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Post by andyupton on Oct 14, 2011 17:47:41 GMT
A friend of mine on Facebook has a photo of himself doing Knife Hand Block in Back Stance with his left foot forward. I maintain that the correct stance terminology is : HIDARI Kokutsu Dachi Someone else insists that because his RIGHT leg is the weight bearing leg, the correct terminology is : MIGI Kokutsu Dachi. Who is right ?
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Post by jimlukelkc on Oct 14, 2011 19:43:36 GMT
You are.
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Post by andyupton on Oct 14, 2011 20:26:09 GMT
Thanks Jim ! I knew I was right ! ;D
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 17, 2011 6:24:49 GMT
you are correct Andy - the forward leg is the root of the right or left naming. If Kiba Dachi it would be the direction of the technique that defines it. Take Neko Ashi Dachi for example. The major weight is on the rear leg but it is the forward leg that denotes left or right. Also if you make a right leg mae geri your weight is carried totally through the Left leg but it remains a right legged kick and thus is Migi Mae Geri
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Post by kensei on Oct 17, 2011 12:31:18 GMT
The other thing to throw muck on that discussion is in a Hidari Zenkutsu dachi all the weight (most of it) is on the front leg...but the back leg is pushing into the floor and with out that you are simply standing on a bent leg!
I agree with the lads, Andy, you are correct...the other guy is simply being difficult!...oh, and he is wrong in my eyes...which makes it so much better!
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Post by Paul Bedard on Oct 18, 2011 4:09:31 GMT
Agree with the leg leading denoting left of right. As Andy described, this is Hidari.. Some people just like to argue no matter what. Also, reading this post, I`m getting the impression that James likes to be `right`!! lol Osu Paul B
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Post by kensei on Oct 18, 2011 12:04:35 GMT
Also, reading this post, I`m getting the impression that James likes to be `right`!! lol Osu Paul B LMAO, just because I have not come across a situation in the last few days were I was not "right" does not mean I am always "right"....fact is I am married.....my wife lets me know all the time when I am not "right"....any minute now I will get a text message (usually in a meeting or when I can not respond) letting me know how not "right" I happen to be about a multitude of things! Difference is when I was younger and not married I did not like being not "right" now...I am married and dont seem to mind not being "right" all the time.....strange eh! ;D
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Post by kensei on Oct 18, 2011 12:05:53 GMT
How about when you go to a seminar and the instructor does the inside to out side forearm block and calls it Soto Uke...or outside block......
I have been taught that the outside block or Soto Uke comes from outside to in....
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 18, 2011 12:14:06 GMT
It does - ask yer wife for confirmation LOL!
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Post by kensei on Oct 19, 2011 12:21:00 GMT
It does - ask yer wife for confirmation LOL! I always look to my wife to see if I am correct. If I am she normally just nods...if not she gives me "the look" and no matter what I am doing at that time...I switch gears and do the opposite...and then refer back to her again to make sure I am doing it right now.....Keeps me safe from midnight pillows falling on my face "accidentally" like!
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 19, 2011 14:54:05 GMT
the bliss of marraige = they own you! and are usually right anyway! LOL!
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Post by andyupton on Oct 19, 2011 14:54:37 GMT
The argument between myself and a friend of my acquiantance drags on thus : "The current JKA terminology for which side stance you are standing in (taught to me on a coaching course by Ohta Sensei 7th Dan and also in Best Karate books by Nakayama Sensei) is that the stance is ALWAYS NAMED AFTER THE BENT SUPPORTING LEG i.e. in kokutsudachi and nekoashidachi the stance happens to be named after the rear supporting leg. So, Andy, if I am wrong so is the entire JKA and the Best Karate series (published after Dynamic Karate) and Nakayama Sensei. I DON'T THINK SO! Oss" This has been going on for a while now !
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Post by middleton on Oct 19, 2011 18:50:54 GMT
Good afternoon, Very interesting discussion and I actually do see both points of view. To play the Devil's advocate how would you describe Sagi-ashi Dachi? The entire weight of the body is only supported by one leg, but normally the opposite (Side of the Body) is forward. If you were on your right leg would you call it Migi Sagi-ashi Dachi or Hidari Sagi-ashi Dachi? Like I said interesting discussion, and always beneficial to challenge each other's idea, and concepts. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca
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Post by kensei on Oct 19, 2011 20:25:40 GMT
Let me first say that I at first thought..."Damn it, the Japanese is making it difficult for us to communicate"...then I thought about it and tried to describe in in English and threw my hands up in frustrations seeing both sides of the situation. I think this is a case that redacted or shorter terms are not as usefull as the "long english" version. In place of Right front stance/ Migi Zenkutsu dachi....we need Right leg forwards front stance!
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 19, 2011 23:29:47 GMT
Totally agree - why try to remember : Nananame Ne Yokoro Koto instead of 'diagonal evasion techniques'
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Post by kensei on Oct 19, 2011 23:40:36 GMT
I like to simplify it even more....."git out the way...In dat direction!"!!!
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 20, 2011 0:04:47 GMT
Exactly! don't make it harder to learn than need be! we are not japanese and although owe them so much they long ago are the only ones with ideas etc! gosh that is likely to get me in trouble! (again LOL!)
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Post by middleton on Oct 20, 2011 12:33:09 GMT
Good morning, I do agree that instruction should not be made complicated by the over use of Japanese. If a Dojo membership consists of non-speaking Japanese it would seem a negative to use solely Japanese to describe techniques and movement. Even most Japanese instructors have their own way of describing techniques that are in contrast of other Japanese instructors. Although using Japanese and understanding the exact translation can be very beneficial when instructing others, and for our own continued development. Often times these translations can be very straightforward, poetic, and even descriptive of an inherent or intended nature. As for the discussion at hand my thoughts are both ways of describing the stance would be acceptable, as long as the reasons are based on logic and don't contradict other principles. Osu, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca
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Post by barryives on Oct 20, 2011 12:56:39 GMT
I've always trained where the leading leg defines the stance - ergo left foot foward (regardless of stance) would be hidari and vice-versa is migi
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Post by kensei on Oct 20, 2011 14:34:22 GMT
Although using Japanese and understanding the exact translation can be very beneficial when instructing others, and for our own continued development. Often times these translations can be very straightforward, poetic, and even descriptive of an inherent or intended nature. With the utmost and deepest of respect.....I dont agree with the use of Japanese to describe Karate if not training Japanese people. Having said that...its darn fun and interesting to do so...but it has its limits when teaching, especially to the lower belts. Going with the idea that Karate is a physical activity, it behouvs us to make the instuctions that we give to our students as clear and free of random and unclear terminology. I remember when Walter Sensei came back from Japan and taught a class in all Japanese...Man was it cool...but to be frank I got little out of it other than seeing a really cool class being taught and watching a man I greatly respect doing something I could only dream of. I much preffered his class in English that he taught next....because the details he used to describe the actions were clear! I learned in University that you should always instruct athletes in as clear and non-techno speak as possible. The average athlete/student has not graduated with a degree in kinesiology and applied anatomy! So talking about lining up the shoulder girdle to a oblique line and then using rotational force of the trunk with extension of the elbow joint does not translate well...instead say, make your shoulders into a angle with the leadshoulder just infront of the back one, and then turn your body as you stretch out your arm...when shooting a free throw in basketball! Terminology in Karate or anyother coaching job you have should be understood by all the athletes/students and an over use of Japanese, while cool as hell, simply confuses and loses many students. just my 2.5 cents worth.
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Post by middleton on Oct 20, 2011 18:10:11 GMT
Very interesting James. I would be fairly safe in saying that most non-Japanese instructors and Shotokan Dojo's use Japanese terminology. Even if its in a limited or one word capacity. Dojo, Sensei, Dogi, Rei, and Shomen are often words that students know and become familiar with in the very first few lessons. If an instructor or Dojo chooses to incorporate Japanese terminology into training it would only make sense for the correct translation or an explanation of our practices be provided. As an example the Kata that all Shotokan practitioner's (regardless of affiliation) are familiar with. Heian Shodan. Most instructors would explain that the translation means "Peaceful Mind". This translation is fine but fails to grasp its deeper meaning. As a practitioner becomes more proficient with the techniques, it may be beneficial to research the meaning, history, and application of the Kata. So in essence we not only study the movements of Karate but also the culture, and history as well. At times I certainly do think that the Japanese used in classes can go to far. In the case of an all Japanese class taught by Crockford Sensei, I can not speak to his intentions for that class. Maybe it was for the students to gain a unique experience that none of those present had ever had before. Maybe it was intended for the students to "really" watch the techniques demonstrated rather then just listen. In the many classes I have had with him since his return from Japan in 1996 he has never taught speaking all Japanese. So it is defiantly not the norm. At the WTKO Honbu in New York, Sensei Amos does the Dojo Kun in Japanese. I have asked him the reasons why and I deeply respect them. In my Dojo we do the Dojo Kun in English, as I feel the students understand and can relate better (Even though the translation is poorly done). An excellent discussion, and I really appreciate the opportunity to challenge each others idea while ensuring my own are clear and rational. Kind regards, Scott Middleton www.traditionalkarateofbrandon.ca
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Post by kensei on Oct 20, 2011 20:27:03 GMT
To be fair, I have to say that Sensei Walters class in all Japanese was really interesting. You did have to watch him more carefully and it was unique.
I do use some japanese in my classes and we do the Dojo kun in Japanese and english....simply because that is how Dingman Sensei taught me for the last 30+ years.
I dont see an issue with names being used in class like "Mawashi geri" or "Ushiro geri" but when we start having to clarify japanese with more japanese...well toss in the towel and turn to english I think!
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Post by fujicolt on Oct 21, 2011 2:42:01 GMT
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Post by nathanso on Oct 21, 2011 7:11:53 GMT
First off, I would say that for a native English speaker to teach an entire class in the US, UK, or Canada in Japanese makes as much sense to me as teaching the entire class in Croatian or Tagalog. The purpose of teaching is to convey as much information as possible. Choosing to do it in a language that the students don't understand when you have the option of doing it in their (and your) native language is just too bizarre.
I have no objection to people using commonly accepted Japanese terms for techniques (it promotes what Elmar has called the "Japanese psychosphere" that so many are attracted to), but as the discussion above indicates, when even simple concepts like what a stance should be called provokes controversy, it's time to drop it.
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Post by kensei on Oct 21, 2011 15:37:03 GMT
First off, to be 100% fair here, the fact that Sensei Crawford taught a class in as close to all Japanese as possible was a one off and he did it as an special class that was very interesting and really enjoyable. And I have nothing but respect for that man, when the chips were down for him he showed great charactor and did the right thing. Nothing but respect for him at all and his instructor here in Winnipeg, Dingman Sensei shares my feelings about Walter Sensei. I think the class was thought up by Dingman Sensei as a fun alternative to a normal class, and Walter Sensei did come back and teach all english classes for us as well...we were truely lucky back then.
Okay, moving along....I wonce had a book by Tanaka Sensei that I wanted translated from Japanese to english (only to find out that the publisher did that for me a few years later). Anyways, I had a friend in University that was Japanese and her and her husband agreed to help me translate the book for free if I helped them with their English.
The problem was.....Japanese dont use the terminology that Karate people do...its techno speak and I had to translate to a Japanese person what a Mawashi Geri was, what Mae Geri was ext. its kind of like she would read the Japanese written word and say it to me so... ƒtƒƒ“ƒgƒLƒbƒN was read as "Mae Geri" and I told her it was Front kick...she said that "Mae Geri" would mean "Kicking front" but was kind hard for them to picture if they never did Karate, they would think like a foot ball kick or something. Mawashi Geri or round house kick was not a direct translation and she had a very hard time understanding the work she was translating, like translating a technical book about neurology or something...which I kind of had to do for her and her husband.....both in my Anat and bio class.
Fact is that the use of Karate terms in English and or Japanese it techno terms or activity specific terms. Think of it if you were to look at a white belt child...a rather young one who has never seen Karate, Teen age mutant turtles or what have you and say "okay throw a round house kick" they will give you a blank look.
The use of Japanese terms in Karate can be seen as Techno babble or Techno speak as well. We can just as easily use a term Mae Geri for front kick with beginners as they will associate the movements of "front kicking" with the term Mae Geri and that is fine, its when we start using terms for directions, sides ext that we are treading on a potentially confusing possition.
basically I think its okay to use Japanese terms for techniques, but when it comes to which side or different actions, perhaps its best to say it in Engrish...er English!
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