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Post by fujicolt on Sept 14, 2011 1:25:52 GMT
I would like to ask a couple of questions in order to get a general understanding of how people view certain things and what your expectations are. I would be most grateful for as many answers as possible to see if there are common or varied views/approaches and general positions upon the matters in question - thanks in advance Guys and Gals.
1. How many times a year do you attend special courses?
A. One day Courses?
a1. What do you expect to pay per hour for the course?
b. Weekend Courses with an overnight stay at or near the Location of the Course?
b1. What do you expect to pay as an attendee, per hour for the course?
c. How many times a year do you invite guest Instructors to conduct a course at your Dojo?
c1. What do you expect to pay per hour for the course? (Meaning what do you expect the Instructors Fee and expenses to be and what price you think is reasonable for each attendee to pay)
2. At special courses how would you like the Guest Instructor to deliver the class? (Please comment on content and teaching method).
2a. Also please comment on anything that you have experienced that you DID NOT like.
Thank You Very Much!
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Post by superjock on Sept 15, 2011 3:42:50 GMT
Not ignoring you mate just having a good hard think about this. As you can understand I have done a huge re-evaluation of my training goals and aims..........to be honest I don't know but am still thinking about it. I was going to fly down to Dunedin to train with Taira but ask my self the question why. Answer was that one of his students supported me on my Friendship Weekend. Is that good enough reason to spend $600............not really. Taira may be great but would it be value for money? Tak Kubota in Wellington in a couple of weeks worth $3-400 (travel accom and training)? What would I get out of it ? At the end of the day it's the training that matters, I can do that at home. Generally these things tend to be over subscribed then all you get is entertainment rather than knowledge. Still don't know can't afford it anyway...........kids come first. I'll come back to this. Much naval gazing needs to happen  |
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 15, 2011 11:13:55 GMT
Andrew, thanks for considering these questions for me, I hope others also will. I find it very enlightening and similar to other verbal answers I have had, that value for money is now a major factor - rather than just going along because it is an association course or a BIG Name.
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Post by superjock on Sept 16, 2011 3:37:29 GMT
There was a time in my mid-twenties when I would travel all over the Uk to attend courses with the top names. I gradually came to the conclusion that I was not learning much and they were just pointing out the same faults as at home dojo. If I got any input at all. When I took my shodan with Andy Sherry in Kendal in 1999 there was 300 people on that course. The only input I got from him that day was a sly chuckle when I sorted out some heavy handed fellow right in front of him before the grading  and pass shodan at the end of my grading  Perhaps Fleur or Megan would be the right people to talk to on this one. |
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Post by megang on Sept 16, 2011 9:20:00 GMT
In the last year I have attended 3 courses, however now I think I've become more selective in what I would attend mainly because I have come to realise that that something relevant to my style is important - having said that each course has had something of value to offer!
I don't tend to assess a per hr value but rather the cost vs how many hours training I get... I just paid 120 for 8 hrs which is the most I have paid but the instructor is 6th Dan so worth it in my opinion. It's really the same for a weekend course - the better the instructor the more I would pay.
I must say I have enjoyed all the courses I have attended and think every one of them have had something to offer... I guess it is an individual perception re the value and that is determined by the level and quality of the instructor... Hope that helps!
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Post by fleur on Sept 16, 2011 12:01:20 GMT
Hi Steve, I have attended 3 special courses so far this year and shortly about to attend my 4th. I have paid a range of prices. The only Auckland course I attended this year, which meant no travel expenses was $50 for two hours, however a couple of years ago I attended a 12hr weekend course for only $40 and it was a fantastic course at that. So it can vary incredibly. However to answer your question I would expect to pay around $20ph for an experienced instructor.
However sometimes students do have to take into account more than just the cost of the course. A $200 instructor fee for a weekend course can easily turn to $600 when airfares, accomodation and food have to be taken into account. So if the course fee is reasonable, then it does make it more inviting to take the plunge.
Can only offer my imput on Q 1 & 2, as an attendee only.
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Post by Paul Bedard on Sept 18, 2011 15:22:49 GMT
When we have our provincial training with the masters, minimum 3x per year, the course fees are $60 for locals & $50 for out or towners. This would normally be for a minimum of 5 classes. As dojo instructors we can also attend the lower rank classes ( white - brown belt ), so that would be another 3 classes. For locals who can go home at night this is so reasonable that at times, I don`t understand why the locals don`t take in all the classes. We try to utilize three different venues, all about an hour apart. a lot of us go to them all but it amazes me on how a large percentage of locals don`t. I travel 3 hrs to get to the first class, then start travelling to the other venues from there. Also I have to take a day or two off of work & pay for at least two nights accomodation, add to that the gas money & out of towners pay considerably more than locals. Hence my lack of understanding of local effort.
If we look at my case:
$50 seminar fees,
$100 per night motel X 2 nights,
$100 for gasoline,
$100 minimum for meals,
$30 for Kenshushei,
$175 for a day off work ( after taxes ).
So add a few little miscellaneous expenses & we are getting close to costing me $700 for a 3-4 day course. Of course the cost of the course is minor in comparison to the other expenses.
If I look at a local perspective; $60 for seminar, a day off work ( I`ll be generous ) $200, gasoline ( again generous ) $50, meals out ( generous) $ 50. $ 30 kenshushei ( if an inst trainee), can get close to $400. So really the $50 or $60 for the course is not the major expense. However having said so, responsible planners, will need to consider all of their participants expenses when setting the price for their courses, as a high course fee might be last straw that makes it to much of a financial burden for some participants.
Not that some instructors aren`t worth more, but you need to have the number of participants to bring in the revenue to pay for all the expenses of having said course & hopefully a little extra to put in the kitty, for when you start preparing for the next one...
Osu
Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 18, 2011 15:49:48 GMT
For the Friendship courses we Charge £175 = 270 CAD. This fee includes 1. minum 12 hrs training (we did 18 hrs on the last one cos we had an extra day (no extra charge). 2. Tent accomodation (No fee for pitching the Tent. 3. Shower, Bath and toilet facilities. 4. Two Dojo. 5. Three Experienced Instructors whom 'Live' with the students for three days and are available for questions or confirmationdiscussion throughout. 6. Fresh Cooked Brakfast, Lunch and Evening Meal each day - with light refreshments such as Tea, Coffee, Light drinks, Biscuits or Crisps free of charge and available at any time. 7. Special Roast Supper on the Saturday Evening. 8.Use of all equipment necessary for the course content. 9. Access to the Dojo's at anytime, except scheduled class time, for personal practice. 10. Final meal can be ordered as a packed meal and drinks for the journey home - No FEE. Only extra fee for participants is travel to and from the Course. Do you think that's a reasonable price Paul? |
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Post by Paul Bedard on Sept 18, 2011 16:59:24 GMT
That would be similar to a camp that we have that`s not to far away. That price is about $350 U.S., so yes Steve the price of your camp is on par, or slightly more reasonable. Steve I have always been impressed with the `bang for the buck` that you seem to provide for your `Friendship Course` Osu Paul B |
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Post by superjock on Sept 18, 2011 18:59:07 GMT
That price looks more than reasonable Steve.........as a professional karate instructor I doubt that you will be making anything at all out of that.
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Post by fleur on Sept 18, 2011 19:25:43 GMT
Yes, Steve very reasonable, but in these tough times I think it is important to be realistic, so good on you. We have to remember that to our families our karate is a past time and maybe a luxury. It costs money very week for training, gear, tournaments etc. So course costs can be seen as further self indulence of the family grocery money. We have to be careful not to piss the other half off too much so well priced courses makes it far more likely that the other half will let you go or that you can go feeling relatively guilt free. I'm off to Oz soon for a couple of days training, it will probably end up costing me near $1000. There is another course 6 weeks after that which would probably cost $500 -$600 but the guilt is killing me so I just probably wont make that one.
Big thumbs up Steve on keeping it real.
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Post by koshi no kire on Sept 19, 2011 11:57:48 GMT
I think a big factor to consider is the class size being taught. On a big course with many students you can be stuck at the back, unable to see too well (if you're a bit of a short-arse like me), and sometimes even finding it hard to hear exactly what's being said if the acoustics of the sports hall are bad.
The Friendship Courses are limited to low numbers, and as a result you get so much personal attention and positive criticism that the 'value for money' aspect, if you like, is immense. And I can see and hear everything...
On the big national courses I have to push up to the front to try to get the most out of it, especially when the instructor speaks quietly and the other students are big lads and don't crouch or kneel during the explanations...
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Post by kensei on Sept 19, 2011 12:24:46 GMT
1. How many times a year do you attend special courses? A. One day Courses? a1. What do you expect to pay per hour for the course? b. Weekend Courses with an overnight stay at or near the Location of the Course? b1. What do you expect to pay as an attendee, per hour for the course? We have seminars with our testing every three weeks, and then we have a special national course once a year that we have advertised as well as a few that the national group offers irregularly…like one in Cuba coming up. We normally pay $35 US a day for special classes at the national level and $35 for the three day seminars regionally. c. How many times a year do you invite guest Instructors to conduct a course at your Dojo? c1. What do you expect to pay per hour for the course? (Meaning what do you expect the Instructors Fee and expenses to be and what price you think is reasonable for each attendee to pay) We don’t, to be frank we are JKA and we don’t often invite instructors. Granted most of the other instructors in Canada may very well have started Karate under my instructor and have left or were in an organization we were in and we trained beside them for years under Master Yaguchi and Okizaki. So, we don’t often get high level instructors landing at our airport that we are able to invite. We hope to change that!  2. At special courses how would you like the Guest Instructor to deliver the class? (Please comment on content and teaching method). 2a. Also please comment on anything that you have experienced that you DID NOT like. Thank You Very Much! I want to see things and be taught things that are not basic rehashes of things I have seen and been told 1 million times. I want fresh and interesting, challenging and new. If I have been taught hip rotation the last 9 times and then you come back and teach it again…I am not going for a 10th time. I have been told that the reason some instructors teach the same things is they feel the students are not working on and picking up the things that they taught the first nine times so they HAVE to teach it again and again…Bull puckey! If we don’t do something to their liking its often a physical thing, some can not do it, we will keep trying but for gods sake we are paying big bucks here…..Entertain and make it challenging and even if we only get it a bit, we will keep working on it…SO MOVE ON! It makes me think they don’t know anything but the same rehashed crap! In school (both high school and university) the best instructors are those that make you laugh and work hard. The ones I never signed up for were the ones who looked constipated and taught like they had a crap attitude ( I know two Pooply jokes in one description…deal with it). The ones that looked as though they had a bad batch of prunes in the morning were the ones I skipped over. Be pleasant and be interesting. Teach things that are just above our heads and don’t be condescending or insulting…we are paying for it you know. One Gent we had out was chatty…all he did was talk crap about us and the Japanese and how the Japanese did great Karate and we did not in one breath , and in the next how the “Japs” were racist and never let him get ahead, horrible people. Now I know enough Japanese instructors to tell you that man is full of horse crap! And now he has his own style of Shotokan and followers that defend him like he is Jesus himself…good for him….Still does not make him a good instructor or representative of Karate. Be honest, encouraging and interesting….I know you have the last one down..sort of…and the first one you have to a flaw….  |
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 20, 2011 1:07:11 GMT
That price looks more than reasonable Steve.........as a professional karate instructor I doubt that you will be making anything at all out of that. Andrew - I long ago stopped having Karate as my main income and it has in many ways brought it into a much better position for me. I can pick and choose where I teach and when i realise that a club is struggling financially I can usually help out and thus help them boost membership etc. We never have made money, and do not intend to, from the friendship Courses. In Fact on the last two courses we actually raised several hundred pounds for MYELOMA UK. (My wonderful Mother in Law passed last Christmas with Myeloma Amyliadosis). It is the concept that is the important thing - due to these courses many karateka (from 11 different Shotokan Organisations) have made new friendships and regularly meet up to train together etc. Also we have a band of regulars who now call the courses their 'other club' and enjoy coming along each time not only to train but also to spend time with Karateka that they didn't know 4 yrs ago when I restarted the FC's. To me that is a far bigger Pay Day than running a huge course and making a few grand. I am also immensely pleased that the concept has caught peoples attention and Friendship courses are being planned in various areas of the world. IPPON - IMHO! |
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 20, 2011 1:12:24 GMT
That would be similar to a camp that we have that`s not to far away. That price is about $350 U.S., so yes Steve the price of your camp is on par, or slightly more reasonable. Steve I have always been impressed with the `bang for the buck` that you seem to provide for your `Friendship Course` Osu Paul B Paul - is the camp you speak of open to all and what are the general attendance numbers? How many Dojo do they use and how many hours training. ? Oh and how many Instructors? Sorry to bother but I have a genuine reason for asking as I am having to evaluate some things as we are moving house and will be unable to use my own Land and Dojo next year. |
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Post by superjock on Sept 20, 2011 3:50:58 GMT
That price looks more than reasonable Steve.........as a professional karate instructor I doubt that you will be making anything at all out of that. Andrew - I long ago stopped having Karate as my main income and it has in many ways brought it into a much better position for me. I can pick and choose where I teach and when i realise that a club is struggling financially I can usually help out and thus help them boost membership etc. We never have made money, and do not intend to, from the friendship Courses. In Fact on the last two courses we actually raised several hundred pounds for MYELOMA UK. (My wonderful Mother in Law passed last Christmas with Myeloma Amyliadosis). It is the concept that is the important thing - due to these courses many karateka (from 11 different Shotokan Organisations) have made new friendships and regularly meet up to train together etc. Also we have a band of regulars who now call the courses their 'other club' and enjoy coming along each time not only to train but also to spend time with Karateka that they didn't know 4 yrs ago when I restarted the FC's. To me that is a far bigger Pay Day than running a huge course and making a few grand. I am also immensely pleased that the concept has caught peoples attention and Friendship courses are being planned in various areas of the world. IPPON - IMHO! |
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Post by Paul Bedard on Sept 21, 2011 0:56:33 GMT
Here goes Steve. My experience at this camp which is in Washington state about 5hrs from me;
Open yes, I know of abt least 4 different orgs represented. However Instructors usually two different orgs.
Instructors minimum 3 usually 4.
Hrs of training- about 10 + 3hrs kenshushei (ISKF inst trainees ),
Dojo`s available- 3 + the great outdoors if weather permits.
Also evening lectures about 1-1/2 hrs.
This camp celebrated it`s 20th yr last year.
Really nice facility..
Osu
Paul B
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 21, 2011 1:44:51 GMT
Here goes Steve. My experience at this camp which is in Washington state about 5hrs from me; Open yes, I know of abt least 4 different orgs represented. However Instructors usually two different orgs. Instructors minimum 3 usually 4. Hrs of training- about 10 + 3hrs kenshushei (ISKF inst trainees ), Dojo`s available- 3 + the great outdoors if weather permits. Also evening lectures about 1-1/2 hrs. This camp celebrated it`s 20th yr last year. Really nice facility.. Osu Paul B THANKS PAUL! Sounds like a great course! can you let me know numbers that attend and how many days the course is please - the info will help me make some decisions. ANYONE ELSE GOT ANY COMMENTS, INFO OR ANSWERS TO MY ORIGINAL QUESTIONS PLEASE! |
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Post by Paul Bedard on Sept 22, 2011 4:46:34 GMT
I think it hit 120 once, but mostly around 80 karateka. However, I believe that this last one was just over 60.. Not huge but still nice numbers..
Paul B
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Post by Paul Bedard on Sept 22, 2011 4:48:18 GMT
Oops you wanted days. Friday, saturday, sunday.
Paul B
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 22, 2011 13:02:32 GMT
Hi Steve, I typically only attend 3-4 courses outside the normal club run ones each year. Having looked back I'd say they tend to work out at around £7-8/hour. I'm only really interested in the content of the course rather than training with a "name" (if you can combine the both all well and good but experience of big name courses in the past has been doing the same old same old just with more people and less personal attention). Personally I start to see limited value in any course where the instructor/student ratio is much over 25:1 and can't see any point at all in standing in a room of 150+ listening to someone I can't even see over a radio mic' (money would be better spent on some good instructional DVD or book IMHO) SKFC aside, some of the best courses I've been on have actually been free (apart from everybody chipping in a fiver towards hall hire and a "whatever you feel" for charity, these were with the likes of Jeff Nash, Simon Oliver, Zoltan Diens and others) but I appreciate this is a little unusual For residential, the cost of the last SKFC camp was about my limit, not because of any worries about value for money (easily worth every penny!) but just the fact that there is only so much cash in the bank and I'd probably not not consider anything significantly more. |
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 22, 2011 16:07:02 GMT
Hi Steve, I typically only attend 3-4 courses outside the normal club run ones each year. Having looked back I'd say they tend to work out at around £7-8/hour. I'm only really interested in the content of the course rather than training with a "name" (if you can combine the both all well and good but experience of big name courses in the past has been doing the same old same old just with more people and less personal attention). Personally I start to see limited value in any course where the instructor/student ratio is much over 25:1 and can't see any point at all in standing in a room of 150+ listening to someone I can't even see over a radio mic' (money would be better spent on some good instructional DVD or book IMHO) SKFC aside, some of the best courses I've been on have actually been free (apart from everybody chipping in a fiver towards hall hire and a "whatever you feel" for charity, these were with the likes of Jeff Nash, Simon Oliver, Zoltan Diens and others) but I appreciate this is a little unusual For residential, the cost of the last SKFC camp was about my limit, not because of any worries about value for money (easily worth every penny!) but just the fact that there is only so much cash in the bank and I'd probably not not consider anything significantly more. thanks for the info Bob - this is partly why I am asking the questions because , as you know, it is very likely that we shall lose the SKFC venue we have used in recent yrs. the venue helped me keep costs down so i now need to plan a way of doing the courses WITHOUT an increase in price. We'll sort it though! |
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Post by superjock on Sept 22, 2011 19:00:48 GMT
We are kinda lucky over here in that there are holiday camps and Christian camps dotted all over the country. This means that having a residential course need not cost the earth. Our Friendship Course cost including food & accommodation about the same as you would pay for a name, training only. Head for the coast young man something about water and karate.......................... |
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Post by superjock on Sept 22, 2011 19:05:12 GMT
Actually I remember back in the day heading off for a course in Aviemore for the inaugral Scottish Squad training under Billy Higgins. We all slept in the village hall in sleeping bags on the floor. Lasses in one room and the rest of us blokes well...........er......in the night club. Would have been cheap but for the booze. ;D |
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 22, 2011 19:16:57 GMT
I have ran open courses in holiday camps, hotels, village halls and campsites so know the score. The venue for the past four years of FC's has been a major part of their success so I am considering all options for how to take it forward without losing the essence of it all. but all and any suggestions welcome. TA! |
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Post by Dod Watt on Sept 22, 2011 19:39:11 GMT
Why not think a long the line of corporate sponsorship, I'm sure there are local companies that would jump at the chance of advertising, and that would help with the costs |
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 22, 2011 20:09:45 GMT
Worth looking into Dod - but i did PMSL at the thought of some of the sponsors we'd get: Jackass the Movie Age UK Mind Grumpy Old men! Hai Karate Kung fuey crisps Age Concern Dementia UK  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Dod Watt on Sept 22, 2011 20:45:22 GMT
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Post by Bob Davis on Sept 23, 2011 9:21:25 GMT
Something like this looked quite reasonable (if basic) for the sort of numbers we're talking about, might be worth looking at a few Scout/Guide camp websites. £50 per 24 hours for hall hire (with cooking, washing and toilet facilities plus camping for 5-6 tents) overspill camping if that's not enough is only £1.50 per person per night. www.avonscouts.org.uk/mafekinghall/ |
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Post by fujicolt on Sept 23, 2011 10:35:39 GMT
me 'dib dib dib' has been 'dob dob dobbed' Bob a Job!
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and pass shodan at the end of my grading 
