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Post by fujicolt on Aug 2, 2011 14:26:02 GMT
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Post by kensei on Aug 3, 2011 1:09:46 GMT
The thing with Kyokushin is that I have tossed a few guys out of the bar that had trained in this knock down style, they are strong but have no hand techniques and once you get in close...nothing. The think is, in their element they are killer, out of their element...not so much. But the sad part is...they are not alone!
Very impressive video however.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 3, 2011 2:09:21 GMT
exactly why I have the opinion stated above about their Kumite rules!
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 3, 2011 14:12:15 GMT
The thing with Kyokushin is that I have tossed a few guys out of the bar that had trained in this knock down style, they are strong but have no hand techniques and once you get in close...nothing. The think is, in their element they are killer, out of their element...not so much. But the sad part is...they are not alone! Very impressive video however. sorry with all due respect Kensei but I don't totally agree.You can't say a style is bad cos you tossed a few guys out of a bar who by accident practiced this style .I know shotokan practitioners who couldn't kick a hole in a paper bag and who are sh*te at close in fighting too...does that make shotokan a bad style ?? My gym teacher was a kyokushin fighter from the early days ,a small bloke but I saw him kick and punch the lights out of a couple of nasty big blokes once (noone dared to challenge them when they were harassing people).... Personally as a shotokan practitioner I can't even be bothered to go and compete in a shotokan tournament or even go and watch it(I did once and to me that was just a big disappointment)and I prefer to watch the video above to what I saw there(not talking about the old days in shotokan though). Kyokushin practices "jissen kumite" which allows punches to the head too and just like in shotokan there are lessons with an emphasis on goshin jitsu... don't get me wrong :I love shotokan and I'm sure there are people on here who you would love to have by your side if the sh*t hits the fan but I'm 100% sure too there are kyokushin fighters too who you would love to have beside you when you go to war on the street ... I practiced kyokushin and I have a lot of respect for them and that goes the other way around.
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Post by kensei on Aug 3, 2011 18:16:27 GMT
sorry with all due respect Kensei but I don't totally agree.You can't say a style is bad cos you tossed a few guys out of a bar who by accident practiced this style .I know shotokan practitioners who couldn't kick a hole in a paper bag and who are sh*te at close in fighting too...does that make shotokan a bad style ?? Don't appologize, I respect your point of view as well, I am talking about my experience with the style. As I always say it is not the style that makes the person tough, but the person! The point I was going to make and failed horribly (thanks for calling me on it...only helps me in the long run) is that when you select a style that hard wires you NOT to do some thing that may help you in the long run, well you are taking part of your tool box and shoving it out the window...and dear god you dont have to tell me that their are many shotokan people that may not be able to use the tools we give them..and some are high ranking black belts! But, the fact that you take a style that eliminates head punching and tries to get you to kick to the head on the streets...not working with a style that gives alot of pluses right off the hop! My gym teacher was a kyokushin fighter from the early days ,a small bloke but I saw him kick and punch the lights out of a couple of nasty big blokes once (noone dared to challenge them when they were harassing people).... The Kyokushin early days were much like the Shotokan Early days. lots of tough guys and the rules for knock down Karate were not really influencing the training yet. The Kyokushin early guys also did alot more leg kicks than they do now and all power. I thnk thta they would have been seen as much like the early JKA guys. And as for your instructor, Good for him. this shows his charactor and it passes my "good guy" meter nicely ;D Personally as a shotokan practitioner I can't even be bothered to go and compete in a shotokan tournament or even go and watch it(I did once and to me that was just a big disappointment)and I prefer to watch the video above to what I saw there(not talking about the old days in shotokan though). at most levels the tournaments are a bit of a joke, and I notice that the "Favorites" of the judges tend to win in Kata and even in Kumite. For me the only ones I watch are the old ones and the higher level competitions. Can not agree more! Kyokushin practices "jissen kumite" which allows punches to the head too and just like in shotokan there are lessons with an emphasis on goshin jitsu... don't get me wrong :I love shotokan and I'm sure there are people on here who you would love to have by your side if the sh*t hits the fan but I'm 100% sure too there are kyokushin fighters too who you would love to have beside you when you go to war on the street ... Not all clubs are doing the Jissen Kumite, the ones I have seen in my area only practice the tournament crap that allows for and pushes head kicks and does not let head punching at all....its basically TKD with a Japanese spin! Its like I said, their are guys from all over whom I would rather have in my corner in a fight than even some of my seniors. However I think that Kyokushin got such a bad rap from its founder being a huckster of sorts (not totally but he took the marketing way to seriously and way to far in some cases). Not all are jokes and TKD...but they are practicing a style that mostly causes the style to be inneffective unless you train at a school that does not allow the tournament only system. I practiced kyokushin and I have a lot of respect for them and that goes the other way around. I have to say that I have only read about Kyokushin guys that are good fighters outside of tournaments and have not ran into any. But that is not to say that they dont exist and I dont believe in them, just that I have not ran into any yet. Its the same thing as Kung fu and some other styles. I have however ran into people that are totally inept in fighting and some that were unbelievable in Shotokan and a few other styles. Its not the style, its the person, and I would have to say that some styles do start people behind the 8 ball as it were...I have only met one guy that did Tai Chi that was a killer in real life. Again, dont worry about appologizing, I totally respect that you had different experiences, its what makes this site so damn good!
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Post by middleton on Aug 3, 2011 21:24:23 GMT
Osu, It has taken a long time for myself to appreciate certain aspects of Kyokushin. Last year I visited the HQ Dojo of Seido Karate (Nakamura Sensei) on 23rd Street in New York City. I was in New York training for a week with Sensei Amos at the WTKO HQ Dojo. I sought out this Dojo because I have long respected Sensei Nakamura's view regarding Karate and Budo. His many book are truly some of my most cherished book's, and I refrence them often. His Dojo is absolutely beautiful inside (Very traditional elements), and his students are well mannered and polite. I have also read the auto-biography of the founder of Enshin Karate (Sensei Ninomiya). I enjoyed reading about his struggle to obtain "victory", and his absolute devotion to reach that goal. Of course I don't agree with everything technically with Kyokushin Kai, but this is mainly due to my own ignorance. Interestingly I don't agree with how many Shotokan practitioners apply their technique. Take care, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca/
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 4, 2011 3:11:32 GMT
for many over 3 decades now I have used a study of aspects of other styles of karate and even other MA's, NOT to make a hybrid system but to help me better explore the full arsenal of techigues strategies etc within my base area of study = the full shotokan system. i am delighted to say that this study has 99% of the time revealed to me that 'WE have that in Shotokan Karate. Sadly thow I also often have to acknowledge many of the criticisms of Shotokan Karate as it is Studied in MOST Dojo. not ALL but Most. the adherence to 'Prescribed Grading Systems' and 'Competition Karate' unfortunately FORCES students to study a very limited and small arsenalled form of Shotokan that is a mere shadow of the true and large arsenal that a wider study can provide. I have been emmensely fortunate to study with wide thinking Instructors whom themselves studied a full and very exciting Shotokan. By sheer good luck this began with my very first Sensei = the wonderful and very technically skilled John Tattum and proceeded with the Likes of Steve Cattle (RIP), Dave Hazard and Frank Cope who i shall forever be endebted to. Due to my work in the security and Violence Management fields I obviously needed a system that WOULD work in real violence events. I think the fact that at 5'7'' and after being involved in literally hundreds of such events but having never been seriously injured or unable to deal with those situation it is fair and reasonable for me to state that a FULL study and evaluation of Shotokan karate WILLl consequentially provide you with a competant and very efficient Martial art. but sadly it also makes you realise that at many dojo and in many organisations Shotokan IS NOT studied fully and is therefore subject to justifiable criticism
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 4, 2011 6:24:15 GMT
sorry with all due respect Kensei but I don't totally agree.You can't say a style is bad cos you tossed a few guys out of a bar who by accident practiced this style .I know shotokan practitioners who couldn't kick a hole in a paper bag and who are sh*te at close in fighting too...does that make shotokan a bad style ?? Don't appologize, I respect your point of view as well, I am talking about my experience with the style. As I always say it is not the style that makes the person tough, but the person! The point I was going to make and failed horribly (thanks for calling me on it...only helps me in the long run) is that when you select a style that hard wires you NOT to do some thing that may help you in the long run, well you are taking part of your tool box and shoving it out the window...and dear god you dont have to tell me that their are many shotokan people that may not be able to use the tools we give them..and some are high ranking black belts! But, the fact that you take a style that eliminates head punching and tries to get you to kick to the head on the streets...not working with a style that gives alot of pluses right off the hop! The Kyokushin early days were much like the Shotokan Early days. lots of tough guys and the rules for knock down Karate were not really influencing the training yet. The Kyokushin early guys also did alot more leg kicks than they do now and all power. I thnk thta they would have been seen as much like the early JKA guys. And as for your instructor, Good for him. this shows his charactor and it passes my "good guy" meter nicely ;D at most levels the tournaments are a bit of a joke, and I notice that the "Favorites" of the judges tend to win in Kata and even in Kumite. For me the only ones I watch are the old ones and the higher level competitions. Can not agree more! Not all clubs are doing the Jissen Kumite, the ones I have seen in my area only practice the tournament crap that allows for and pushes head kicks and does not let head punching at all....its basically TKD with a Japanese spin! Its like I said, their are guys from all over whom I would rather have in my corner in a fight than even some of my seniors. However I think that Kyokushin got such a bad rap from its founder being a huckster of sorts (not totally but he took the marketing way to seriously and way to far in some cases). Not all are jokes and TKD...but they are practicing a style that mostly causes the style to be inneffective unless you train at a school that does not allow the tournament only system. I practiced kyokushin and I have a lot of respect for them and that goes the other way around. I have to say that I have only read about Kyokushin guys that are good fighters outside of tournaments and have not ran into any. But that is not to say that they dont exist and I dont believe in them, just that I have not ran into any yet. Its the same thing as Kung fu and some other styles. I have however ran into people that are totally inept in fighting and some that were unbelievable in Shotokan and a few other styles. Its not the style, its the person, and I would have to say that some styles do start people behind the 8 ball as it were...I have only met one guy that did Tai Chi that was a killer in real life. Again, dont worry about appologizing, I totally respect that you had different experiences, its what makes this site so damn good! .It certainly is not the style but the individual I totally agree.As for mas Oyama founder of kyokushin:some things written about him have been exaggerated indeed(like the fact he fought with 52 bulls-->apparently those were not all big bulls - he even was almost killed by one though ) He was immensely strong and a great martial artist but not a god.I don't think he would have wanted that himself .As a gaijin and korean he had to fight twice as hard to settle his style in japan. It's great to see the respect here even if people have different experiences or opinions indeed
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 4, 2011 15:11:17 GMT
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Post by kensei on Aug 5, 2011 18:35:11 GMT
.It certainly is not the style but the individual I totally agree.As for mas Oyama founder of kyokushin:some things written about him have been exaggerated indeed(like the fact he fought with 52 bulls-->apparently those were not all big bulls - he even was almost killed by one though ) He was immensely strong and a great martial artist but not a god.I don't think he would have wanted that himself .As a gaijin and korean he had to fight twice as hard to settle his style in japan. It's great to see the respect here even if people have different experiences or opinions indeed All the stories and all the hype and marketing aside, its a not bad style that has just as many flaws as any other style out their. Its got its good points we can learn from and its bad points we can avoid if we recognize them. Just because the few guys I have ran into that do the style were less than excellent reprosentatives of the style does not make me think that they are all the same quality. I also met a Chito ryu guy in high school that was an jerk and very egotistical, problem was his technique was weak and his ego was horribly large! Then I met a Chito guy from Ontario who was so nice and respectful that it changed my mind of them. Maybe some day I will run inot a Kyokushin guy that will change my mind as well...I am open to it! ;D
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Post by kensei on Aug 5, 2011 18:44:42 GMT
not really.....okay, a few things stick out to me..and yes..I am a cynical guy. First off only a few of the guys seem to be trying as hard as the gent doing the 100 man sparring to win the fight. Most seem to be waiting to get hit...kind of like "okay, how is he going to beat me"...most of the techniques are not full contact and even the kicks that do connect Jodan dont seem to be very hard, one "SPECTACULAR" kick that they slow down for effect...does not make contact at all! Not that I am suggesting that this is a full contact fake..its more just a bit off for me...I would rather see the guys all trying to win. Next, lets talk statistics. These are all Dan level guys, most look to be very young and able bodies, the instructor doing the 100 man is also strong and able bodied. The statistics are against him. If you have any one that is black belt level who gets into a kumite match with 100 guys, he is going to loose some of those fights and with even semin contact thrown in he will probably not be able to work effectivly past 20-40 fights. Ergo, this kind of test is fixed. I would say that if you were to take ANY instructor and ask them to do semi contact sparring against 100 people in a row they would look at you as if you were mad. Unless its a set up and marketing tool...I dont believe for one minute if you were facing 100 men who wanted to actually score on you and beat you that ANYONE would be able to do this kind of challenge and complete it..and if they get past 50 men...I would expect a long hospital stay at the end of this for him. Now if you were to say that those black belts he is facing were actually white belts told not to hit him to hard...I would suggest he could get thru 50 of them maybe...accidents happen. So, to be clear..it does not impress as I dont think it is what it is presented as.
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 5, 2011 22:11:53 GMT
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 6, 2011 6:53:44 GMT
steve, headshots are not allowed in kyokushin(they were allowed in the early days),just like there are no low kicks allowed in shotokan(which I thin is also stupid) .This is not a test of technical ability certainly not, it's a test of perseverance, showing fighting spirit. I'm sorry but I don't agree that every fit young man would complete this test.It's not only a physical test but about mental strenght too .If it was so easy why are there only about 15 kyokushin fighters who completed this test ?I think that Hanshi Arneill(who you certainly must know over the pond)is one of the few foreigners who did it. In the kyokushin dojo we had a wee test like this and I can assure you that after fighting several opponents I was shattered,bruised and felt like diving into a bucket with my head Technical or martial proficiency is not the point of the test. it's just not possible for ex. to kick technically perfect after fighting several opponents... I would challenge everyone(not you steve ;-) ) young and fit here to fight people "full contact"for an hour (you can leave the headshots too)to see how you cope with it....and no drinking or going for a pee oh and let someone take a photie of you just after you finished so we can see that wee smile on your face
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 6, 2011 10:30:55 GMT
Sorry lads but I have to agree with Guy. It is not technically wonderful but as an example of spirit and tenacity it is inspiring. I have read Steve Arneils account of his test and it was brutal ! There are something like 5 vids in total and I agree some of the dan grades are not of great standard but that would be the same for shotokan. You would be hard-pressed to find 100 technically superb dan grades in Shotokan too for an event of this kind. If head shots were allowed this would be over very quickly but I still think this is admirable and requires great conditioning.
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 6, 2011 10:34:42 GMT
Re-read this post and we are in danger of coming across as saying Shotokan is the best etc. Karate is karate, styles are non-sense! I think I am paraphrasing someone famous ( Motobu or Bruce Lee or someone Lol ) Its not the dog in the fight... its the fight in the dog! ( that one was Barry Mcguigan)
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 7, 2011 22:49:53 GMT
steve, headshots are not allowed in kyokushin(they were allowed in the early days),just like there are no low kicks allowed in shotokan(which I thin is also stupid) .This is not a test of technical ability certainly not, it's a test of perseverance, showing fighting spirit. I'm sorry but I don't agree that every fit young man would complete this test.It's not only a physical test but about mental strenght too .If it was so easy why are there only about 15 kyokushin fighters who completed this test ?I think that Hanshi Arneill(who you certainly must know over the pond)is one of the few foreigners who did it. In the kyokushin dojo we had a wee test like this and I can assure you that after fighting several opponents I was shattered,bruised and felt like diving into a bucket with my head Technical or martial proficiency is not the point of the test. it's just not possible for ex. to kick technically perfect after fighting several opponents... I would challenge everyone(not you steve ;-) ) young and fit here to fight people "full contact"for an hour (you can leave the headshots too)to see how you cope with it....and no drinking or going for a pee oh and let someone take a photie of you just after you finished so we can see that wee smile on your face Guy with the utmost respect - I stand by my original point - from my era alone I can think of MANY whom I am confident would have completed this challenge - we did very long heavy contact training sessions as a matter of course - and Club, regional and National Squad sessions were reknoned for being - well brutal and exhausting. Competitions themselves were very heavy contact with Constant risk of very real injury - of a serious nature and this happened all the time - it was our sport and we accepted that just like - for example - Rugby Players. I think you MAY be believing a bit of the Kyokushinkai Hype - go explore how one Senior JKA Instructor paid a visit to the Kyokushinkai Dojo after Oyama trashed shotokan in the Japanese press! I think you are being - well presumptious to assume only 16 Kyokushinkai Karateka out of all the Karateka in the world have had the 'minerals' to complete such a test of stamina and mental intent! read anything you can about completing the JKA Instructors course - Or training at a long list of Dojo I could name - Takushoku - or The Red Traingle being THE one (amongst many) in Europe. I am NOT suggesting such training and Karateka no longer exist but it was Everywhere back then. Not the guilded reminitions of an Older Man - just a fact!
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Post by tomobrien on Aug 8, 2011 1:28:43 GMT
One of my favorite KO's - I didn't like Bisping on TUF & I didn't like it when he spit on Rivera. I did like it when Hendo double KO'd him I hope Mayhem kicks his butt! Let's watch this again - www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi8_-xO9BH4Thanks, Tom
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 8, 2011 11:38:47 GMT
steve, headshots are not allowed in kyokushin(they were allowed in the early days),just like there are no low kicks allowed in shotokan(which I thin is also stupid) .This is not a test of technical ability certainly not, it's a test of perseverance, showing fighting spirit. I'm sorry but I don't agree that every fit young man would complete this test.It's not only a physical test but about mental strenght too .If it was so easy why are there only about 15 kyokushin fighters who completed this test ?I think that Hanshi Arneill(who you certainly must know over the pond)is one of the few foreigners who did it. In the kyokushin dojo we had a wee test like this and I can assure you that after fighting several opponents I was shattered,bruised and felt like diving into a bucket with my head Technical or martial proficiency is not the point of the test. it's just not possible for ex. to kick technically perfect after fighting several opponents... I would challenge everyone(not you steve ;-) ) young and fit here to fight people "full contact"for an hour (you can leave the headshots too)to see how you cope with it....and no drinking or going for a pee oh and let someone take a photie of you just after you finished so we can see that wee smile on your face Guy with the utmost respect - I stand by my original point - from my era alone I can think of MANY whom I am confident would have completed this challenge - we did very long heavy contact training sessions as a matter of course - and Club, regional and National Squad sessions were reknoned for being - well brutal and exhausting. Competitions themselves were very heavy contact with Constant risk of very real injury - of a serious nature and this happened all the time - it was our sport and we accepted that just like - for example - Rugby Players. I think you MAY be believing a bit of the Kyokushinkai Hype - go explore how one Senior JKA Instructor paid a visit to the Kyokushinkai Dojo after Oyama trashed shotokan in the Japanese press! I think you are being - well presumptious to assume only 16 Kyokushinkai Karateka out of all the Karateka in the world have had the 'minerals' to complete such a test of stamina and mental intent! read anything you can about completing the JKA Instructors course - Or training at a long list of Dojo I could name - Takushoku - or The Red Traingle being THE one (amongst many) in Europe. I am NOT suggesting such training and Karateka no longer exist but it was Everywhere back then. Not the guilded reminitions of an Older Man - just a fact! it has nothing to do with me believing the kyokushin hype (if there's such a thing) steve.I'm 42 y old and have long gone beyond the worshipping of some japanese sensei whether it be funakoshi,oyama or others for that matter nor do I think this style is better than that. it neither is my intention to start an argument about this style being better than that....I'm sure that in the old days there were both hard and brutal contact fights in shotokan,goju ryu whatever.You don't have to convince me that competition in shotokan was brutal ,that training at takushoku uni was very hard and brutal I know that. ...I don't care either if that jka instructor beat up kyokushin fighters to make apoint or whatever.. the discussion is about the 100men kumite: here's a list of fighters who completed the 100men kumite if you don't believe me(you can count for yerself how many have been succesful):http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/100mankumite.htm#Kumite The 100menkumite lasts for several hours and even if the opponents might not go 100% for it,I still think it's admirable what they do.If you can get your hands on Steve Arneills 100men kumite adventure I suggest you read it through.In those days knockdown rules like today didn't exist:full attacks to the head with both hands and feet were allowed,grabbing and throwing too.I'm sorry but I stick with my original post that not every young fit karateka will end this test succesfully so I think we have to agree to disagree I love shotokan I'm lucky I have a very open minded sensei . I take the good things I learned in KK(just like shihan Yokota did btw) and try to mix it with my shotokan(I don't even care if I dont literally follow the jka syllabus by doing that).I'm also not blind for the flaws the style has.I just respect them for what they do and I'm glad they respect me for what I do.
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Post by kensei on Aug 8, 2011 15:39:36 GMT
First off the whole thing is a bit like a two hour dance off with contact...like a prom date gone wrong...HORRIBLY WRONG. the contact is limited so it becomes a endurance test, which is fine, but if you wrap a pig in a bow it is still a pig in a bow. Fancy it up as a Kumite drill with 100 men and you sell it as something it is not...that is about the only issue I have with it. That and they sell it as UNIQUE to KK, back in the day Dingman Sensei used to have Kangeiko early in the morning and near the end of that practice we would do one day of an hour of sparring with everyone that was their. It was light free style and we did not speed up because we knew it was 1 hour. We all made it, young...old...male...female. So, yah, its very possible to do light free style for an hour and our light free style was light contact only. I belive its possible because we used to all do half that....an extra hour is simply putting more time in running to get your cardio up and doing some extra training. Lets not make more out of it than it is. Besides if you sell it the right way you scare everyone from trying it....and yes, we were all battered at the end of class...but we used hand pads as we DID punch to the face and each year we did it ( about four in total) we had a broken nose every year and many split lips....all in good fun!
All the accepted crap aside, all Karate people can benefit and learn from cross training in different Karate styles. The reason is not some mystic secret, its simply in the practices of the different groups. Kokyushin does alot more conditioining and impact training than most typical Shotokan clubs. Shotokan has a stronger focus on form and fundamentals (IMHO) than Kyokyushin. If you cross train and take the best from them you can only benefit right?
I just dont get impressed with the 100 man kumite or the knock down tournaments for multiple different reasons and most come back to the fact that they are just not realistic in the long run. For an athlete to step up and do one of these...fantastic, but its limited and eventually they will not be able to do that, be hardwired not to punch to the face and this generation of well conditionined athletes will get their buts handed to them in SD situations and I think lots of them will fail in open tournaments because they simply are wired differently come kumite time.
Just my thoughts, but we can all learn from each other in this case!
J
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 8, 2011 17:08:41 GMT
james,
You don't like the knockdown tournaments so what you think of shotokan's competition ? it's just a game of tag to me.Is that realistic ?people stopping their punch inches before the target ? who get disqualified because of too much contact,who are jumping around like rabbits..c'mon we have to be serious here.That said:Competition is competition and not SD or realistic fighting either.
I think shihan Yokota answered it for me when he was so nice to answer my question why he did KK for a period.I don't think he'll mind me posting this here: "The biggest thing I learned from Kyokushin is "hitting" the opponent and getting really hit. In Shotokan we are supposed to stop our punches and kicks before impact (though you may be allowed to hit lightly). This concept is truly significant and making most of the shotokan practitioners "paper tiger". Most of the Shotokan practitioners do not know how hard it is to knock down someone with a single punch or a kick. They also do not know the fear of getting actually punched or kicked. Unless you truly understand this concept Shotokan karate cannot be an effective from martial arts perspective. "
I think we have just to agree to disagree.I think the 100men kumite is something to admire you and steve don't .. so we better leave it at that.
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Post by kensei on Aug 8, 2011 23:18:36 GMT
Guy, could not agree with you more about Shotokan tournaments. But I have always thought tournaments were for people that needed a medal to pin on their chest to make them feel worthy of themselves. I dont really think tournaments in any shape or way are worth a serious look if you are working on learning SD or Karate for life/health.
I took up some kick boxing to learn what impact was like, we do light contact and impact training at my club so the students are used to hitting things and getting hit. I also have to say that those that push the getting hit and hitting things to much end up getting hurt more often and effecting their health. For those that seem to avoid injury its like my Judo Sensei once told me, those that get hit often may not show the injury on the outside but it catches up to them...so even if they did full contact and did not get hurt...he suggested it took as much time of their lives as smoking!
I agree that we have to disagree on the 100man kumite thing, It just seems to be polorizing people ot much and to be frank I dont want that. We are learning way to much here to have an argument over something like that!
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 9, 2011 2:25:02 GMT
Guy with the utmost respect - I stand by my original point - from my era alone I can think of MANY whom I am confident would have completed this challenge - we did very long heavy contact training sessions as a matter of course - and Club, regional and National Squad sessions were reknoned for being - well brutal and exhausting. Competitions themselves were very heavy contact with Constant risk of very real injury - of a serious nature and this happened all the time - it was our sport and we accepted that just like - for example - Rugby Players. I think you MAY be believing a bit of the Kyokushinkai Hype - go explore how one Senior JKA Instructor paid a visit to the Kyokushinkai Dojo after Oyama trashed shotokan in the Japanese press! I think you are being - well presumptious to assume only 16 Kyokushinkai Karateka out of all the Karateka in the world have had the 'minerals' to complete such a test of stamina and mental intent! read anything you can about completing the JKA Instructors course - Or training at a long list of Dojo I could name - Takushoku - or The Red Traingle being THE one (amongst many) in Europe. I am NOT suggesting such training and Karateka no longer exist but it was Everywhere back then. Not the guilded reminitions of an Older Man - just a fact! it has nothing to do with me believing the kyokushin hype (if there's such a thing) steve.I'm 42 y old and have long gone beyond the worshipping of some japanese sensei whether it be funakoshi,oyama or others for that matter nor do I think this style is better than that. it neither is my intention to start an argument about this style being better than that....I'm sure that in the old days there were both hard and brutal contact fights in shotokan,goju ryu whatever.You don't have to convince me that competition in shotokan was brutal ,that training at takushoku uni was very hard and brutal I know that. ...I don't care either if that jka instructor beat up kyokushin fighters to make apoint or whatever.. the discussion is about the 100men kumite: here's a list of fighters who completed the 100men kumite if you don't believe me(you can count for yerself how many have been succesful):http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/100mankumite.htm#Kumite The 100menkumite lasts for several hours and even if the opponents might not go 100% for it,I still think it's admirable what they do.If you can get your hands on Steve Arneills 100men kumite adventure I suggest you read it through.In those days knockdown rules like today didn't exist:full attacks to the head with both hands and feet were allowed,grabbing and throwing too.I'm sorry but I stick with my original post that not every young fit karateka will end this test succesfully so I think we have to agree to disagree I love shotokan I'm lucky I have a very open minded sensei . I take the good things I learned in KK(just like shihan Yokota did btw) and try to mix it with my shotokan(I don't even care if I dont literally follow the jka syllabus by doing that).I'm also not blind for the flaws the style has.I just respect them for what they do and I'm glad they respect me for what I do. Guy I am quite surprised you have answered in this manner. Firstly, This is a forum for discussion and debate - I am not arguing with you by disagreeing with some points you made Guy. I began with pointing out i was making my points with respect to you - actually with the utmost respect! I stated some facts that I am sure many would verify as having been so and I also was sure to point out that these facts were not , shall we say, more vivid etc due to the reminiscing of a person way past 42 (argh such youthful days! . I suggest some research for you - as you have I - which is great! I at NO point trashed Kyokushinkai but I did comment on the undeniable 'Hype' that Oyama and his PR people loved to circulate! Surely you accept it has been so. No Doubt the 100 man K was exhausting and very physically gruelling but i repeat both back then and now I am sure there were/are many karateka and other MA's who'd manage it. Oh and please go and read my comments on the 1st post on this thread that I started - I feel I was very complimentary about KK Karateka if less so about their comp rules! ;D finally listen to the comments of Ged Moran, in this American Made short clip from a documentary, regarding the level of contact we were allowed back in the day! Enjoy: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNf0AgqnZP0So as you say - lets agree to disagree but do it agreeablY! I think you will have gathered enough about me by now to know I have indulged in and totally recomend training with other styles and i am sure it was as much a beneficial and enjoyable experience for you as it has always been for me - No disagreement there at all! have a great week! OSU!
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Post by tomobrien on Aug 9, 2011 2:43:14 GMT
Mike Tyson said "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." Thanks, Tom
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 9, 2011 3:10:53 GMT
Sorry Guy it didn't come through in my post above ENJOY!
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Post by guyakuzuki on Aug 9, 2011 7:44:26 GMT
Guy I am quite surprised you have answered in this manner. Firstly, This is a forum for discussion and debate - I am not arguing with you by disagreeing with some points you made Guy. I began with pointing out i was making my points with respect to you - actually with the utmost respect! I stated some facts that I am sure many would verify as having been so and I also was sure to point out that these facts were not , shall we say, more vivid etc due to the reminiscing of a person way past 42 (argh such youthful days! . I suggest some research for you - as you have I - which is great! I at NO point trashed Kyokushinkai but I did comment on the undeniable 'Hype' that Oyama and his PR people loved to circulate! Surely you accept it has been so. No Doubt the 100 man K was exhausting and very physically gruelling but i repeat both back then and now I am sure there were/are many karateka and other MA's who'd manage it. Oh and please go and read my comments on the 1st post on this thread that I started - I feel I was very complimentary about KK Karateka if less so about their comp rules! ;D finally listen to the comments of Ged Moran, in this American Made short clip from a documentary, regarding the level of contact we were allowed back in the day! Enjoy: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNf0AgqnZP0So as you say - lets agree to disagree but do it agreeablY! I think you will have gathered enough about me by now to know I have indulged in and totally recomend training with other styles and i am sure it was as much a beneficial and enjoyable experience for you as it has always been for me - No disagreement there at all! ------------------------ steve, I'm sorry if I came over in the wrong way.You know that I have great respect for you .In fact I always liked the way you thought about MA and your open-mindedness I didn't want to come over like you were bashing KK surely not .I didn't want to sound patronising either because I have no right whatsoever to do that.(I'm not that kind of person anyway).I think the problem with a debate on the net is that you can't "feel the tone" in which something is said)if you know what I mean. I think if many shotokan instructors would be so open-minded like you and James It would be a big improvement to shotokan in general cos it's getting to much of a watered down version in many dojos(not only in shotokan in fact but other karate styles too I guess). I really learned a lot from my time in KK and I really respect these people for what they do..it's different but it's karate nevertheless. I think we better agree to disagree indeed on the 100men kumite ;-) and my apologies again ...if you were nearby I would give you a big hug big yin(but I'm not going to kiss you though)
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Post by jimlukelkc on Aug 9, 2011 10:59:45 GMT
Look , we`ve all had a drink........
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Post by fujicolt on Aug 16, 2011 4:20:25 GMT
Look , we`ve all had a drink........ James 'how very very dare you!' ;D ;D And Guy thanks you for your kind words and I am pleased that any misunderstanding has been sorted. Please understand that by it's very nature a 'debate and discussion' site like this great forum will create disagreements as we all discuss a subject that we are passionately involved in and interested in improving our knowledge of and skills in. It's great though that we can all put effort into agreeing to disagree agreeably. I am however saddend that a Kiss is not possible - at my age a Kiss from man, woman or even my Dogs is a major event and rare in occuring! LOL!
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Post by deckerdude304 on Feb 5, 2012 23:05:11 GMT
guyakuzuki, a quick question: Am i right in thinking that it was, in fact, the great Steve Arneil who was the first European to complete this 100 man kumite? I made the BIG mistake once on another MA site where i watched a 100 man kumite competition someone had sent in to the site. I posted that these guys were nothing but 'fodder' for Black Belts to practise on!! That DID NOT go down well at all, with ANY of the different Karate styles on that site, i can tell you! I thought about it for awhile, then re-posted with kind of what YOU are saying about them on here. It IS something to behold and admire, it DOES say much about the spirit and the tenacity-not only of the practisioners of this particular style but also the style itself, and i think that the lower ranked grades would be inspired by the higher ranked grades in their achievments.
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Post by kensei on Feb 6, 2012 20:48:23 GMT
in the well over 3 decades I have been training now I have had my share of "Cross training" with other styles and the one thing I can say for sure about ALL styles is that they all have their good points, and their not so good points.
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Post by th0mas on Mar 16, 2012 13:30:58 GMT
I once watched a chap go for his 2nd dan in Sekijuku (Pseudo-KK). He had to undertake a 25 man fight. Full contact (no head punches tho). Combatants had to wear flimsy mits, but no other protection.
The first 10 fights were brown belts and first dan's. Given it was a "grading weekend" the brown belts were totally up for it as their performance would also reflect on each of their Dan gradings.
The chap in question held is own during these early bouts but by fight number 15 through to 20 he was not "winning" ....anything... surviving, just.
The last 5 fights were truely brutal. The Organisation's seniors fought the last 5 and they did not hold back. He was dropped at least 2 or 3 times in each of those last fights... It was horrible to watch. And he had no weapons by which to fight with, he was young (18 or so) he did not have the size or strength of the majority of the grown men he fought and they really let him have it.
The final outcome, he got through it, but failed the 2nd Dan grading as he was so ill he couldn't complete the second day of the grading where he had to do the kata etc...
To be honest there was no letting the guy off, none of the fighters held back and if I am honest, I believe the whole thing bordered on abuse...
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