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Post by fujicolt on Jan 16, 2011 4:27:47 GMT
As part of my ‘recovery from Total Hip Replacement’ training regime I am having to be very conscious of retraining my footwork and hand technique timing to ensure that I am hitting from a stable stance and base.
Interestingly I am finding that instead of having to alter the stance structure in anyway because of the significant changes to my body (the removal of a major joint and its replacement with a large chunk of metal!) I gain more speed, power and fluidity of movement by concentrating on trying to create the best classical form in the stances that I can.
Admittedly, I have to be honest and own the fact that there has been considerable muscle atrophy since the surgery and I ache like hell after training but I know my own body and am sure that the soreness is a healthy muscle regeneration discomfort rather than damage. I know this because the pain in the joint and surrounding tissue fades quickly and is further relieved by gentle stretching and a hot bath.
It is somewhat ironic that the damage that I am sure caused me to require a THR was a result of practicing the ridiculously exaggerated stances taught in the 70’s and early 80’s.
Yet here I am decades later using correct form to help me recover from major surgery. Sadly even to this day the exaggerated and dysfunctional stances are still taught in many dojo and I cringe when I think of the damage it is doing.
Thankfully I realised something was wrong in what we where being taught and I went and investigated it all in the early 80’s. Dave Hooper and Dave Hazard where a God send in this regard but alas I look back now and realise that (for me and many others) the damage was already done.
So there is a warning for all in my ‘not unique’ story….
Make sure you are practicing correct form that is based upon spot on bio mechanics rather than cosmetic restructuring of the stances by instructors who should (but don’t) know better.
A THR is a very unpleasant and painful experience and it is likely to take me a very long time to recover to any significant degree - but I passionately believe that a long and vigorous karate career can be available to everyone without the need for such drastic measures to be taken IF they focus fully and continually on striving to achieve correct form.
Not only is it more functional - it is far healthier. Trust me I know. I recommend that you use any and every opportunity to train with and/or study the films of Instructors who do understand correct form and the aligned bio mechanics. The benefits for you will not only be in terms of a more functional and applicable karate it will also aid your health and opportunity to study for many years to come
I am tempted to say ‘Good Luck’ but on this one it isn’t luck it is a simple matter of seeking sound info and working on that info.
So I’ll say ‘good info hunting’ and ‘decades of HEALTHY STANCES for you all’ instead.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Jan 16, 2011 5:20:05 GMT
I couldn`t possibly compare my experience to what you are going through at this time Steve & I hope that you have a thorough recovery from your Hip replacement. I think you have something there on the exaggerated stances being detrimental to our body joints. In particular, I think that we have learned so much on how our stance can either enhance or hinder our freedom of hip movement. Just think, if we just would have used a bit more common sense instead of trying so hard & living with the ` no pain, no gain` crap that we were once force fed. The way that I see it, if our stance is to long & to deep & we have to struggle & push to rotate our hips to the point of not being able to hold this position for very long, then it can`t be good for you. Think about the gyaku hamni in heian nidan. If the stance is to narrow &/or to long, it can be very difficult to do a proper hip placement. Move the foot back a bit & widen the stance a bit & bingo we can rotate to the other side. Also when the stance is really deep, it needs to be wider to allow the hip to move freely, if these things would have been more common knowledge, maybe some of us old farts would be a little less fragile. However, there is always an upside & to me that is; we have more knowledge readily available today than ever before, in a variety of fashions. Wether it be more qualified instructors, books videos, websites, forums or what have you. We should be able to give the next generation the benefits of our learning curves & not have history repeating itself on abusive training. Osu Paul B
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Post by westbfella on Jan 16, 2011 14:35:56 GMT
I started karate aged 12 in 1992 with the JKA (Asai Faction).
I was never taught to have long stances but was took every year to the NIA (national Indoor Arena) to watch the KUGB (Karate Union of GB) national competition.
Watching Kata I was confused with how exgerated all the stances were - if fact it looked uncomfortable and slightly silly.
When I asked the question of why my stance shouldn't be that long - my instructor turned to me and said ask me that in 20 years because I bet all of those with need new hips and knees.
As I got older and understood about different organisations I still to this day do not understand why the KUGB model of karate was so ridgid. I know many KUGB practioners and I'm glad to say I'm friends with them - None of them can answer that question. Was it Frank Brennan imatation? A way of distancing "their" karate from the JKA model? Was it ignorance of body mechanics.
Forgive me. I am still quite young but I do not understand this type of karate from the outsie looking in. The kata below, to me just seems rediculus
I know this man is a hero to so many. But if I was to say "who would I least like to look like in karate" Frank Brennan would be in my top 10.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 16, 2011 16:20:24 GMT
Sadly - though many wont voice it openly but do privately - you hit the nail on the head. Frank Brennan was quite simply unbelievably gifted and a courageous and fantastic fighter but his Kata is not JKA Shotokan and has left the 'exaggerate it all' legacy to this day. But the fault lies not with him but with the judges - it was visually spectacular but nevertheless wrong and they scored him high. I heard that Ted Hedlund had many a row about it - to no avail!
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jan 16, 2011 20:37:20 GMT
It was especially noticable in hangetsu-dachi where we were told to to push the knees inwards, putting a huge amount of stress on ankle and knee joints. As a rule of thumb I have found it helpful to align the knees in the direction of the feet but I am sure that is a tad simplistic.
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 16, 2011 20:41:13 GMT
saw a quote today that sums it up: there is Change and there is Change for the Better: they are not the same thing. I am unsure of the truth of it but i heard that frank Brennan had to travel to Switzerland to have specialist surgery on his back and lower spine to correct the damage caused. Go read the ongoing argument about the 'differences' in a chain of articles in SKM magazine some 20 years ago and yes you guest it - I was one of the authors!
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Post by Syl Walsh on Jan 22, 2011 15:33:56 GMT
Depends how Long a stance you mean? To my mind Shotokan has a long deep stance. I started in Shukokai that had a very short stance, changing to Shotokan with the long deep stance did not hurt of damage my hips and I have been practicing Karate for 43 years now. So it depends how long to mean? If you can turn your hips from the side to the front, then it should be OK! A deep stance gives more power to the technique! People from the Short stance Style will always say (As I was told over & over again) that the long deep stance is silly. but I keep an open mind! Syl
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 22, 2011 15:38:31 GMT
a good approach Syl - I suppose the answer is - stances are a tool to get a job done - so use the best tool for that particular job! they are not the 'best tool' if their structure is damaging you! and many stances as taught by the KUGB can and will do so.
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Post by Syl Walsh on Jan 22, 2011 15:40:53 GMT
Agree Steve
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 22, 2011 15:48:40 GMT
There is however NO DOUBT whatsoever that FB was for certain one of the most formidable fighters the world has ever seen - imagine if he had been at the JKA and done the Instructors course = OMG!
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Post by westbfella on Jan 22, 2011 17:26:23 GMT
I have a doubt. I think he was a good fighter. But the JKA thing (and the conversation has come up on several occasions) never happened because it could never happen or it would have happened.
Frank Brennan could have gone to the JKA but he never did. So but default never would have. If he had that drive (Richard Heselton Sensei springs to mind) he would be there and we might be posting a different YouTube video.
All hail Frank Brennan is fine with me (though I do not). But all hail the potential of Frank Brennan. We all could have, we all should have but I never did........
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Post by fujicolt on Jan 22, 2011 23:33:01 GMT
Well James
I am sorry but on this one i am gonna suggest that you are a tad too young and clearly too knew to Karate to know what you are on about here.
I was there saw it all happening and (a rare occasion here me defending the KUGB) but if you knew what you were talking about (as i do in this instance) you would know that Frank Brennan WAS one of the most formidable fighters the world has ever seen or is likely to see - pure fact.
I like you will question the structure of his basic stances but as i have paired up with him, watched him fight many many many times in reality and watched him face and beat ALL COMERS again and again and again - including Japanese. he was fearless and always showed a superb sportsmans/Karateka's attitude. He could have chosen to go and do the JKA course and would have given those on it with him a VERY hard time had he done so = fact. But he chose to stay here and remain under the tutelage of his Dojo Sensei (andy Sherry ) and his Senior Instructor the inimatable Enoeda Sensei whom produced a chain of Shotokan Fighters that were second to no other shotokan fighters of their era - they certainly matched the top Japanese at the time and were the two teams of the period (England and Japan) that dominated everyone else in the world for about a decade.
to kinda suggest that Frank Brennan was a 'could have' that 'didn't' is ridiculous and somewhat disrespectful to a Karateka whom achieved (rightly so) the respect of the worldwide Karate community of the time.
In fairness to you it is simply an echo of your lack of actual first hand knowledge of that era - which is fine it was before you probably started karate and was definitely whilst your were a youngster.
the O'Neil's, Cattle's Higgins, Godfrey's, Rhodes, Brennan's, Christophers,roberts all were astonishingly good in an era that makes modern stuff look like tick.
Just trust me on this one James cos i fear you could unwittingly make yourself either look daft or make a few enemies that might not understand.
STances and some other NOT JKA issues I stand with you but HAIL FRANK BRENNAN - we all should no matter what era we are from - there has been nothing like him before or since and his record speaks for itself both in and out of the Dojo. Even the Japanese awarded him 'Most outstanding Karateka in the world' one year.
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Post by Dod Watt on Jan 23, 2011 11:14:32 GMT
This is all I have to say about Frank Brennan "AWSOME", what a fighter!
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Post by stevenm on Aug 15, 2011 19:20:26 GMT
I agree that the very long stance looks a little un-natural in Kata. With the championship records of Frank Brennan (and the other top KUGB fighters), in Kumite it would appear to be irrelevant. I find it strange that the KUGB Elite seem to have stances much longer than Enoeda, who is credited with overseeing their training. Was something lost in translation perhaps? Should he have corrected this? Were they merely showing what they thought he wanted to see? Or are injuries and health problems to top Karateka merely caused by the excessive/ brutal training methods of the past? Just an observation.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 16, 2011 3:16:55 GMT
I agree that the very long stance looks a little un-natural in Kata. With the championship records of Frank Brennan (and the other top KUGB fighters), in Kumite it would appear to be irrelevant. I find it strange that the KUGB Elite seem to have stances much longer than Enoeda, who is credited with overseeing their training. Was something lost in translation perhaps? Should he have corrected this? Were they merely showing what they thought he wanted to see? Or are injuries and health problems to top Karateka merely caused by the excessive/ brutal training methods of the past? Just an observation. with the utmost respect Steve, it is FAR from irrelevant - senior judges of the time (Ted Hedlund for example) were complaining about it and they were correct - it caused imeasurable damage and deformed karate and left a legacy that SADLY still endures now. I think the fact that these distorted and exagerated stances were used in Kihon and Kumite BUT not in application in the Shiai Jo or (definitely) the pavement arena is testament to thier incorrect structure and thus purely cosmetic use. they are simply wrong and cause injury - FACT!
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Post by stevenm on Aug 16, 2011 20:24:05 GMT
I meant that they were not an impediment to success. Aesthetically they were less relevant in Kumite, as that isn't what most of us were looking at. I wasn't trying to evaluate the damage caused. Thinking logically, they should make a fighter less mobile and therefore less likely to win against fighters with higher stances. Trouble is, everybody did it. In Kumite, the unpredictability and speed of the directional changes would probably do more damage to the joints than competing in Kata, if my own past problems were anything to go by.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 16, 2011 23:17:29 GMT
I meant that they were not an impediment to success. Aesthetically they were less relevant in Kumite, as that isn't what most of us were looking at. I wasn't trying to evaluate the damage caused. Thinking logically, they should make a fighter less mobile and therefore less likely to win against fighters with higher stances. Trouble is, everybody did it. In Kumite, the unpredictability and speed of the directional changes would probably do more damage to the joints than competing in Kata, if my own past problems were anything to go by. Sorry Steve - I don't think I am quite understanding your point. I get it that the 'hits' in Shiai could cause damage but not sure what you mean by the movement and speed in sparring would do damge to joints - probably me being dumb and not understanding your point. Kindly explain your thinking? Thanks
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Post by stevenm on Aug 17, 2011 18:25:25 GMT
When i had problems with my knee, i found that during Kihon and Kata i was able to avoid pain by changing my weight distribution during the turns. Because the twists and turns in Kata are predictable, i could 'nurse' the affected joint through by minimising any rotational stresses passing through it. With Kumite, reacting to the movements of your opponent takes away that predictability, and i didn't always have time to 'set' myself. This tended to result in the knee buckling beneath me which caused considerable discomfort, and delayed my recovery
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 17, 2011 21:02:51 GMT
Thanks for the explanation - I get it now. Originally I thought you were saying that participating in Kumite would , in itself, cause joint damage but now I get it that you are actually saying that it may agrevate an already injured joint. Happens to us all - you speed type and click Post Message - it is crystal clear in your mind but comes out gobbledegook in the post! ;D
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Post by stevenm on Aug 18, 2011 22:08:25 GMT
The words 'speed' and 'type' do not belong in the same sentence as far as i'm concerned! I use one finger, and even that makes a circular motion before it hits each key.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 18, 2011 23:16:59 GMT
The words 'speed' and 'type' do not belong in the same sentence as far as i'm concerned! I use one finger, and even that makes a circular motion before it hits each key. Excellent Steve - I thought it was only me! ;D ;D
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