to do it like you are ripping a sheet of paper...not a whole phone book. We put way to much power and muscle tension in alot of the things that we do and he showed us the right tension and direction that the movement should go in...interestingly he said the "high chamber" (which sounded much like HI CHAMP BEAR ) was a starting point and at black belt not required or needed, it is training only. I start my Gedan barai rather low and dont push sideways into the leg or arm of the attacker but more of a angle down so as to deflect the attack and not strike to hard on the shin of the attacking leg. I find it much nicer to throw the leg and off balance the attacker than break my own arm or even just hurt myself smashing my arm into that leg. I do often give the calf muscle a bit of a shock at the end but only if I am feeling frisky! Far to often when I teach I find myself correcting the basic blocking techniques, I think it is because everyone focuses so much on the offensive striking and fancy kicks that they oft forget that you wont get to use that fancy kick on this old man if you dont first stop me from smashing your face in!
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 12, 2011 21:39:56 GMT
'Dont get to concerned with the details till you have the basics down.'
this doesn't make sense - the basics are the details and should be taught from the getgo. why train 'in' a bad habit when you can begin by training 'in' good form?
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Post by kensei on Jan 12, 2011 22:09:31 GMT
'Dont get to concerned with the details till you have the basics down.'this doesn't make sense - the basics are the details and should be taught from the getgo. why train 'in' a bad habit when you can begin by training 'in' good form? For me it goes back to sprinter training. When I was a "trainer" with a grp of sprinters (IE I was an athletic trainer not teaching them how to sprint but working with injuries ext) I was introduced to "over movements", that is what I kind of think it is like. When a sprinter trains for a run he will use exagerated movements to get ready in training. Then when he/she sprints they dont focus on the big over movements like the butt kicks and knee lifts in running or the large arm swings, which they actually try and shrink down as much as they can. This is what I equate the basic training in down blocks to. if you start with the fist up near the chin/shoulder and then as you advance drop the chamber lower and still have the same "wired" power then it will be stronger in application.....I think
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Post by shinzan on Jan 12, 2011 22:27:46 GMT
At our club we've have had great classes where we have attempted to use the Gedan Bari in other ways than version which is to SMASH an attack away. I found Gedan Bari works great as a block then a throw or strike. 2 for the price of 1. Can't be bad
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Post by tomobrien on Jan 13, 2011 2:42:20 GMT
Some good input here. This is probably the most obviously used block of all. I use it in jiyu kumite & I used it to save my butt in 2 fights, once to fend off a knife & once to fend off a kick to the 'family jewels' (the guy with the knife lost the knife but the guy with the 'family jewels' kick had friends & I got my butt kicked ). It worked a charm both times & it works for me every day in kumite. You see it in the cage & even in boxing to block/deflect or re-direct a punch to the gut. Thanks Guys, Tom
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Post by fleur on Jan 13, 2011 3:08:22 GMT
Can someone tell me exactly what 'Barai' means. It is the only block with this name attached to it. And I think it is only a shotokan term (I may be wrong here) but this same block is commonly called Gedan Uke in many other styles. Thanks.
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Post by fleur on Jan 13, 2011 3:11:58 GMT
After I posted this, I thought why don't I go look it up on that translation website Steve told us about on facebook. And what ya know - there it was 'Barai = sweep'. Now doesn't that make a lot of sense!
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Post by kensei on Jan 13, 2011 13:45:07 GMT
this is what Yaguchi Sensei told me over lunch 15 years ago.
the Japanese did not have words for many things, when it came time to use a word for something they simply stole the original word and slightly altered it to fit their current intrinsic dialect.
So, when they europeans introduced them to Beer...it became Biiro....whiskey.....Uxisuki (pronounced Utski)...sometimes called Jengrish or Wasei-eigo (made in japan english). other common ones are Pasokon....personal computer...intaanetto...Internet...Kamera...Camera....
These loan words include Barai (parry)....Yes, Gedan Barai...means Downward Parry...or to sweep aside downwards!
Lesson is done y'all. You may now go back to your dojos and tell them the japanese stole christmas...>Krismasu
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Post by shinzan on Jan 13, 2011 16:41:01 GMT
good stuff there kensei but i'm not 100% convinced on your quasi japanese interpretations though but still very interesting. As for gedan barai there is a whole lot more scope for it than one block or parry. there are floowing combintions of techniques in there as we look further into it. We've gone over these at training many times. Great stuff
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Post by kensei on Jan 13, 2011 18:01:06 GMT
good stuff there kensei but i'm not 100% convinced on your quasi japanese interpretations though but still very interesting. As for gedan barai there is a whole lot more scope for it than one block or parry. there are floowing combintions of techniques in there as we look further into it. We've gone over these at training many times. Great stuff I totally agree...but no technique is 100% as it appears. A Age uke is not always just a block as well ;D
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Post by genkaimade on Jan 13, 2011 18:23:06 GMT
Age uke is not always just a block as well ;D Upper-cut of sorts?
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Post by kensei on Jan 13, 2011 18:26:51 GMT
Age uke is not always just a block as well ;D Upper-cut of sorts? yes or a arm break or an off balance...or....well let your imagination go free on that one!
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 15, 2011 15:21:59 GMT
I have found that by training with or watching other styles (especially chinese systems) you will often see things and have a light bulb moment and go 'thats our xxxx waza but they are using it as yyyyy instead of zzz as we do!
And then you realise that Shotokan is actually a very FULL system if explored and taught correctly.
if i had to answer the question - what area is Shotokan weak in?' I would have to say 'ground grappling' - other than that it is a very rich source of MA techniques, strategies etc including traps, chokes, holds, throws, Atemi Waza,.
I personally have not come across another system to match it in this sense.
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