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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 26, 2011 10:50:21 GMT
Do you train the whole gamut of Shotokan techniques or have you certain ones you train constantly ? I am thinking more for self-protection purposes here, for instance shuto, gyaku-tsuki would be a favourite. does keeping it simple mean less of a skill level ?
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Post by redbudo on Feb 26, 2011 13:55:24 GMT
Great, great question Jim.
I don't really have an answer and I do think about it all the time.
Personally, I tend towards the keep it simple end of the continuum. But a better question might be - are you a fighter or a martial artist?
Jeff Cooper once said to fear the man who has only one handgun because he knows how to use it.
Burt Lancaster once played an old, tired sheriff challenged by a young wannabe gunfighter who was super fast, etc. Burt Lancaster advised him to back off. He might have been faster, etc but he (Lancaster) was a killer and he would certainly kill the upstart if put to the test.
In Japan, we were single-mindedly trained for competition so that our arsenal, technique-wise, was narrow and limited. But we honed those techniques very well. I learned more techniques from Mr. Nishiyama in 2 weeks, because he had very different ideas.
Aleksei taught me the value of simple, big bang movements in the gym rather than wasting time on single-joint isolation. He worked as a bouncer when he came to the states so he had no combat skills other than his contest grappling. He sent lots of people to the hospital. Pisarenko was once assaulted by 3 muggers; he sent them all to the hospital with critical injuries; and he had no defense training; he was an Olympic lifter.
Paul Herman, a decathlete, once helped a woman who had been mugged. He sprinted up a hill after the bad guy and back-handed the guy as he passed him going up the hill. The guy was knocked over backwards in a complete somersault. Herman was once challenged by his platoon sergeant in the Army that - if he could hit a target with a grenade throw he would be excused from a 10-mile march. Nobody had even thrown the distance of that target let alone hit it. Paul Herman blew it to smithereens.
Personally, I have never thought of karate as self defense. I just liked it. Practiced right, of course, it equips you superbly for defense. But I would concern myself with physical attributes which support karate training rather than the other way around. If defense is your primary concern, then I would be looking at something with a faster learning curve.
I say, keep it simple; but, whatever you do-do it well.
Opinion is divided; including in my own mind. So, at this moment, this is mine.
Chuck
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Post by kensei on Feb 26, 2011 15:18:57 GMT
To be frank, I train in a lot of different areas, but I do tend towards Gyaku Zuki and Mae Geri alot more than not. I tend to train in all kinds of techniques but the few times I used them in tournaments found that my training in front kick and rev. punch were more practical. On the street and in the bar, yah, forget it...Its what ever happens next you learn to react fast and as accuratly as you can...which often is not that accurate. When you do pull off a perfect reverse punch or such in a real fight...DONT SIT THEIR AMAZED!!!!!! Keep going LOL!!!!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 26, 2011 15:54:40 GMT
Kazami mae geri, kazami tsuki, gyaku tsuki, mae geri & both yori ashi shifting & tsugi ashi shifting. Also nagashi uke.. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 26, 2011 18:50:56 GMT
It is down to a personal decision James. If you want SD skills quickly Karate is NOT the way to follow. better studying MMA and hone a few techniques and strategies.
If you want something that will be an enjoyable and worthwhile pursuit that eventually will give you SD skills with a wider and more precisely honed arsenal of techniques and strategies then a FULL study of Shotokan Karate will provide that.
Working the Doors as a 5'7'' 19 year old Shodan made me realise very quickly I had to change my approach to Karate training. By studying the whole arsenal I did the work for 15 years and also did 20 yrs working daily with some very violent mentally ill clients.
there is no simple answer James - the secondary elements involved in SD are so huge and complex there simply isn't a simple answer!.
Good post though James - very thought provoking.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 26, 2011 18:53:58 GMT
Bruce Lee said I do not fear the man who has done 10,000 kicks once, I fear the man who has done one kick 10,000 times! Discuss, lol
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Post by kensei on Feb 26, 2011 19:06:36 GMT
It is down to a personal decision James. If you want SD skills quickly Karate is NOT the way to follow. better studying MMA and hone a few techniques and strategies. Respectfully, I have to point out that you just said you should not by focusing on on a single style, but you should take up a multi skill training style....to study a few components of that multi system style" Thats like saying you need stop just running, study all the track and feild events, but focus on running I think that we HAVE the right tools in Karate but we need to train a bit differently, forget about just doing sport Karate, and irony not lost on me seeing as for years we were with a organization that taught sport Karate to everyone....not just those that want to do sport Karate! Working the Doors as a 5'7'' 19 year old Shodan made me realise very quickly I had to change my approach to Karate training. By studying the whole arsenal I did the work for 15 years and also did 20 yrs working daily with some very violent mentally ill clients. As you know that was exactly the reason I changed my thinking, it took me a while as I learned quickly that fighting in the bar was VERY different than fighting in the club! But it took me almost 20 years to find a way to train to be better at both! Karate training can be everything, but strangely it took me going to Aikido and Judo along with now working in BJJ to figure out that their are other areas to work on...and my education helped me conceptualize what I was seeing...and get it out to others I work with. As for favorite Waza to work on for training, I still say working Gyaku zuki and Mae Geri help you work the whole body. If you have a bad Mae Geri the rest of your kicks will be weak as well...normally. If you can not master the body dynamics of Gyaku zuki you will have issues with other arm attacks. Just my thinking however.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 26, 2011 19:35:49 GMT
Sorry James - I don't understand your first point can you enlighten me - i may have worded my point poorly but i don't get your point. if you explain a little clearer Ill try and respond better - sorry mate
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Post by kensei on Feb 26, 2011 19:39:02 GMT
Sorry James - I don't understand your first point can you enlighten me - i may have worded my point poorly but i don't get your point. if you explain a little clearer Ill try and respond better - sorry mate sorry steve, probably my issue....what I meant to say was you stated that if you wanted to learn self defense you need to take up MMA but focus on just a few techniques...why not just do Karate and focus on a few techniques?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 26, 2011 20:29:58 GMT
I am gradually coming to the opinion personally that Kata reinforce the message that sticking to a few core principles and techniques is a good self-protection strategy. That is not to say that the kata are repetitive or that they all contain the same techniques ( although there are recurring techniques which were obviously considered important ) however they encapsulate a combative method and that you can choose one of those which suits you best. Within those combative methods are just a few core techniques and drilling of those alone constitute a comprehensive strategy. This is not to say keeping it simple does not require a high skill level, merely that those moves can become instinctive for most given situations if drilled to a high level of skill. MMA is no different, the skill level needs to be just as high and anyhow suffers from the same restrictions as competitive karate , RULES ! It is not a good strategy to focus on just a few techniques when training generally but for self-protection KISS, Keep it simple stupid !
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 26, 2011 20:43:26 GMT
Sorry James - I don't understand your first point can you enlighten me - i may have worded my point poorly but i don't get your point. if you explain a little clearer Ill try and respond better - sorry mate sorry steve, probably my issue....what I meant to say was you stated that if you wanted to learn self defense you need to take up MMA but focus on just a few techniques...why not just do Karate and focus on a few techniques? actually James (but i coulda been clearer - sorry) what i actually said was 'If you want SD quickly' and i used MMA as en example. Muay thai is another think on it. - I have a dear friend whom is a very experienced Muay Thai Instructor. If we had twins of same intelligence and physical ability and one studied with him 3 times a week for a year and tuther studied Karate 3 times a week for a yr I know that the Muay Thai lad would be better equipped at SD after that year than the Karate lad. But Karate offers many other things than just SD and IF studied fully for a long time it is also a very good SD art - I know this from very personal experience. It just isn't fast at instilling SD skills. It could be quicker if everyone dumped the limited syllabus that most follow and studied it fully instead. Hope that is clearer
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Post by kensei on Feb 26, 2011 21:59:32 GMT
So much clearer! This kind of reminds me of my on Nakayama Sensei Story. When he came up to winnipeg I was reading a magazine (Inside Karate) and I happened to look at a picture of a Tai Chi guy....I said something like "Thats a joke" and he came over, put his hands through his hair and said "ah, yes....Karate men are strong, tough and fast"...to which I smiled with pride...then he pointed at the picture of the Tai chi guy and said "but they are supermen!"....never forget that! and I did not!!
Muay Thai can be a quick fix and a great sport to get into and after a year, yah they end up being more able to defend themselves, but in the long run the Karate guy is going to learn a bit deeper and probably have much more tools to play with.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 26, 2011 23:40:06 GMT
fazackerly what i meant to say!
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Post by shinzan on Feb 27, 2011 9:51:24 GMT
Studies and research relating to human cognative ability have resulted in a theory called 'chuncking theory'. The way I interpret thie ttheory is for instance the human brain can only act efficiently on 5 different thoughts/actions at one time (cue women and multi-tasking jokes) obviously we have to discount involantery actions. take a word if we read the word one letter at a time the book takes a long time to read. If we are able to 'chunk' paragraphs the information fllows smoother and the book is finished quicker. When learning mae geri if we have to think our way through the mechanics of the kick it takes a long time. Eventually we 'chunk' all of the mechanics then concentrate on the inplications. Over time if we combine the kick and implications our mind is free to deal with other factors at the same time. This is a really valuable concept.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 27, 2011 11:36:59 GMT
Studies and research relating to human cognative ability have resulted in a theory called 'chuncking theory'. The way I interpret thie ttheory is for instance the human brain can only act efficiently on 5 different thoughts/actions at one time (cue women and multi-tasking jokes) obviously we have to discount involantery actions. take a word if we read the word one letter at a time the book takes a long time to read. If we are able to 'chunk' paragraphs the information fllows smoother and the book is finished quicker. When learning mae geri if we have to think our way through the mechanics of the kick it takes a long time. Eventually we 'chunk' all of the mechanics then concentrate on the inplications. Over time if we combine the kick and implications our mind is free to deal with other factors at the same time. This is a really valuable concept. The above is unarguably true! We all know that given too many choices, especially choices we are unsure of ( read unskilled if you wish ) we become what the American military refer to as cluster-f@#%d ! The reason that Tai boxing or even western boxing is more instantly applicable is less to focus on or practice and the core principles are drilled continuously. I would not argue for ditching any of the huge arsenal of Shotokan techniques but we need to be clear what we are training for. I also love the idea that Karate is a life-long study so not advocating change or running down the study of karate. Just think its an important distinction and one that kata study reinforces.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 27, 2011 14:14:32 GMT
speaking from a viewpoint of having to actually deal with real violence and be ready to deal with it rather than theorise about it - as part of my employment over a period of 3 decades - I think several very important points are being missed here. the first and most important FACT is that no MA/CPP/Military or other system will give you all the answers. Individuals will, quite naturally, have differeing levels of competance gained NO MATTER how diligently they train and no matter what the system is. If your aim is purely SD abilities alone and gained quickly then Karate is not what you require and despite the fact that some may not like me to say that it is simply the truth BUT it is not a criticism of karate just a recognition of the reality and the fact that Karate, due to various other aims for its practitioners does not even place SD abilities as its ultimate aim. However, If you desire SD abilities to be an aspect of your gains from karate study then i absolutely assure you that this is not only possible but actually achievable to a level in excess of the 'quicker fix' other approaches but it will take time and diligent study. again, from experience I can advise you all that the 'study a few techniques only' to gain SD skills is not only IMHO wrong it is actually counterproductive to you SD aims. real violence is massively unpredictable and i assure you that 'a limited arsenal' is far from what you need. Now do not misunderstand me - there is scientifically pronion evidence that attempting to recall a multitude of techniques in the 'thought process constricted' heat of a real violent encounter is likely to result in defeat. But herein lies the crux of the matter and i respectfully ask you to reread my taisabaki article where i discuss what is and what is not 'repeated and regular' study and why it is so important. If you train correctly you will be astonished how - in the heat of battle - you will adapt and react to a situation and later be even surprised at how you reacted and used a succesful technique that even with time to ponder the situation you possible wouldn't have thought of. This is the manifestation of long dilligent study processes becoming fruitful and if your training arsenal is wide enough and studied correctly you will be pleased at how the synergistic process of correct training will come together and those long hours of training will bear fruit!. Also, and some may not like what i am going to say here - if you are practising the normally seen grading and competition syllabus based array of techniques you are already studying a depleted arsenal both in technique, distancing and strategy anyway so to make further 'cuts' is IMHO not a wise decision. of particular importance is the fact that you will only be studying a Karate that is Mid and Long range orientated and this is therefore, as a matter of course, disallowing the use of many very effective techniques and strategies that are only really applicable at close and very close range. also, with total respect to the writer, in all my years of dealing with violence and in that time being involved in or witness to , thousands of real events - i have never once scene a classical karate 'reverse punch' (perfect or otherwise) used but this does not mean I claim that classical karate techniques and postures should be abandoned (but my reasoning on that takes a chapter in a book to fully explain ) violence is such a complex and unpredicteble phenomina it is unwise in my experience, to believe you can cover it by the study of only a few finely honed techniques. Karate WILL give you many things, over time and with the correct approach, one of them being an ever developing SD ability BUT it will take time and a broad study for this SD ability to be versatile enough to give you a better chance - and that is all it can do - give you a better chance it cannot offer guarantees.
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Post by redbudo on Feb 27, 2011 18:13:42 GMT
Jeeez! This is a really sophisticated group! I will certainly have to watch how I dot the -i's-.
The problem for a newbie like me is that I don't know who I am speaking to. I just respond -straight out- to the question in front taking it totally at face value. Wow.
Bert!
Chunking, David? I like it. Listening to the music without getting caught up in the notes. Exactly right.
Simplicity. My response to the original post was because I have no faith in this or that smart-guy technique or style to be of any help. That's why in all of the examples I used everyone had superior physical attributes rather than any highly honed fighting technique. They also shared a certain quality of ruthlessness which was part of the focus they needed in whatever physical discipline they came from.
I didn't say that training karate is not useful. I said that I have little faith in any secular karate technique. But, karate derived attributes are a different matter. Situational awareness, focus, balance, delivery of power to a target. Superb.
The problem is that any real-world confrontation is likely to be at a distance much closer than what is comfortable to us. A simple jab might serve.
Ruthlessness. Musashi spoke about pointing the tip of the sword at the opponent's face and keeping it pointed there. He would take every opportunity to thrust that sword right into the face. My uncle, Rockie (his real name) paid a visit to someone who had cheated his son, my cousin, out of some money and he went to get that money back.
Uncle Rockie was middle aged and was about 5-feet tall. Very unintimidating. The guy he met was younger, a foot taller, and a 100 pounds heavier. He looked like he wanted to fight.
Uncle Rockie quietly told him that; though the guy could probably beat him (Rockie) up pretty handily, Uncle Rockie would put every effort into his mind and body to poke out the guy's left eye.
He came home with the $. Ruthlessness.
Ray Dalke would tell the story about how he was enjoying some pleasant company with an attractive lady, and that when he opened the front door to leave, the door frame was filled with the large mass of the lady's truck driver husband.
The truck driver had no skills but he was big. And strong. The battle raged in the living room smashing just about every piece of furniture and Ray had his hands filled just to survive. The battle raged out into the front yard. I don't remember how it ended but I think you can see the point.
Now, if the question is - what karate techniques I would practice to be most useful where there are rules? Well, then the answer would be different. But still, the simple is best mantra prevails.
Any fair to middlin 4th kyu student of today knows more than I ever learned as a dan rank in Japan. His quiver will have many more arrows than I ever had.
But it always comes down to execution.
It's very simple and elementary to shift forward and kizami. Or, shift forward and kizami followed by a reverse punch. Or, a kizami front-kick, reverse-punch. Every beginning student gets this stuff very early and; truly, you don't need much else.
Get good at this and you build the confidence so that you can hold your own while you are learning something more demanding.
Look at early videos of Yahara in matches. Very often he would throw jabs. Hard to get a point that way but he continued to do it. Looked kind of funny sometimes but he had his reasons. Then he would let loose with a halacious reverse or lunge punch. It was all pretty elemental. Simple.
Kata teach us transitional footwork between the moves. That's why we practice them. An advance kata like Kankusho might be long but all of the elements are accessible if we practice the heians. Very simple.
Now try something hard. Develop a big movement without any preliminary set-up.
For a moment, forget about a shift/kezami/reverse punch combination. Or a kick or sweep then punch combination.
Just do a lunge punch with NO preliminary step, shuffle, shift, sweep or anything else. Like Mikami. Or Frank Smith. It takes tremendous strength; particularly in the hamstrings and hip extensors. Like a vertical jump from a dead stop. Should you ever attempt to sweep Frank Smith's front leg, he would consider you as the one who was out of balance and then he would plant and drive in a reverse punch.
So, keep it simple. Do the combinations to keep you alive while you're learning how to spar, but begin to develop some other physical attributes which enable you to begin to develop certain timing ideas - Sen.
Simple; but, execution, execution, execution.
Same subject & point but leave karate aside.
The head of the Finance Studies at Ole Miss university was teaching a class I attended on discounted cash flow/time value of money and he said something that woke me up. In any study where you felt overwhelmed; pick one small part of the total canon and totally master it.
Conjugate german verbs; music; factor equations in your head. You can't dribble or pass very well - so, practice 3-point hoop shots until you can do them upside down in your sleep. Kizami. Reverse punch. The rest then comes.
Chuck
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 27, 2011 20:22:54 GMT
Yes Chuck!!!! This is why I said; kizami geri, kizami tsuki, gyaku tsuki & mae geri, along with yori ashi & tsugi ashi. Much like some over emphasize the hand & foot techniques while doing kata & aren`t realizing that what is most important is how you use your body. By using the simple skills that this combination of shifting ,kicking, punching , shifting punching & kicking. You have almost everything your body needs to know for self defense. Closing the gap to get inside, following through as your opponent moves, rotation, compression/ expansion, etc.. Once your body moves, action without thought, it is easier to switch to whatever hand & foot techniques the situation then calls for. Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 27, 2011 23:31:51 GMT
Yes Chuck!!!! This is why I said; kizami geri, kizami tsuki, gyaku tsuki & mae geri, along with yori ashi & tsugi ashi. Much like some over emphasize the hand & foot techniques while doing kata & aren`t realizing that what is most important is how you use your body. By using the simple skills that this combination of shifting ,kicking, punching , shifting punching & kicking. You have almost everything your body needs to know for self defense. Closing the gap to get inside, following through as your opponent moves, rotation, compression/ expansion, etc.. Once your body moves, action without thought, it is easier to switch to whatever hand & foot techniques the situation then calls for. Osu Paul B Well it was bound to happen sooner or later but for the first time Paul I am going to have to substantially disagree with you. But before I do I wish to record (and you know it from our private conversations) that I respect you and your Karate and understand the logistics and expense constantly involved in you accessing outside instruction. you may find what I write to be hard to swallow but it is sent in a genuine attempt to assist you and others whom visit here. and also here I am answering both you and my understanding of what Chuck is trying to state. Paul - To make the claims you do (and this is not a criticism but how it appears) makes you sound like many Instructors who are long trained but actually have little or No real and sustained experience of true violent pavement arena violent encounters. They draw upon a limited arsenal syllabus and theorise on 'what may happen in a fight or violent attack' and come up with solutions and ideas that are not in line with the reality of what normally happens. You will see this again and again and again so do not feel i am trying to separate you out = NO I am just saying what I think based upon more than a little experience of having to get other Karateka to see the light and take a new approach. I am responding to your claim as presented in the hope you will reanylise what you currently believe to be a suitable training 'package' for skill in SD. Firstly - look closely at your claim - This is why I said; kizami geri, kizami tsuki, gyaku tsuki & mae geri, along with yori ashi & tsugi ashi. Much like some over emphasize the hand & foot techniques while doing kata & aren`t realizing that what is most important is how you use your body. By using the simple skills that this combination of shifting ,kicking, punching , shifting punching & kicking. You have almost everything your body needs to know for self defense. I am sorry but to claim that you are gonna have to really think it through and if you do I am hopeful you will see how wrong you are in suggesting this is 'almost everything' your 'body' needs to know for SD. now - look at your list Kizami Tsuki, Kizami Geri, Gyaku Tsuki! Well firstly, to execute any of these three you must have adopted a stance because they all require that base to be launched from. also they (and your other choice: mae Geri) are all mid and long range techniques (more on range below) . Please don't nit-pic on this one - it is a fact and coming back with 'Oh I meant a small stance or they can be used at close quarter range (no they can't) or some other reasoning' is a change in your claim. Well - the reality is that the vast majority of real violent encounters - especially so if it is on you afore you realised or if it goes further than one exchange - get 'up close and personal' very quickly. they 95% of the time DO NOT stand off and spar. they will come in and come in very close and very soon. Now the big problem for many Shotokan Karateka (do to the syllabus many follow ) is that they have no accurate concept of exactly what closequarter really is - they think they do but it becomes clearly evident (even amongst long served Dan Grades) when you give them trully closequarter sparring drills to do and you will see them constantly trying to shift back to mid and longer ranges and feeling very uncomfortable with an opponent in close and staying in close. they like you, have adopted a false sense of 'I will catch them on the way in (a possibility yes but your screwed and have run out of weapons if you stick to your 'package' and don't get them on the way in for one of the 1000's of reasons that may occur. Also - neither of you have anywhere discussed defensive blocking or covering tactics so again your training on the theory that they won't be required because you have 'almost everything your body ( ) requires. You at know point discuss disengagements anywhere, you at no point discuss throws, holds or sweeps No mention of various other very important SD requirements including mental attitude. at no point do you discuss a way to deal with an opponent who is NOT in front of you! you name two basic footwork procedures to be aligned with the techniques listed and seem to be suggesting that it is how you move your body - not the techniques contained - that should be all needed and in fact the core focus of Kata practice. to give you a clue - even if we just discuss strikes to be successful in SD - at no point do you (for example) elbow strikes, forearm strikes, backhand strikes, palm strikes or headbutting ( Empi Waza, wanto uchi, Haishu Uchi, Teisho Uchi and Men Tsuki Waza). well in the many violent situations i have had to deal with I have used various techniques but with no doubt whatsoever in about 90 percent of those where i have had to 'hit' someone it has been one of the '5' that has won the day! Sorry lads but fact and nowhere near your list. What you prescribe may (and I only say may) give you a foundation for competition based sparring but is IMHO NOT a basis for a self arsenal - a component = yes but 'all required' = sorry but no way! I could discuss so much more that has been missed by an act of ommission (possibly not deliberately but more due to lack of access to a different approach and wider syllabus) but that would take pages and you'll read it in the book anyway as yer both won a free copy LOL. Chuck - If i am understanding your long reply correctly I would have to say much of the above would IMHO apply to what you appear to be claiming in terms of SD I hope I haven't upset anyone but this IS life or death stuff and we have to be reality and not pure theory based. Many Kyu grade and junior karateka visit here. If i didn't reply they may consider or assume that i agreed and I think yer may have worked out - I didn't. SO..... Go get angry with me for ten minutes and then cool down - read again and think it through Also to avoid any confusion - I am NOT saying that you can only learn SD Karate from an Instructor whom has wide experience of real life violence. No = not at all but you will be on the wrong track if you are basing that study on your own (violence limited or non) theories alone. Go Explore, read etc
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 28, 2011 1:28:39 GMT
Steve; I just knew that I was going to get this kind of response. 8-)In fact I would be disappointed if it didn`t come. If what I meant was that the punching & the kicking with shifting were all that you needed, then you would be absolutely correct. What I did say & mean was how you use your body. I am a firm believer in the use of knees,elbows, trapping, shin hacks, joint locks/breaks, head butts, shoulder smashes, hip strikes , foot stomps etc.. What I meant by training in the techniques that I mentioned is that you would develop an action with out thought method of driving forward. I totally agree that the techniques themselves are not suited for close range combat. However almost everyday one can easily train in the method I meant to describe. Once you are good at shifting in, closing the gap is not that hard, but we must train the body how to do so. Hense the idea of kazami geri yori ashi, kazami tsuki, tsugi ashi, mae geri. Now lets modify this a bit. Left leg shin hack while sliding forward on the landing, followed right away with a finger jab to the eyes, that hand comming down on the opponents arms while, shifting in tsugi ashi with the rear ( right leg ) the left leg drives knee first into the opponents groin while doing a right elbow ( mawashi empi ) to his head, grab his head pull it slightly forward & do a head butt, keep pulling him forward & use the rear leg for a knee strike to his solar plexus area, land right leg forward, twisting his head to your left, lower your center of gravity, while you are twisting left, throw your hip into him & throw him to the ground, he should be in position for one last knee to the head. None of this could have happened if I didn`t have the skill to drive forward in the first place. Now we are back to training kazami geri, yori ashi, kazami tsuki, tsugi ashi, mae geri. Attack shift, attack, shift,attack. Defensive blocking is attacking the technique. Joint locks are attacking the joints. I totally agree with having to get in close & even closer Steve & trust me I have been there. Maybe not as frequent as someone who works the doors, but I`ve seen & been in a few scraps. I thank you for the reaction, it`s what I was hoping for. It makes people think. O.K., i`m getting good at this feeling, what else can I do with it!!! ;D ;D Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 28, 2011 2:59:49 GMT
I KNEW IT - I BLOODY NEW IT! and I kinda predicted it = Please don't nit-pic on this one - it is a fact and coming back with 'Oh I meant a small stance or they can be used at close quarter range (no they can't) or some other reasoning' is a change in your claim.I honestly laughed out loud at your response because I had expected you to change track but that don't mean i'm letting you of the hook just yet and I'll explain why Paul, please reread your posts and what you are saying - because it don't make sense..... You name four techniques and two fundamental Unsoku processes and claim that by practicing these you will have 'almost everything your body needs to know for self defense'. now you have shifted position - as suspected cos I know you know more than the nonsense( ) you originally posted and just ain't explaining it properly yet! . but your shifted position still IMHO is (lets just say) wrong = cos you seem to be now saying that for SD skill: Practice techniques that are (by your own acceptance) CQ innappropriate..... Quote: 'I totally agree that the techniques themselves are not suited for close range combat.' and you then appear to justify your claim that they will give 'you almost everything needed' because, quote.... 'almost everyday one can easily train in the method I meant to describe' Firstly, the method I think you mean to describe - fluent stepping actions that will allow you to move forward quickly to close a gap (?) is, when limited to only using Yuri Ashi and Sugi ashi stepping, only a limited approach to a limited methodology relating to strategic SD footwork and body movements that is also limited to an assumption that the opponent is in front of you hardly 'almost everything' needed yer dozy wonderful french canuck muppet LOL ;D ;D and further to this - if you are going to develop a process to help students to be able to get in very close very quickly then why oh why have them practice techniques that are mid to long range usage and thus make the whole exercise redundant. Kyu grades can (I absolutely assure you cope with practicing a very wide array of close quarter techniques as easily (if not easier) than they can cope with the four mid range techniques you chose . so go away again for 10 minutes and use all those unkind names you have for me ( ) (don't forget 'the patronising Scots/Irish Bathstered!)and come back reread your posts and think it through before you write the excellent SD advice you have been trying to but had your 'lazy day sunday not thinking it through' (read HUYA!). head on You have taught me and many here a lot Paul so i cannot stand by and let you, unthinkingly, post something that makes you look like yer talking nonsense! Love from Somerset Paulie Babes
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Post by Paul Bedard on Feb 28, 2011 4:25:57 GMT
Oh Steviekins this is going to be fun. ;D O.K. of course I haven`t totally explained everything that I`m thinking in this subject. that will take a while. I`ll take a little time to try & explain what I mean of what I mean, by taking what are fundamental skills & applying them in a real world manner. But I will stay with the concept of what I said that we must find a method of closing the gap in a manner that we are comfortable with. I see so many that just don`t get it. They dart in & dart right back out again. If you can get in & get your opponent reacting instead of acting keep the pressure on him. More to come... Osu Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 28, 2011 6:44:18 GMT
YOU GO CAREFUL THERE PAUL - YER STARTING TO MAKE SENSE! ;D ;D Have yer had a nap or something? LOL!
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Post by redbudo on Feb 28, 2011 14:24:47 GMT
Well, through all of this arcane to-and-fro which I freely admit I'm too thick to follow I've got to repeat that my ONLY point advanced was:
. . that one starts with what one knows and progresses towards what one does not know while keeping in mind what you need for SD vs what you need where there are rules.
Seems simple to me.
Chuck
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Post by Dod Watt on Feb 28, 2011 17:56:37 GMT
Well guys I love the title of this thread, and read all the replies, and I've got to say that there is nothing simplistic about SD.
From my experience, limited may I say, there is two ways at looking at Self Defence, and that is action and reaction.
Action is where we get an insight that trouble is going to breakout, so we get a bit time to assess the situation then plan out how we are going to handle it. We can take control of the situation and use certain techniques in doing so.
Reaction is where we have no notice of any trouble pending or that has developed for example being jumped, therefore you respond without thought. In this situation thinking of what you are going to do can be counteractive and really slow down your response time, therefore maybe putting you in more danger.
The way I see it is, if we train diligently in as much techniques as possible and keep doing so until they become natural, then if we do end up in any of the two situations we will be able to respond accordingly, and hopefully have an advantage.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Feb 28, 2011 19:00:24 GMT
Some very interesting answers here and Steve, I too did a little work on the doors and led a full social life in an area renowned for violent confrontation. I agree wholeheartedly that it is impossible to predict what an aggressor is going to do and difficult at times to apply what we have learned up close. Karate teaches us some coping strategies and gives us a better awareness of our capabilities but there are certain techniques that would never occur to me to use, nor have I ever used them for sd . Knowledge of all the techniques is essential to be a rounded karate-ka but we all have "moves" that suit us personally and I believe it is wrong to ignore those techniques we feel natural about doing in favour of ones we find awkward to execute. So how to address this dichotomy? For me personally I find kata only makes sense at close quarters and have therefore introduced recently two-man drills as well as solo kata. these are all flow drills of a sort and explore the implications if executed at close quarters. Try it, there is a reason there are no jodan mawashi-geri in kata. I also agree Steve that it is not essential to have a seasoned street fighter as a teacher of self-defence but I would be less than confident in anyone who had never been in any form of confrontation whether they won or lost, because if you have not, you have no idea how the body reacts under stress or how things can go pear-shaped very quickly. Self-defence is not simple but if you cannot apply what you know at short distance then you are at a disadvantage straight away. My own take on this is that I try to train equally hard and diligently on all my techniques but when I am training for me alone I have my favourites and it has been helpful in the past.
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Post by fujicolt on Feb 28, 2011 20:41:55 GMT
Well, through all of this arcane to-and-fro which I freely admit I'm too thick to follow I've got to repeat that my ONLY point advanced was: . . that one starts with what one knows and progresses towards what one does not know while keeping in mind what you need for SD vs what you need where there are rules. Seems simple to me. Chuck 'Arcane' a curious choice of words Chuck - on this site I think you'll find everyone to be far from mysterious or secretive - in fact, speaking from a personal perspective, i would say that many here have been particularly helpful, open and very giving of their time and knowledge. They'll argue a point vigorously of course but they do it agreeably and usually with more than a hint of mischeif. also here we have come to understand that the subject we are discussing - Shotokan Karate and related matters - can at times be very difficult to describe or explain in relatively short posts. therefore, we will often ask for further explanation. you said a nice thing in one of your posts about this being a 'sophisticated group' - well there are a lot of very long term served Karateka here PLUS quite a number of Karateka who are newer on their Karate journey but are already very inquisitive and offering a huge amount of food for thought for us all here. However, I have never found them to be arcane and would be extremely interested to hear why you find the to and fro to be so. if anything unclear just ask. you have already shown yourself to be an interested and clearly knowledgable contributor to the group annd I personally would be very uncomfortable to think that you feel that we are excluding you in some way. trust me on this Chuck, just ask if unsure or unclear and I think you'll find them all to be vary helpful.
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Post by genkaimade on Feb 28, 2011 22:13:41 GMT
They'll argue a point vigorously of course but they do it agreeably and usually with more than a hint of mischeif. also here we have come to understand that the subject we are discussing - Shotokan Karate and related matters - can at times be very difficult to describe or explain in relatively short posts. therefore, we will often ask for further explanation. Your usual response of 'we agree to disagree' works perfectly here methinks - it's what allows us to all have an opinion without any kind of moral obligation to automatically agree with someone of a higher rank; in other words, it's what makes this site genuinely useful I think! Just to add my 2c to the discussion: I've thankfully not really been in any street violence thanks to firstly being relatively sensible, and secondly being quite good with avoidance. If we're talking about "street fighting" though, there is no doubt that 99% of the time the fight'll end up very close and personal within 3 seconds or so of the attacker deciding to attack - and 3 seconds after that, everything'll probably be over (please note that I am of course not talking specifics, just what I've come to believe due to admittedly very limited real life experience and stuff that I've read). Thus, I think that neglecting elbows, knees etc in training is absolute suicide, as well as a little boring tbh. It's surprising how effective elbows can be as well. Just to draw on something that happened at Steve's (fujicolt's) summer friendship course last year, we basically spent quite a bit of time with elbows and thai pads. I'm not proud of this at all, but in one of the drills, I dropped my concentration for a minute, and elbowed the pads in the wrong order, and not with much vigour. The person holding them (who was also a Steve if I remember correctly) wasn't ready with the first pad I hit (should've been the second), and it went flying into his face, causing his nose to bleed for a fair bit. As I said, I'm not proud of this at all, but it was kind of a wake up call to me as to how devastating elbows can be, even if they're just flailed about without focus. Alex
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Post by redbudo on Feb 28, 2011 23:14:17 GMT
Jeeez!
Ok, let me get this straight.
I describe something as -arcane- because I, admittedly, am too thick to penetrate the relevance of any of the arguments made when I am really being too polite to mention that all of the competing assertions seem to be very wide of the point and seem to shade rhetorical scoring off with a taint of having emanated from on high by an enlightened clerisy: slings & arrows which fail to advance any understanding of the originally asked question – and you, Steve, ask me what I mean by using a word that denotes mystery and secretiveness when what I really have in mind is -muddy-?
What have I gotten myself into here? Some things are just not fun.
On my side of the discussion, I quite agree with your point. I should have mentioned that it might be useful to have a howitzer.
Respectfully,
Chuck
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Post by fujicolt on Mar 1, 2011 2:23:30 GMT
Jeeez! Ok, let me get this straight. I describe something as -arcane- because I, admittedly, am too thick to penetrate the relevance of any of the arguments made when I am really being too polite to mention that all of the competing assertions seem to be very wide of the point and seem to shade rhetorical scoring off with a taint of having emanated from on high by an enlightened clerisy: slings & arrows which fail to advance any understanding of the originally asked question – and you, Steve, ask me what I mean by using a word that denotes mystery and secretiveness when what I really have in mind is -muddy-? What have I gotten myself into here? Some things are just not fun. On my side of the discussion, I quite agree with your point. I should have mentioned that it might be useful to have a howitzer. Respectfully, Chuck hey Chuck - calm down man and put yer toys back in the pram ;D If you go and re-read my post that has had you throwing yer toys outa the pram you will actually see that I was trying to explain a few things to you to help you as a contributor to the discussion and debate here. A teenage Kyu Grade seemed to grasp that but you clearly chose to see it differently. If you look again you will see that I was actually trying to reassure you that in my experience here no one has been arcane and in fact I have learnt a great deal from them all both high ranked and long experienced and newly into karate and finding their feet. i tried to explain how it works and that although we may vigorously argue a point we have come to adopt a policy (not demanded just desired by the kind of people whom have posted here since the sites inception) of agree to disagree agreeably. I spoke well of you and advised you that if unsure just ask. i pointed out that we all realise that describing some aspects of the core subject (Shotokan Karate) can be difficult to discuss in the desired clarity in short fastly typed posts. I also adviced you that there is an oft rising 'mischief' amonst the members as i hope you saw between Paul Bedard and I in our recent exchange. Paul is a person I have come to admire immensely not only from exchanges here but private discussions elsewhere with him and members of his lovely family and i was concerned that you may have misunderstood the underlying mischievousness in our exchange that is just fun and based on mutual respect. at no point was I rude to you. i merely asked a question about your use of the word arcane and then proceed to try and give you information that i genuinely hoped would be helpful to you. Yet you come back with a series of thinly vieled personal insults and a declaration that you maybe should have been less covert and should have been clearer and made it known that instead of being arcane our exchanges were Muddy and not constructive to your understanding and off the point of the original question. Well, let me get something straight if i may - there are karateka of various grades age and experience involved in this thread many whom i know quite well via either substantial interaction here and elsewhere for a number of years or via actual direct contact in Dojo and other situations over everything from a few years to several decades. The person whom launched this thread, Jim luke, recently honoured me by again inviting me to his Dojo to hold a course for his fine club members and to stay at his home with his lovely familyJim and I actualloy co Instructed on the course (a mistake on my part because i was hissed off at miswsing being able to join in Jim's fascinating Bunkai class for the Seniors whilst I took the juniors. I spent the time envious that I couldn't be at the other end of the Dojo joining in with Jim's class. Now, i tell you this so you can go reread that here we are able to be friends AND completely disagree. You'll notice that i have not agreed with Jim on all matters here and feel no need to because I know he is a man whom will be fine with that and in fact may well invite it to spark his thinking and quest for knowledge and to affirm other positions and conclusions he has made. we also have two Kyu grades here, Shinzan and geinkemade, whom i know personally, have trained with and admire immensely for their attitude and insight that I have learnt a great deal from despite being considerably older and more Karate experienced. You'll also notice Dod and Kensei - one i have known for several decades and is a dear friend and the other whom i have communicated with in various sites and privately for a few years but both I admire immensely. Now with all above I have understood their posts, in this thread and elsewhere, with no problem and they appear to understand mine. where we haven't we have simply asked each other for clarification - you'll see it if you look. therefore, before you go accusing people of being Muddy or off the mark with posts I strongly reccomend you go reread your own long and rambling posts that have given us everything from Desert Storm to your Japan experiences to the fact that you no longer train in Shotokan and have not done so for a very long time but how you have experience with a huge array of the famous in America to compensate. now apart from their rambling content I have actually found them interesting and would not dream of suggesting they were trying to confirm your vast and varied experience, intellect and research abilities In essence SIr afore you have a tantrum and indicate muddiness, an inability to stay on mark with the original point of the thread and rhetorical scoring off by a superior clerisy - I strongly suggest 'people in glass houses shouldn't.... etc.' Clam down join in and enjoy yourself Chuck but be aware that if your do throw anything yer just might find a response you don't like coming back. Be well Chuck - I think you could fit right in here if you read more carefully and ask if you not sure. I was genuinely trying to help you yer dozy sod! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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