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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 14, 2011 10:53:59 GMT
How many times as martial artists have you heard the phrase "muscle memory " as a justification for endless repetition or drilling of technique? Thinking about it logically we know muscle has no memory as it lacks brain cells. So what are we creating by constant practice ? Why do we all at some point use this phrase and what are we trying to communicate to our students by using this misnomer?
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Post by grunners4 on Jul 14, 2011 11:33:16 GMT
James are you concerned about the wording or the concept? I am a firm believer in the body follows where the mind goes, so it does start with the brain. But if you think of stiff muscles after a long layoff, they are not 'used' to the movement being practiced. This is a physical reaction not a neurological action. The practice of repetition allows for more fluidity just like the grease in a car engine.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 14, 2011 12:02:17 GMT
I was merely opening it up for debate, not expressing concern Andrew, however my take is a little at odds with yours. body movement is a neurological process and when we learn something new we start to carve new pathways in the brain. If we input rubbish or bad training methods then these pathways can become ingrained and difficult to "unlearn". The aim would be to learn the movements to the point of unconscious thought ( as conscious thought is too slow a process) Much of what we do on a daily basis is unconscious thought and this is the result of neural pathways being ingrained. Stiff muscles, as I understand it are the result of a build up of lactic acid and would occur if you were to do the same exercise that your muscles were used to but say with a heavier load or over an extended period of time. So lactic acid build up is related to work not "memory" or neural pathways or reflex. Surely if we were dealing with muscle memory,. then there would be a specific time to ingrain that memory but as we know there are ways to ingrain the movement quicker than others, for example an understanding of the reason for the movement and a detailed deconstruction of the mechanics is known to help with the learning process. This has to be completley cognitive so I would say it begins and ends with the brain. The driver not the car.
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Post by kensei on Jul 14, 2011 12:53:32 GMT
I think it depends on how you understand the term "Muscle Memory" I mean if you actually think that the muscle has a way of storing information then you are wrong, but if you are thinking that by repeating movements that your brain creates a kind of reflex then you are more on track with that thinking.
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Post by grunners4 on Jul 14, 2011 14:18:36 GMT
Again James, what you said is what I meant to say With body movement and specifically rehabilitation you often hear people say "I need to learn to walk again", its the neural flow of info from brain to muscle that needs to be reconnected. The muscle itself doesn't store the info otherwise there would be no need for rehab beyond building up the muscle to its previous ability. I think it depends on how you understand the term "Muscle Memory" I mean if you actually think that the muscle has a way of storing information then you are wrong, but if you are thinking that by repeating movements that your brain creates a kind of reflex then you are more on track with that thinking. Now to be really argumentative, look at a household lizard that loses its tail. The tail continues to move even though disconnected from the brain...is the reflexive action stored in the muscle tissue then? Not a biologist by any means! So correct me ;D
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Post by kensei on Jul 15, 2011 1:37:30 GMT
Now to be really argumentative, look at a household lizard that loses its tail. The tail continues to move even though disconnected from the brain...is the reflexive action stored in the muscle tissue then? Not a biologist by any means! So correct me ;D Not really, the reflex is caused by a chemo-electric response in the nervous system that is in their nerves, Muscles DONT have memory....its in the nerves and it is left over impulses caused by chemical response...not by the memory of the muscle...which can not store information, its a reactive tissue that simply contracts and relaxes. The best part of uni and college studies were the disections of animal and human! It was great fun playing with things like the nerves in a leg...and I even got to play the demo dummy once or tice...(SHUT UP STEVE...dont swing at the easy ones buddy).
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Post by fujicolt on Jul 15, 2011 2:22:49 GMT
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Post by superjock on Jul 15, 2011 3:49:59 GMT
Autonomic nervous system
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Post by superjock on Jul 15, 2011 4:30:13 GMT
Autonomic nervous system is fight or flight, pain withdrawal reflex, gag reflex, flinch reflex etc. In my opinion you need to discover what your 'natural' reflex reaction to......lets say an attack to the head. Then find a block or a technique in kata (or elsewhere) and practise it in order that it becomes habit or as we say it's ingrained into your sub-concious. Training the sub-concious is a big part of professional sports training these days. As much time is spent on heady subjects like visualisation and positive self talk. I put this to the test a couple of years ago when after yet another redundancy I gave up my computer and had to learn to handle logs with a digger. When I first started I was all over the place and there was gaps between the logs = not good. I rotated myself (forgot to mention I was once the boss there) so that I was 2 hours on and 2 hours off. In the off time I watched the experienced guys technique and visualised the hand control movements in order to get there. Cut a long story short I got up to speed 10 logs per minute within 3 days, normally takes 4 weeks. It was however mentally exhausting as I was thinking every control. I took about 6 weeks doing half shifts (5 hours) to be able to do the job without concious thought. There was times on this night shift that I was falling asleep between picking up the log......turning it and putting it onto a drive chain. More like unconscious thought ;D ;D
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Post by nathanso on Jul 15, 2011 5:55:12 GMT
Autonomic nervous system is fight or flight, pain withdrawal reflex, gag reflex, flinch reflex etc. You've mixed up a couple different things. The sympathetic nervous system, one of the 2 (or 3, depending on how you count) branches of the ANS, does indeed mediate the fight or flight response. Pain withdrawal is a spinal reflex. The sensory nerve synapses with another neuron in the spinal cord, which in turn tells the motor nerve to contract the muscle and thus move the limb. In general, what is sometimes called the somatic nervous system, that is motor neurons, control skeletal muscle contraction. It is distinct from the ANS. There are reflexes in the autonomic nervous system, but they mostly regulate heart rate and blood pressure in response to changes in BP and other inputs. As for muscle memory, you can get a pretty good layman's explanation if you look up "muscle learning" and also "motor skill' on Wikipedia. Note that these motor patterns of necessity involve the brain.
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Post by superjock on Jul 15, 2011 6:15:28 GMT
Autonomic nervous system is fight or flight, pain withdrawal reflex, gag reflex, flinch reflex etc. You've mixed up a couple different things. The sympathetic nervous system, one of the 2 (or 3, depending on how you count) branches of the ANS, does indeed mediate the fight or flight response. Pain withdrawal is a spinal reflex. The sensory nerve synapses with another neuron in the spinal cord, which in turn tells the motor nerve to contract the muscle and thus move the limb. In general, what is sometimes called the somatic nervous system, that is motor neurons, control skeletal muscle contraction. It is distinct from the ANS. There are reflexes in the autonomic nervous system, but they mostly regulate heart rate and blood pressure in response to changes in BP and other inputs. As for muscle memory, you can get a pretty good layman's explanation if you look up "muscle learning" and also "motor skill' on Wikipedia. Note that these motor patterns of necessity involve the brain. I bow to your superior intelligence
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Post by jimlukelkc on Jul 15, 2011 11:46:35 GMT
And there you go! Thanks Neil!
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Post by kensei on Jul 15, 2011 14:10:48 GMT
Ah, but even ANS reflexes are not in the muscle! thus...No such thing as Muscle memory...again, how litteral are we being here? Spinal reflexes, reflexes in the lower brain that have nothing to do with though (such as Steve was aiming at) and even Golgi Tendon reflex do not occur in muscle...they cause the relfex in the muscles but they dont HAPPEN in the muscle...ergo you can not have "Muscle Memory" you can however have reflexive responses and other such things.....Nerology is a HUGE area of study that I have dipped my feet in...but unless you are serious about it....its a dark and confusing place!
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Post by nathanso on Jul 15, 2011 18:11:15 GMT
I bow to your superior intelligence Don't confuse knowledge with intelligence.
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Post by stevenm on Jul 29, 2011 21:09:42 GMT
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 2, 2011 5:23:47 GMT
Nice one Steve - tis great that you are joining in and bringing new material and info to the OSS Forum = much appreciated!
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Post by superjock on Aug 2, 2011 9:46:45 GMT
''expert-induced amnesia''...........that's me..........what were we talking about again Great link Stevem
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Post by stevenm on Aug 2, 2011 20:40:23 GMT
Sort of explains why we grow extra fingers and thumbs when turning off that blaring burglar alarm!
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 2, 2011 21:23:49 GMT
wouldn't claim to know what you mean or allude to Sir! and thats this thread spent then LOL!
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