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Post by fujicolt on Feb 2, 2011 16:10:41 GMT
totally get your point Garage but the concept of Kime has, IMHO been over exaggerated to the point of being counterproductive and harmful in its own right let alone the over extension probs that you correctly identify
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 23, 2011 20:16:50 GMT
Rigidity and kime are surely not the same thing? When performing techniques against thin air it is definitely safer to apply a certain amount of tension at the end of your technique but hitting a target is another matter. Hyperextension is not so much of an issue and aiming beyond the surface and bringing into play the correct muscle groups at the point you are aiming at is closer to the real meaning of kime in my opinion. learning Kime initially I feel should be about targeting and intent rather than tension. Rigidity is to be avoided dont you think?
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 24, 2011 11:49:27 GMT
Rigidity and kime are surely not the same thing? When performing techniques against thin air it is definitely safer to apply a certain amount of tension at the end of your technique but hitting a target is another matter. Hyperextension is not so much of an issue and aiming beyond the surface and bringing into play the correct muscle groups at the point you are aiming at is closer to the real meaning of kime in my opinion. learning Kime initially I feel should be about targeting and intent rather than tension. Rigidity is to be avoided dont you think? Could not agree more James. It is the balance between relaxed fluid movement and the literally 'split second' focusing of the technique that is undoubtedly the key. rigidity is indeed to be avoided and in fact should, in essence, NEVER occur IMHO
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 24, 2011 19:32:29 GMT
Relax, relax, relax, `make strong`, relax. osu Paul B
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Post by redbudo on Feb 25, 2011 0:57:59 GMT
I'm not sure I can be articulate about this one because the sense of focus is so much part of me that I have difficulty standing outside of myself and discussing it in a way that makes any kind of sense. I will have to talk myself through it and will probably use analogy & metaphor.
I think of it as a degree of tension. Squeeze & stretch. Grab & release. Tense & relax.
Let me start this way.
Aleksei once made a caustic remark about Americans in the family membership fitness centers which are gradually supplanting all of the old school ironhead gyms.
He said that Americans view weightlifting as moving a weight through a range-of-motion in some organized fashion--usually a half-baked isolation circuit. Wrong, wrong, WRONG.
There is only one reason to go to a gym. That is to learn how to develop TENSION. Most of us don't know how to do that; so, we lift weights. You do not mindlessly move a weight through a ROM; you CONTRACT a muscle against a resistance and you train the movement! So, most Americans engage in the task of moving weights around rather than the task of developing tension.
Ok, start with that.
Next, we were schooled (in the JKA) to grab the floor. That power is generated from the floor. This is familiar territory for all of you guys. Grab &. release whether you are standing in a natural stance or mounting a lunge punch. You are familiar with the idea of pushing off from the rear foot while you -grab the floor- with the front foot and pull yourself forward. It's more of a scissors feeling than a stepping feeling.
Think of Frank Smith in full flight. Tension.
Enter the tanren bo. I expect you've heard the story about the sumo wrestler in Honolulu who walked around punching parking meters with an extended knuckle.
I would swing a weighted short staff (the tanren bo) touching my back over my head and swinging it directly overhead and stop in in front around navel height. No trick in swinging it. The trick is in stopping it in the space of about 2-inches. Swing slowly and stop it with a wringing action on the handle as if wringing a towel. Total tension of the entire body at that moment. Kime if you like.
Yes, you get stronger and you learn how to use tension. But, the real purpose is to pre-exhaust the shoulders so that they relax and you punch from the hip. Think of Pujols swinging a baseball bat--he swings from the hips. Watch Lyoto Machida punch, even when accomodating himself to MMA style.
Elsewhere, on this forum, I alluded to transferance and crossover in body mechanics to different sports.
Well, you do a standing press by generating force from the floor through your heels to drive the weight upwards. While you do it, you stack your joints so that there is no energy leakage,you tighten your armpits, set your shoulder, etc.
Tension, whether gradually applied; or, explosively applied (kime) as in a deadlift is universal to everything we do. I don't understand what is controversial about it.
I had to rehab my wife at the smelly end of the gym (not the Sally Field end) and I had to instill these ideas into her. I started by showing her how to do flyes on a Free Motion cable machine. Most birds will take a staggered stance bend over and do the fly in a bent-over decline version and they will drag the handles from the back to the front in a rowing motion. But, it's not a row. It's a SQUEEZE.
Better. I had her stand in a natural stance. I made her grab the floor and to exert slight outward tension at the knees as if performing a squat. Then I had her counter-rotate her legs slightly to develop tension from bottom to top. Activate her glutes, look straight ahead and SQUEEZE taking care to track the elbows to track the lines of force. Tension. It helped that she has seen Higaonna perform Sanchin.
This is not the bodybuilding move for upper chest development that you normally see. The only concern was the development of anterior core strength. I bought her an ax handle to use as a tanren bo. And, yes I pound truck tires in the back yard with a sledge hammer. I think I mentioned elsewhere on this forum that while sparring we simply never cared about any intervening element like an elbow or forearm while performing any kind of punch.
That's what tension, pre-tension, and kime will do for you. Don't think about it. Train the habit.
Back to my wife. At the gym we see birds doing endless arm curls and tri extensions with zero effect. They will do upward presses in isolation fashion while sitting on a bench or isolation machine. I schooled my wife to tighten up even when sitting in an isolation machine. Don't sit like a lump while moving the arms. Set the seat low enough and plant your feet and grind yourself into the machine and move that weight in the same manner as if standing unsupported.
I have never had so much as 10 seconds of training in any aspect of lifting weights; but there is crossover and transferance in habits of mind developed in the JKA. Aleksei was my rusty nail during my own rehab and he expected to be a trainer as well but he was flabbergasted when I did everything he asked with perfect form! His words -perfect form. Aleksei is not given to offering compliments.
My point is that these attributes are important in ways that go far beyond a martial art. Mikami had us perform drills in ultra-slow fashion and forced us make every move a deliberate act as we successively triggered a cascade of muscles culminating in a highly contracted kime.
Similarly, in the weight room each rep is a deliberate act. I don't think in terms of sets. i break down sets to individual reps and even at the failure point of that last rep, I deliberately send a signal to a muscle that cannot contract. But I still send the signal. On this last point Google the name Valentin Dikul and see what you find.
All of this I learned through the martial arts. Nowhere else.
Chuck
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 25, 2011 3:51:43 GMT
Keep it coming Chuck!!!! Osu Paul B
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Post by redbudo on Feb 25, 2011 16:02:24 GMT
I re-read my post from yesterday and realized that I, as usual, was obscure about some of the points mentioned.
I have a couple of difficulties here: it's hard for me to talk about it because it's a little bit like talking about how to drink water.
The other major difficulty is that I do understand that I'm speaking to a sophisticated audience who can parse all of the implications contained in a loaded word--I do speak in shorthand. To go into more detail begins to sound patronising and then I would lose most of you instead of the head-scratching that I would rather invoke.
But now, I realize that there are many newbies out there who might find some value in a slightly idiosyncratic viewpoint. So, I'm going to take another run at this and beg the indulgence of the rest of you who have gone far beyond all of this.
I mentioned that the primary benefit of a tanren bo is to pre-exhaust the shoulders so that they relax and you train your musculature to punch with the hips.
Fists relaxed, arms relaxed, shoulders relaxed. The rest of your body is in a state of pre-tension which some call feedforward. All of you are very familiar with this but it's worthwhile to consider what is really happening so that you can train certain attributes.
Feedforward. Think of a gymnast on the rings and the tremendous strength on the one hand together with the tension on the rest of his body so that he does not break form. A lifter who can dead 1000 lbs will pick up a 45 lb bar with the same effort and pre-tension as if he were lifting that 1000 lbs. An arm wrestler who loads up an instant before the -GO- signal.
We are shotokan. What I'm saying is that there is some value in performing Sanchin.
When you punch a makiwara your arms, fists, and shoulders are relaxed until kime and contact. Your spine is held in isometric contraction & your trunk rotate as a unit--your shoulders & hips move together.
You do not want rotational strength. You want anti-rotational strength to protect the spine.
It's ok to twist in the upper thoracic part of the chest. Just don't do it down in the lumbar region.
Google around and you will find this subject discussed in training for lacrosse or soccer. Google Mike Boyle.
Back to tension. The idea of training the movement and the twin idea of continuous tension throughout the movement are abstract to women. You guys more easily understand it.
I was having difficulty getting my wife to apply this thinking while doing a seated cable lat pulldown; so, I broke away and walked her over to an assisted pull-up / dip apparatus. I told her to do 1-set of 1-rep. Thirty seconds up. Thirty seconds down. She got it!
She could now go back to that cable lat pulldown and maintain constant tension on the concentric phase; pause & squeeze the shoulder blades inwards and downwards at the bottom contracted position; then maintain constant tension during the eccentric phase all the way to the top stretch position. Smooth out the rough edges & polish up. That's what the Russians mean when they say - don't train the muscle, train the movement. For the rest of you--it's Zanshin. The Remaining Mind.
Some background.
Some years ago, Virginia had a severe back injury so that she had some nerve damage and muscle atrophy so that she tired easily while walking. When tired, she would drag her left leg along. She still cannot drive a car with a clutch. She finally had enough & decided that she needed to go to the gym but only if I supervised.
No group classes; no personal trainer; no cardio nonsense ( I will explain this someday if anyone cares for it as a topic). So, I spent a lot of time with her on essentially powerlifting ideas; bi-pedal patterning; etc. All from my JKA sensibilities. Tension.
One of the first ways to instill the idea was with a Free-Motion cable machine.
Looking around the gym it's easy to spot birds performing flyes in an open-chain, lack-of-connection manner with decline bodybuilding movements. They set themselves ahead of the pulley arms and they drag the handles turning the movement into a row. But, it's not a row; it's a SQUEEZE. And, if they use any real weight, they are damaging their external rotators. Competitive swimmers have this problem with external rotation.
More better. Stand upright facing out and place yourself in line with the arm pulleys. Grab the floor (echo JKA); slight outward pressure at the knees as if doing a squat; counter-rotate your legs outward (Sanchin); activate your glutes so that you squeeze a penny down there; look straight ahead and SQUEEZE!
I'm not interested in any bodybuilding nonsense. This was for the anterior core.
All of these ideas are inter-related. You newbies might not have the visual images to match the words as you followed the discussion on Mikami, Frank Smith, Sen, etc. Abstract.
So dig out on the 'net that classic photo of Frank Smith delivering a straight punch drive to Kenneth Funakoshi in mid-flight with fully rotated hips while his front leg is still in the air. Mr. Nishiyama is the referee. We are talking about the application of power.
It's an example of wrong-foot timing where the punch beats the lead foot to contact. A lunge punch initiated as if it were a reverse punch.
Less obviously, that photo also depicts mastery of time and space. The game within the game. Sen. Ooda Loop if you like. The destructive mass is just about to arrive at the point of focus - the schwerpunkt - but the mind-scramble has already been achieved.
Rambling as usual. I'm just making the same point in different ways.
Chuck
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Post by redbudo on Feb 25, 2011 20:07:40 GMT
Re Board-Breaking
Well, Bert, I have nothing profound to say. We just didn't do it.
But, here's a story - once we were at a tournament and a demonstration was part of it.
I had to break boards and I had never ever done it before.
I mentioned that & sensei's reply was - of course you can break boards; how could you not? In any case, this would be a good time to start.
In front of hundreds of people.
Well, the person charged with going out and buying some pine boards brought back a pile of green wood. Not dried wood.
It would bend before it would break.
First person up had been North Kyushu champion & he definitely had a strong punch. It might have been 2 or 3 boards held horizontally.
Without hesitation he punched hard and I saw his eyes go wide unbelievingly. The boards hadn't broken and we could actually see the indentations in the wood from his fist.
Two more tries and he finally split the boards.
I was next and because I was junior mine would be a front kick -kekomi-against boards held in front.
I knew that I was in serious trouble. I just put it out of my mind and went through just as hard as I could muster.
The boards shattered and flew everywhere and I turned around with no expression -really cool- and walked off stage.
Soon as I was out of sight I limped and hobbled the rest of the way. Good thing I didn't have to spar that day.
I never ever saw anybody ever train for board breaking. It was considered just another day at the office.
Another allied point. Kitakyushu University was very highly regarded at the time. Nobody ever trained in order to peak for a certain event as is common nowadays.
We simply trained. The only advance notice might be when a senior student might walk up and say - Hey Martinet. You're going to compete Saturday. That was it.
Another day at the office.
The only thing substantive that I might offer you is to do support exercises to ensure that your body can handle certain stresses.
Make yourself a tanren bo and learn how to use it. You will develop Popeye arms like tree trunks all the way down to the wrists; not the silly sarcoplasmic pumped up hypertrophy that bodybuilders aim for. And develop your hip action.
I think there's an article on the 'net authored by Kim Taylor on training with the tanren bo. He must be a kendo or aikido stylist because they're into that sort of thing. He also makes custom wooden training weapons.
Or, you could do what the Cubans do. At Beijing they were talking about the primitive training tools that the Cuban boxers used. Old truck tires which they pounded with sledge hammers.
Imagine trying to stop or block a punch by someone who trains by swinging sledge hammers.
I do weights at an old-school free-weight gym. They have a whole array of sledge hammers of different weights which they use to pound a bunch of truck tires outside. Also kettlebells. Chad Aiches trains there. Look him up. He's a well known power lifter.
I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm not a big believer in specificity in training. Specificity usually just messes up your form.
Go for big compound dynamic movements and global strength rather than isolation.
Slightly off subject but it's the same point.
If you were a serious runner you quickly realize that running on a treadmill would mess with your stride in very bad ways. You can watch joggers outside. They move in a staccato fashion with a vertical component added to what should be a horizontal progression. Athletes run like cats.
You can obtain a correct stride by running up a hill. It's self correcting.
The runners I knew never jogged. Ever. They sprinted up hills. Then they would pick a longer hill and lope up that. They would find a soft sand beach and run barefoot. NFL football players used non-motorized tred sleds to develop the driving muscles in their legs. Never jogging. In this case it's strength based endurance; not cardio based endurance.
That was a slight diversion but the point is the same. Train you neural patterning with high rep karate drills. Then get global strength elsewhere.
Others have differing opinions of course. You will have to find what works for you.
Hope that helps.
Chuck
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Post by redbudo on Feb 25, 2011 22:30:39 GMT
Bert,
Something you said bothered me and I needed some time to scratch my head.
You mentioned that you had been doing a jo kata but that tennis elbow was bothering you. I'm not claiming that I have a solution but there are a few things you might think about.
- I remember reading an article in Ironman magazine about tennis elbow. That it usually meant that the forearms weren't strong enough. The result was that the nerve running across the elbow joint was irritated.
In my case, I was doing overhead lifts in a Smith machine and there was a particular sticking point where I got tennis elbow pain. I didn't want it to become chronic so I started to do overheads with dumbbells - end of problem. But I didn't like the forearm comment & I didn't want a recurrrence.
So, I started to work on my pinch grip strength by walking around the gym pinching plates between my fingers. E.g. I would hold (2) 10 lb plates together by pinching them with my fingers--not by carrying them through their handle cutouts.
Aleksei once made a comment to me that only wimpy Americans did girlie wrist curls. That wouldn't do anything. Strong arms and strong grip came from holding heavy weight. So, I got into the habit of -at the end of any set doing deadlifts, shrugs, upright rows, anything- I would just let my arms hang holding the weights for 30 secs or so.
-2 When handling any weapon -I learned this from Ted Lucaylucay who liked to play with a fencing foil- to move slowly and avoid fast movements. With a jo, I would avoid kime pattern stops. I don't care what the kata demands, I wouldn't do it. I would practice striking through the target and let something else stop it. That's why God invented old truck tires. You see aikido guys striking tires with bokken.
To the extent that you kime or tighten up; do it with the rest of your body - legs, ass, abs, but not with your forearms or wrists. When the strength builds up - you might then figure out how to do it at the wrist. I don't practice with weapons so I might be off base here. To the extent that I have done weapons I always struck through the target rather than stopping at an aiming point. In karate terms, our mental aiming point was through the body to the spine. Again, you'll have to ask someone more expert than me.
-3 I can't think of a better way to teach the body how to tie up than to use a tanren bo. But, you have to start very slowly. And you have to be very careful to avoid flexing the wrist at the end of the swing. You wouldn't flex your wrist punching a bag or makiwara. Don't do it while swinging any kind of weight. You will injure a tendon.
Generally, when I'm stopping a tanren bo at the end of it's arc I am wringing the handle like a towel and most of the tension is in my armpits.
I am not giving you any suggestions about what to do. You have to take the lead and think about these things. I'm only pointing out a possibility.
Good Luck,
Chuck
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 25, 2011 23:54:51 GMT
It's an example of wrong-foot timing where the punch beats the lead foot to contact. A lunge punch initiated as if it were a reverse punch.
chuck this is NOT wrong -foot timing at all that you describe and it is actually Okuri Tsuki - taught in the UK for the past 40 and seen extensively in tournaments by the likes of Steve Cattle and Billy Higgins to name but two of many. very effective in street situations to cover ground, hit hard and then by right 'on' the attacker'
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Post by redbudo on Feb 26, 2011 0:32:09 GMT
Good eyes, Steve and good analysis, so , , ,Hmmmm, , , possibly, , , I see what you mean.
I think it was Tonny Tulleners who did that to the Japanese team captain, twice, when they visited the United States. It shook the karate world at the time and the Japanese ended up drinking a lot of beer over that.
No, I like your point and ordinarily I would agree with your assessment. i can't disprove it because I wasn't there and I only have the photo to go by. But,
What I described was so characteristic of Frank Smith. He wasn't very keen on distractive elements - he just barrelled in like a freight train and his sense of timing was superb.
I'm not saying that you're wrong, Steve. Your take makes total sense. It's just that I remember Frank Smith.
Good one. Thanks.
Chuck
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 26, 2011 1:41:04 GMT
steve cattle used this technique to win the europeans in about 1970 - as taught to him by Kanazawa sensei. it honestly is very common over here and youll see it often - for at least 40 yrs.
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Post by redbudo on Feb 26, 2011 22:20:55 GMT
Sorry Bert, but there's another small or big point that should be made.
You were complaining about tennis elbow and I zeroed in on that while forgetting that your very first example was that of a downward block using focus as a means to avoid hyperextension at the joint!
Ok, be patient with me here & please forgive me for throwing up exp in Japan--but that's the best part of my take on this.
They were (the Japanese) were not big on verbal explanations. And our karate training was mostly endless (and I do mean endless) repetitions of basics. The most advanced students performed simple basics.
Seems like mindless rote instruction.
But! They were meticulous in making sure that we got it right. Got it right from the very beginning. They would make the tiniest corrections.
We might think that the body would figure things out if only we did a sufficient number of high reps. The Japanese are really into high reps but only if you do them from the beginning perfectly. And I do mean perfectly.
My very first day of practice i remember vividly. A senior student started me off doing standing straight punches. He did it, then I did it. He patiently corrected every little detail. One of those small details was when I had my extended arm and fist in front he strongly emphasized that I should not lock the elbow and allow the joint to move inwards horizontally (hyperextension). I had to maintain tension at the elbow joint.
From that very first session I knew not to hyperextend any joint in a locked position.
Similarly, I was never permitted to do a downward block with a fully extended and locked movement.
Even in a front stance; that rear leg is not totally straight and locked. The knee is very slighly bent and you apply tension to your hamstrings while your glutes are activated.
This might be difficult to correct at this stage but you need to do it. Probably under the watchful idea of an experienced senior because you might not be aware of what you are doing in this particular manner.
These days I have seen snapping type movements encouraged so a lot of these fundamental ideas are lost (?) but they are the key to develop injury free power.
Nobody said this stuff was easy.
Chuck
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Post by redbudo on Feb 28, 2011 16:52:07 GMT
The original post was in re focus et al to stop injury. But, some of the discussion ranged far & wide and it re-awakened some old memories which I would like to offer fully realizing that it's really old-hat for more than half of you.
#1 down block -gedan barai. It's a hard block with focus during basics drills.
But that's dropped pretty quickly as soon as you put it together with dynamic movement. During basics you are learning some very basic skills which have very much to do with training the muscles and supporting structures for kime.
Later, this hard block morphs into a sweeping motion. We are meeting the kick (or, whatever) and riding it slightly. Or scooping it if we want to get fancy.
#2 to the extent that we take a stance while sparring, our elbows are in front with a slight amount of pre-tension. The fists are tracking the opponent's face. The elbows take the inside line--they do not bow out.
Blocking now becomes very simple. You no longer need to extend the forearms. You just move the elbows. The elbow and forearm positioning forces your opponent to strike from the outside. You are really only moving your elbows slightly downward or to the side to parry any strikes.
E.g. to ward off a hard mid-level roundhouse coming at you from; say, your left - your left elbow/forearm moves out slightly to your left to meet the attacking leg and the flat of your right hand gives an assist. The assist will allow your blocking left hand to very quickly deliver a straight kizami to the face.
Those of you who have practiced any of the Filipino close-in fighting arts will immediately recognize this block/assist/jab attack complex. In reality it's almost simultaneous.
In other words, you control the centerline and force him to play the angles. And, to make him back up.
The same idea holds in wrestling. You use your elbows in front of you to push against your opponent's chest for distance while hooking you hand behind his neck to simultaneously pull his head down. You now control him for whatever next you might try.
You still need the hard-block sometimes (Enoeda/Shirai) but you already know how to do that. And, more often the hard block sets you up for something unfriendly.
My only point is that basics teach form and body dynamics. Then you begin to simplify those learned movements somewhat when there is somebody trying to kick your head off.
Chuck
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 1, 2011 2:54:33 GMT
it may well be Old Hat to some here Chuck but we have all grades and experience as regulars here and it is therefore a useful Old Hat and nonetheless interesting for being so!
I personally always advise the following:
if we imagine that a 100% perfect 'technique' will provide 100% effectiveness - even overkill - but 75% would have still done considerable damage, 50% would have been touch and go and minus 50% would be failure then:
In basic practice - - practice to an aim of 100% - Not only because you are learning to have detailed control of your own body but it has to be accepted that the secondary elements that impact upon 'real' exchanges may diminish your technique etc to say 75 - 80%
therefore - if we only practice to only say 75% then we run the risk in only achieving 50% in real application.
practice to anything less than 75% say 65% then we are surely on the road to failure.
and with the original point in this thread to mind - practicing to 100% must surely include a 100% percent attention to body mechanics and muscle usage to not only create proficient technique etc but also to avoid injury.
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