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Post by guyakuzuki on Feb 18, 2011 12:08:22 GMT
In shotokan I learned not to turn the pivot foot before you kick as this would "telegraph" your kick.I learned in kyokushin though to turn the pivot foot before actually kicking mawashi geri.From experience I know that the latter "feels" more powerfull.It's difficult to explain in words but I found this video to explain it a wee bit. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWu3dsmDurU&feature=relatedI would like to know what you "more experienced karateka" on this forum think about this video and/or how you practise/perform mawashi geri?
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Post by kensei on Feb 18, 2011 14:21:33 GMT
I tend to turn it WITH the kick, not before or after. Turning it before telegraphs it and I can tell you that movement both in, back or just outisde of the power of the kick would make it pretty useless for someone to let me know they are about to kick me in that way.
Also turning after can cause you to "turn out" of your knee, Yes this is as painfull as it sounds. I have seen people trash their knee turning out the knee or spinning and letting the lower leg remain.
My suggestion is to pivot on the heel as you kick! make it one motion and you will A) Catch the partner more often, B) Keep your knees in good/better shape and C) keep the power of the hip moving into the target.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 19, 2011 3:05:34 GMT
it has been my belief for many yrs that (as with certain other technigues as well) mawashi geri has fallen foul of being seen as 1 kick when in reality it has many legitimate variations - each designed to be used in different ways - and thus should IMHO be classified as a set of kicks that are similar but different (usually in the timing and positioning involved in the transient aspects of the body mechanics involved but this can also include the 'weapon' used as the impact point and of course whther or not the kick is used in a snap, thrust or swing motion).
By way of anology think KNIFE. this is a word used to describe a particular implement that can be used as a weapon - however we are all fully aware that the term covers objects of vastly different design, aimed at various usages and varying in the manner that are moved to obtain maximum success in their use.
I believe that certain Karate techniques have become 'limited' not only in their study but also in their usage because they have become labelled as being 'correct' if delivered in one particular fashion.
even when the mechanics of a particular mawashi geri variant are performed in exactly the same way, the application of the timing of those body mechanics can change the kick significantly.
If we take the widely accepted Classic form of mawashi geri and concider the timing of the movement and positioning of the
. pivot of the support leg/foot, . the hip, . the outgoing knee . the lower leg and foot
it can be varied so much that in essence the variations are causing such difference that is misleading to label them all as simply Mawashi Geri even though all are correct
I am not suggesting that Mawashi Geri cannot be performed incorrectly but i am stating that there are so many variants of it that answering the question posed in this thread would, i believe, require a very detailed book or a video tape of several hours duration.
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Post by guyakuzuki on Feb 19, 2011 7:20:01 GMT
Thank you all for your intresting replies.(I found the dog and the lamppost very funny garage yet a good way to describe the classical mawashi geri):-)) @steve Talking about the swinging version of mawashi geri In KK we had a kick called soto/uchi mawashi geri keage(the "soto" version resembling mikazuki geri but with the leg more straightened)/.here's an example of soto maw.keage. www.youtube.com/watch?v=whe5wPrirxois it that what you mean by "a swinging motion"(as I've not seen practised this soto maw keage in shotokan so far)?
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 19, 2011 7:36:03 GMT
Shotokan has many versions guy. the forerunner of what we now refer to as Mawashi Geri was Furi Geri (and there was also Furi Tsuki)
Furi translates more akin to 'swinging' and they resembled (as examples) the Thai Boxing 'swinging rotational kick' and a 'right cross' from boxing.
I hope you didn't think I was avoiding answering your question but i would have been writing for hours to show all variations. tis sometimes hard to describe physical movement in the written word without writing pages and using diagrams - tis for me anyway - much easier to teach directly.
Sadly the variations are not consistently taught (as with MANY shotokan techniques) and hence so many Dojo only practice about a 3rd of the full shotokan arsenal IMHO.
even if we just concentrated on hand techniques there are many very efficient techniques that just are not practiced regularly and even on occasions when they are it is just because they happen to appear in a Kata.
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Post by guyakuzuki on Feb 19, 2011 8:26:02 GMT
Shotokan has many versions guy. the forerunner of what we now refer to as Mawashi Geri was Furi Geri (and there was also Furi Tsuki) Furi translates more akin to 'swinging' and they resembled (as examples) the Thai Boxing 'swinging rotational kick' and a 'right cross' from boxing. I hope you didn't think I was avoiding answering your question but i would have been writing for hours to show all variations. tis sometimes hard to describe physical movement in the written word without writing pages and using diagrams - tis for me anyway - much easier to teach directly. Sadly the variations are not consistently taught (as with MANY shotokan techniques) and hence so many Dojo only practice about a 3rd of the full shotokan arsenal IMHO. even if we just concentrated on hand techniques there are many very efficient techniques that just are not practiced regularly and even on occasions when they are it is just because they happen to appear in a Kata. no Steve I certainly wasn't thinking you were avoiding the question.I'm very gratefull to hear everyone's thoughts and I also understand that sometimes it's difficult to explain things in words.I'm sure that you can find everything in shotokan but like you said most of the time some shotokan instructors seem to stick to a syllabus which only contains a certain part of the whole karate arsenal.In a way it's sad that people have to go and explore other MA's because they don't get the full picture in their dojo(not from what I've seen around here anyway).It was one of the reasons I took some time off from shotokan(apart for some other reasons too I admit )and went to train in kyokushin to broaden my MA horizon .On the other hand it's maybe due to lack of time(not all practitioners train every day)and the grading syllabus requirements that they just teach by the book.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 19, 2011 10:53:01 GMT
a very good reason that the grading syllabus requires change - imagine in any endevour sticking to a rank advancement syllabus - pilot training for example - where the syllabus only required study and skill in 1/3 of the available techniques and skills available
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Post by guyakuzuki on Feb 20, 2011 15:31:03 GMT
I think of KK like a glee mash up between Shotokan and goju. If you read about Mas Oyama it probably is. I train with a guy that has done kk for about 40 years and we don't think they are hugely different in that we don't find it much problem to train together. it is a mixture of shotokan and GR indeed but has also taken some techniques from Muay Thai and even aikido.I found the sparring different and it took a while to get used to the low kicks,hard body shots from close by The swinging kick is in Godan, Bassai dai, Kanku Sho, Unsu etc it is a question of what you choose to practice. ah it's mikazuki geri thanks for explaining that one The swinging kick inside out can be fun as well as it get inside a guard. A foward roll extending the leg bring it down as an axe kick is entertaining as well. Not bringing the legs together to protect the groin makes it easier to kick in the nuts in kk as they move forward. Not covering the face for a direct punch is a classic for KK. Fist under the armpit driving downward feels great. A raft of basic katas that are simply exhausting. It is just a different emphaisis. Both KK and shotokan are hard styles perhaps investigate something a little softer would help you relax and give a different view point as they are both very similar. ]if I had enough spare time I certainly would, but with work and family commitment I'm glad I can train a couple of times a week in the shotokan dojo,train at home on other days or go to a course now and then ..so the softer style will have to wait I'm afraidIt meant to be fun after all. " I get knocked down, I get back back up again" www.youtube.com/watch?v=LODkVkpaVQA I play this whilst training to get the kk feel. good one ;D
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 21, 2011 14:08:33 GMT
just out of interest Guy what do you mean when you say 'the KK feel?'
ta in advance
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 21, 2011 16:27:01 GMT
Definitely many variations on mawashi-geri, for instance kizami- geri and one version I have seen and practised referred to as "cutting kick" where the shin and instep are utilised, the Japanese for this technique escapes me at present.
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Post by guyakuzuki on Feb 21, 2011 16:46:53 GMT
just out of interest Guy what do you mean when you say 'the KK feel?' ta in advance Steve ,it was "Bert" who mentioned the KK feel" not me(unless Alzheimer is kicking in already ) The only KK feel I had was when one of the black belt lassies kicked me in the head and I saw stars blinking everywhere the first time I trained there....*a very lucky shot by the way*
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 21, 2011 16:50:59 GMT
have heard it named in various ways Jim - Kubi Mawashi Geri for example but more descriptive is ashi Bo Mawashi Geri - meaning to use the leg (ashi) like a staff (bo) as in Ashi Bo Kake Uke! seen in many Kata! PS. folks Jim does some great stuff on Kata implications - pick his brains
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Post by redbudo on Feb 22, 2011 21:49:20 GMT
In Japan we pivoted with the kick. And we took the inside line rather than opening up our legs.
Almost never used it to initiate from the back leg. Only as a finisher. Or, we would do a front-leg mawashi; kind of like a lead-hand jab with a follow finisher.
On the other hand- one of my Muay Thai acquaintances, Surachai Sirisute would do a wide swinging mawashi and strike with his foreleg. The heavy bag would fold in the center where he hit it. I've never ever seen a bag hit so hard.
Cheers and Greetings from Reno Nevada
Chuck
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 22, 2011 23:42:32 GMT
I agree chuck - a dear friend of mine is a very experienced Muay Thai Instructor - he kicks like a mule and even if you hold a heavy pad for him you can't do it for long the power generating through the Pad is awesome. He is known all over York as Mad Andy but when he comes to stay my kids adore him he is such a nice bloke.
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